Give me ONE reason why HRT is a positive thing and why REAL women can't be compared to trannies

Yes so why are you doing it to yourself?

Stop right there. We're sick of your fucking trap cult being imposed on us, it's deranged. You're telling the mentally broken of this bored to just be more feminine and their life will be better. It won't, and you're just fucked in the head.

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You seem to misunderstand my position. I do not support transsexuals. If you all just went up and disappeared over night I wouldnt care one bit. I dont think some MLK quote applies to my views. I am not a "moderate".

I'm assuming you both think transgenderism is still a mental disorder.
This is false, any ACTUALLY intelligent person would be able to realize this easily.
Transgenderism is in the DSM5, next time you want to directly disagree with 99+% of all doctors be my guest, just don't expect your opinions to be right

>nearly every doctor in the world disagrees with you tho
I wonder about that. If you speak out against transitioning you will be viciously attacked by progressives and lose your job. Plus almost all of psychology is leftist to begin with. I have many concerns that nobody wants to address. Like how the transitioning idea was founded by a crazy guy who forced a child to transition and castrated him, grew up as if he was a girl, then the guy announced it a success and that men and women can transition and it's all social conditioning. The poor kid killed himself later. Also it seems like transitioning is a very poor reducer of suicide attempts, and many regret transitioning and use it as a poor coping mechanism in order to gain attention that they desperately crave. There is no way to distinguish these objectively either, it's all about how the person thinks they feel, which can very often be misguided.

I don't know what the answer is, but claiming because authority figures with a near universal bias confirm their biases isn't a very convincing argument.

So you're just against popularizing it in the media, as you still see it as some form of degeneracy?

Never said that it was, don't change the subject fuckhead. (Me)

Anime girls aren't real girls either, user.

Something being judged in one way or the other doesn't mean anything. There is no "right" or "wrong" opinion about classification you fucking pseud, hiding behind "muh dsm5" as a source of authority makes you look moronic.

If you openly speak out against transitioning today in America, I would not be surprised if you lost your job. You HAVE to willingly bar yourself from the truth to believe so, and anyone that does that is incompetent in my mind. You don't have any right to your job, and if your boss sees it fit to no longer have you around because your "beliefs" were that much of a hindrance than it is probably a good thing.
I have never actually heard anything about the story you told in the middle there, what was the doctors name?
High suicide rates are a serious problem that seems to plagued the transgender community, it's a very complicated topic. We can't pin down exactly why people commit suicide, usually it's a thing that slowly builds up throughout their life until one day they snap.
I have seen some studies that I could link if you want of transgender kids that grew up in accepting households having suicide rates up to 20x lower.
Of course I'm not going to change your mind with a Jow Forums post, but if you could imagine, just for a second, that maybe living your whole life struggling with internal conflicts that are openly disregarded as a mental disorder by most people who have no idea what it's like.
Living your life without a person like you to all yourself with. Where the only opinions you see constantly rehashed everywhere are slandering your very existence.
Dontcha think that might raise ones chances for suicide a bit?

>You HAVE to willingly bar yourself from the truth to believe so
This is blatantly false and anyone who understands how gender and sex actually work would know there is no such thing as innate gender and as such, no such thing as gender dysphoria.
It's a fetish, based off of gender roles.

>You're telling the mentally broken of this bored to just be more feminine and their life will be better. It wont, and you're just fucked in the head
>Mentally broken
>Fucked in the head
Generally terms used to describe those with a mental disorder

I am against treating it like it's okay. It is a serious issue, these people dont need others to tell them how "strong" they are. I also dont think that "transitioning" solves any long term problems. I feel like people are focusing on treating the symptoms instead of the actual problems. Like I said, it is a biological fact that you can not magically change your gender (dont start with the whole gender != sex thing please, I am using the word I was taught). As such it seems cruel to me to celebrate these issues and entertain their fantasies despite knowing that it can never actually be the real thing. Dont even get me started on SRS.

