The brain doesnt give rise to consciousness, consciousness gives rise to the brain

>we
Just because something is the popular opinion doesnt mean its correct. Learn to think for yourself

>Just because something is the popular opinion doesnt mean its correct
so i take it that you can refute all the counterarguments to various dualist theories of the mind then?

The same way fucking with shit inside your TV will change the picture but won't affect the transmission.
Consciousness is fundamental and the only thing that exists. Everything arises from it and it cannot be destroyed because it is all that is.

>The same way fucking with shit inside your TV will change the picture but won't affect the transmission.
but radio waves are entirely physical and deterministic

>Consciousness is fundamental and the only thing that exists. Everything arises from it and it cannot be destroyed because it is all that is.
Why?

The universe is not deterministic

That's not the point. The point is that the radio waves exist outside of the television and whatever you do to the television does not affect the radio waves out in the ether.
Nothing else makes sense.

not this fr*cking retardo again.

so the brain is a deterministic machine that just interprets signals sent from the magical consciousness ghost that lives in each one of us

is that about it?

interesting

>The point is that the radio waves exist outside of the television and whatever you do to the television does