The fact that you say gathering information from a source that the smartest people in our society gather from, that has been written over the course of decades by hundreds of people way smarter than yourself, and is recognized today as the main tool for diagnosing actual mental disorders is moronic, should depict a lot about your life bro

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I hope you understand that gender and sex are two different things.
I'm sure you've heard this a million times already, and probably ignored any sentence that starts with it, which is why I say you bar yourself from information , but gender is a social construct, I only wish you could comprehend what that means

It says nothing about my life, being in grad school for math. These doctors are morons or pushing an agenda. They aren't anywhere near the smartest people in society or even academia. You're hiding behind a result that was forced by political activism as vindication for a false ideology based on objectively false and disproven axioms (that gender is innate).
I will say it again - there IS NO such thing as innate gender and as such THERE IS NO such thing as gender dysphoria.

Yes, they are different things.
Sex is real and gender doesn't exist. As such, there is no way to be "gender dysphoric".
A guy performing as the current gender construct of femininity is still a human male (man) just acting in a way that we've arbitrarily decided is not the way men are supposed to act and the way women are supposed to. But none of it is real. It's all bullshit and positing that it's in some way evidence of gender is hurtful to actual progressives who actually want to change this bullshit.
I have nothing against people doing what they want. But they aren't the other sex. I don't even care if you pump yourselves full of hormones. Do what you want. But your sex can't change (yet).

>dont start with the whole gender != sex thing please
This is the main problem with this topic. Much like abortion, someone who views a fetus as a life, vs someone who views it as a few cells, can never come to a logical conclusion, as the basis of their arguments are different.
And in most cases, changing these basic, usually mostly philisophical views, takes time, time that many don't have.
I plead with you, if you take away just 1 thing from this thread, please at least make an attempt to do this.
Actually gather information from a wide variety of sources, make sure that you expose yourself to as much information as possible, that way you can make the most information arguments, that's a good thing right?
If you believe that what you say is the truth, hearing opinions of the other side should not falter you, and if it does, then that may be a sign of something

Lurker here. I'd intrigued & would like to see a reasoned response to this argument from any pro-trans person.

Which part of what I'm saying is wrong? Are you getting confused with who's who? I dont care about the gender/sex thing because it simply doesnt exist in my language. I do realize what people mean when they use either, I just learned to use gender in school is all.

>if you speak up against the problems of transitioning you should lose your job. Also, all the experts concur that transitioning is the correct treatment
Hopefully you see how it is a poor argument then. Also, why would you bar research into this topic if what you are saying is correct.
>what was the doctors name
john money
>Dontcha think that might raise ones chances for suicide a bit
Jews in nazi germany (even when you localize it to concentration camps) had a significantly lower suicide rate than transgender people. Don't think that's a good argument

So here's the cool thing about gender, it's a pretty uniquely human trait right?
We don't give a fuck about our dogs gender as our dog can't communicate with us like how other humans can.
That said we generally just refer to our dogs as their birth sex, no problem with that.
But here's the cool thing about humans, we can communicate, and that's why we invented gender as a concept. It's a spectrum that helps others identify who you are.
Many of today's gender roles are not even sex-clusive, what are some things that make you think femeninity
Long hair?
Shaved legs?
Painted nails?
Compassion? Cx
Etc... None of these things are specific to natural born females, but if you see someone with all of these traits, you assume they are female.
Inb4 tits retard
What about tomboys, girls with a cups, anyone else who didn't develope as much as others, would you say these people are not female?

I want kids, plain and simple. Another guy wouldn't be able to give me kids. So I settle for the next best thing: woman.

This desu. I have no idea what the difference is between a tomboy and a ftm.

That's exactly the problem. You are attempting to continue the existence of gender roles, female submission and male dominance, males not being allowed to be passionate, females needing to be nurturing, all these other bullshit things in order to satiate your fetish.
No, us progressives aren't gonna have it user. There is no "spectrum" the damn thing doesn't exist in the first place. A large woman who likes being dominant is just as much a woman as any other, a small man who likes being submissive is just as much a man as any other. women don't have to shave or have long hair, men don't have to be emotionless or hairy, none of these things are real. The dimorphism of our species isn't that big, it's no reason to start delineating anything into boxes specific to either sex.
I produce spermatozoa gametes, I have XY chromosomes, I am male. AND THAT'S FINE. I can wear dresses if I want to (I personally don't) but that doesn't make me a woman. I can be into dolls or whatever, I can be sexually submissive or non confrontational and it in no way makes me less of a man or more of a woman or "feminine" or "masculine" because these things don't exist. People are just people.

You can't just exclude a word in the English language from "your language" and say that's ok. Gender and sex are two different things that you kind of have to educate yourself about before having this discussion, otherwise people may write you off as a fool, perpetuating the far right being silenced meme.
And if you don't want to do so then stay out of it, your opinions as someone who has never felt, and probably never will feel gender dysphoria, combined with the fact that you refuse to even do basic research to find out the actual definition of a word before using it to argue with others, mean nothing.

I meant that literally, you dolt.
English is not my native language. In my first language, gender and sex translate to the same thing.

HRT makes you cute and yes, transwomen are real women.

I agreed with most but
>feminine or masculine don't exist
femininity and masculinity are the traits and characteristics associated that facilitate their gender role.
Man-protector/provider. Strength, height, intelligence, confidence, leadership, and charisma are all masculine traits
Female-mate selector/child carer. Empathetic, picky, sensitive, tolerant, compassionate, deference, shy/timid, passive

Yes, being less masculine still means you are a man, but let's not pretend there are not massive differences between men and women and you can't associate the traits that make them different with the sex they are more predominant in.

How do I get a trap lover?

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I can't. Trannies are garbage trash scum and should be executed.

They "exist" as fake constructs that aren't innate in the sex that they are supposedly representing. There is nothing innate about those masculine characteristics in males or the other in females. They are gendered in society to be that way.
The only reason there are massive differences is because a massive society massively genders massive amounts of people into those roles.
Saying that males have to be strong tall intelligent confident leaders that are charasmatic and women have to be empathetic picky sensitive tolerant blah blah is exactly the problem.
Men don't have to be anything. Women don't have to be anything. People are just people. In a society that doens't care, you WILL see equal distributions of all of this across all people.

I don't know, ask /lgbt/? We certainly can't help you.

My point at the beginning was that you don't have a right to your job. If your boss sees you do something incompetent and wants to fire you that's their decision. It's up to them what they decide incompetence is, you wouldn't go up to your boss and spout Jow Forums worthy Nazi propaganda and expect to still be employed, especially if your job has any social implications on the company as a total.
I'm not saying you should lose your job for stating your views, but if your views are retarded, don't get mad when you piss off others.

I'll look into John Money later

>People are commiting suicide more than Jews in concentration camps
Ignoring all problems with this argument initially I'll say this
If transgender people are commiting this much suicide, then why not try what's actually proven to help instead of writing off their lives as mental disorders

>HRT makes you cute and yes, transwomen are real women.
Lmao I hope this is unironic and this poster's having a laff.

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What language might that be?

Trannies are wretched abominations.

From the perspective of a tranny, is there a better option than transitioning? A better option than what seems to be the fix to a huge issue in their life? If not, do we just start denying then transitioning if it reaches that point?

I'm not picking a side, just throwing the question out there...

>Gender and sex are two different things
Nah.
>In my first language, gender and sex translate to the same thing.
Don't let that retarded tranny mess with your brain man, they do mean the same thing and no one contested that until ~5 years ago with all these tranny nutcases trying to re-define words.

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I don't think from the perspective of a tranny any more than I would think from the perspective of a rat. They're a nuisance to be exterminated, you don't put yourself in their shoes because they are a flawed creation. Like trying to see from the perspective of a coprophile. You just don't do it, for your own mental sanity. Lest you start thinking evil thoughts as they do.

I have 0 issue with this post, but why does transgenderism often overlap with sex and degenerate shit. I can kind of understand gay, because that's based on who they are sexually attracted to (and they seems to make it as unappealing to support as possible), but trans stuff... Why?

>there is nothing innate about those characteristics
It is literally in the DNA. Can't get more innate than that. Men were selected for the traits with the higher survival chance and women were the same. These traits exist within us today and are responsible for the differences we observe between the sexes today.
>the only reason there are massive differences is because society
You are just making a claim and assuming it to be correct.

In fact, the opposite appears to be true. If you rank order countries by their gender equality and then look at what professions women go into, the gap between the sexes increases. How does that support your "people are blank slates" theory?

And I'm not arguing they have to be anything, simply that they are. You cannot argue an ought from an is.

I'm not even arguing that they shouldn't be able to, just that would explain the echo chamber

I am not writing them off, I want the best treatment for their problems. I would argue that if the treatment is indeed ineffective, pretending that it is great is doing a disservice to those suffering. You don't even consider it a mental disorder (i think), so in my view it is you who is doing the harm here. You won't solve a problem by pretending it doesn't exist

>It is literally in the DNA
Confirmed for not knowing anything about this stuff. The conversation is over now, have a nice day and actually do what you're telling other people to do and study and learn how this shit ACTUALLY works.

Because we're humans just like the rest of you?
Of course someone who is of adult age, especially one as focused on their body as someone who is/has transitioned is going to be interested in sexual things, especially if they were barred off from what they wanted as a child.
Contrapoints has a great video on the topic and all of AGP, if you want to try and understand give it a watch.

Damn bro, you're right. I wish I was as smart as you. YOu totally OWNED me

Um ignoring the first half and responding to my
Many people come to the conclusion that transgender people have a higher suicide rate that is unaffected by society, however this is not true. Every study I've seen, including those used by the right, the 40% study I mentioned earlier, has overwhelming evidence to the contrary. In the same study people who were openly out had suicide rates almost 17% higher than those who closet. The issue is with society, and it's not an easy one to fix.
Many people had similar arguments during other major civil revolutions, which I'm sure you would disagree with today as to not sound racist. The way I see it, it's just a matter of time before enough bigotted people die out and we can all live peacefully

Market value is decided by supply and demand.
HRT "decreases" the amount of men, therefore decreasing the amount of competition men face.
Also if another man ends up going out with a trap, then there are effectively 2 men removed from the sexual market.
The only concern would be girls dating traps but I don't believe they are all that interested at this point.

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Yes I did.
Please point out any DNA protein or structure that codes "men are dominant and women submissive".
Please show how the literal hundreds of examples of societies that do not have our gender roles are such because the people in them are "genetically different" and not because they just have different roles.

This was rhetorical obviously. The point stands though. There is NO DNA structure or any other bio-essential bullshit that encodes for males or females of our species to act in a certain way, or other species. We've been able to change the sex dynamics and behaviors of other primates and mammals. For example we've made baboon packs act completely matriarchal and completely different from how they're "innately" supposed to be. How could that be? Well it's because GENDER DOESN'T EXIST AND ISN'T ENCODED IN DNA OR ANYWHERE ELSE. Biotruths aren't real. There is no such thing as "males are the dominant protectors females are the submissive nurturers".

Gender is the cultural interpretation of sex. You claim it's totally arbitrary because of the grey areas yet refuse to accept these grey areas are the statistical minority. You cannot force the wider society to accept your cultural interpretation of something. Especially when that paradigm loses out to the far more proliferated paradigm which is based in scientific fact. You are a mutation, an aberration. You are not the majority. Accept that you are a deviant instead of pushing your ideology on everyone else.
Honestly what happened to the lgbt community? They used to be like: "ye I'm a faggot so what?". Now it's all being a big gay bitch about everything.

Hmmm, really make you think.

The ncbi offers interesting perspectives.
[Also as a medfag here's a little advice for you, doctors who do transition operations are only in it for the money, back in the cafeteria or breakroom they constantly laugh at you freaks.

Link me to this baboon study.
There is actually another instance of this I can think of. The mouse utopia experiment. Look it up. The jist is they put a single population of mice in a ln enclosure and gave them everything they needed to survive indefinitely. Their social structure eventually degenerated and groups of male mice turned to homosexuality.
But I don't fully confide in the study as you cannot reliably draw parallels between animals and humans.

John money was no doctor you absolute fucking faggot. He was a pedophile who openly preformed human experimentation. His "discoveries" on gender were based on an experiment so bad that the two boys involved ended up killing themselves later on, yet money claimed it was a success. Fuck that guy and everything he's ever touched.

Not that he's not a disgusting human.

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We are a sexually dimorphic species. Hormones dictate what you are geared for.
Men have loads more upper body strength and bone density. They are more aggressive and less risk averse so they kill themselves and weed out the weak genes.
On the contrary women have larger fat stores for more energy to support childbirth. Have breasts for breast feeding and are risk averse to stop them from killing themselves when taking care of kids.
The social paradigm is merely an extension of this primal state. Every day we stray further from it the closer we get to societal collapse.

This basically. Just stay away from fags and trannies while they end up doing degenerate things.
Even women who are more vocal about social issues don't actually care about it. They just pretend to care on social media so Cuckberg doesn't ban them and faggots demand their bosses to fire em'.

Frankly, I don't consider psychiatrists to be legitimate physicians, they come from a field of study that took frued seriously for God sakes. But the more you know. I guess I always assumed he had no scientific credentials because of his self description as a sexologist. No amount of credentials can make his theory not apeshit on a cracker though.

>transgenderism isnt a mental illness, its just in the official manual of mental illnesses as one!

Okay edgelord. Im just thinking about what can actually help this group with such high suicide rates

Lmao, I'm genuinely sorry, I didn't know you weren't capable of forming complex thoughts.
Protip: Read things before you talk about them

Wow bud, you oughta work on your reading comprehension.

Fuck forgot attachment, oreganoli.

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>Because we're humans just like the rest of you?

Yes and? What point are you trying to make here, that being human means things have to devolve into sex and degenerate shit? I'm asking why a movement to gain help and acceptance for who you are - not who you are attracted to! - champions sexual things and puts it at the forefront so much, always in your face, that it's inseparable from the movement?

I will try to watch this video, but I'm not satisfied with this answer

Take a sugoi angery face >:(

And fucking captcha has gotten even worse. What the fuck is this shit?

I'm not sure what your point is?
The picture you posted literally contradicts itself, did you edit that?
The ncbi is pretty pro trans, and if you're advocating for conversion therapy then you're really far from their views

Lmk if you can finish the video and we can continue :)

I know the movement sucks but don't think every tranny is like that or agrees with that. some just want to live their life.

Nope it's not an edited article at all. Perhaps a doctor writing the statement went against the wrong think policies?
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3312187/.

Also I am a Doctor, and because this place is anonymous I feel comfortable posting my real thoughts here. The ncbi's agreement with transiton surgery is entirely political. There is no scientific proof that this helps with their depression, or rates of suicide, or whatever. And it certainly does not make them change gender or sex. Anti-schitzopheretics have actually been shown to be more effective treatment. But of course we're supposed to perscribe a dick chop, because it makes us more money and because it's the politically correct thing to say.

All these trannies defending themselves

You have a mental condition, get help

Okay, wait for me my darling, i love you :p

And the fact that there seems to be a bit of hypocrisy in every argument like that.
You don't see them complaining about how straight someone is, or how cis someone is. What's wrong in feeling pride in what many people see as a hindrance.
And for people who are "supportive" of lgbtq movements, but opposed to the, "rampant sexual degeneracy" I redirect you to

I don't want people harming themselves. Being gay does tend to up your rates of contracting STD's and a plethora of other shit. Transvestites are actual fucking loons, and society is cruel enough to encourage them into their lunacy.

Transition surgery is like surgically attaching bluetooth speakers into someone's ears that constantly whisper voices to them. You are conforming reality to their delusions and that is a retarded way to treat a mental condition.

First of all this article is entirely about SRS, which I had not mentioned once before, but ok.
Secondly the article still supports SRS as a form of therapy for transsexuals experiencing body dysmorphia
Most of my arguments were for most other aspects of transgendered life, but I'm sorry you couldn't come to that conclusion after reading them.
That along with the fact that you can't even read the articles you post really makes me doubt you're actually a doctor, so keep reppin your deep state memes homie

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Okay faggot, I only posted the article to show you the picture I showed you was real. I know it stated that transitional surgery was a good thing, but the logic they used for prefering it over psychotherapy was straight up self contradictory.

Also basically all of your "arguments" have been pure appeal to authority or ad hominem falacies. Which makes sense because your position dosen't have a single leg to stand on without them.

I know. It's just a bit off-putting to see the movement hijacked by sex stuff, because it becomes a bit more difficult to defend/support

I don't have an issue with you pointing this out. Straight people do say this kind of thing while turning a blind eye to their own, because it's "normal". I, however, do not. I also hate sexualisation of other things, it's just difficult to give a "straight" example that affects both sexes and is for acceptance of your sex/gender. Women's rights is probably the closest, but i don't think it's adequate because it's not for both genders. Although, non-sexualised areas of this movement are easier to see, granted they have a bigger, organised platform, but still, it's a bit annoying that i find it difficult to find the non-sexualised parts of the transgender movement.

Captcha is cancer

This whole post is cope

All of these are me
I try to keep all of my arguments pretty free of scummy tactics like ad hominems and logical fallacies. However this is Jow Forums and I can call whoever I think is retarded retarded.
If you're pointing to me calling out your claims to be a doctor despite having no information gathering skills as an ad hominem, then stop being such a fucking snowflake.
>Okay faggot
Ad hominem ree I googled how to win an argument and just found out what that means
You're also still vouching for psychotherapy which is pretty much universally shown to not work.
This is literally the same thing all you bigots tried to say about homosexuals 30 years ago, how do you not realize this

Me again On this "white moderate", is this what I'm meant to look at?

>"I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizens Councilor or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to order than to justice."

It must be the wrong quote, right? Because i don't know what this has to do with me, or why it's even an argument? Walking around naked and shit is not justice. Asking for the sexual imagery to be toned down is not an injustice

I'm specifically thinking of when i have to explain the transgender movement to young kids and what we're met with is disgusting behaviour and images

>it's the "everyone who doesn't agree with me is a leftist/jew/numale/cuck" argument

>gender is a social construct
Except that's also wrong. Gender is not the same thing as gender roles. It's the neurological component of sex.
This shit is well-documented and backed by neuroscience, it's not the SJW meme you pol retards you make it out to be.

>I am doctor

>Anti-schitzopheretics

doubtful

Nice to see you tranny shills don't respond to any of my responses
If I'm wrong then tell me why I'm wrong.

Your responses hinge entirely on the idea that gender is a "social construct" which next to no trans people actually agree on.
Gender is a configuration of your brain, it has nothing to do with gender roles.

>be male
>want to be more feminine for reasons
>grow my hair out, learn makeup
>considering orchiectomy and HRT
>totally pass
>still identify as male

>laugh at the idea of trannies getting mad because i dont identify as a girl

Ironically the guy your talking about committed suicide for reasons mostly unrelated to the experiment. Iirc he lost a ton of money along side various other things

The best one of course, German.
I have actually heard uni leftist cucks unironically use the word "gender" in normal, German conversation and it made me want to throw up. Americans spreading their shit baka.

I was hoping you could transpose the argument yourself, here try reading the NEXT SENTENCE, "...justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;""
Still confused?

Found it. David Reimer
youtu.be/SLFGMWoQaCU

You're barking up the wrong tree bud

>No one's argues with the retard
>Retard wins

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>not a mental illness
>in the standard manual of mental illnesses

??

All I got from that is that forcing someone into a gender they aren't comfortable with is bad... I wonder why he ended up killing himself.
If only there were correlations to make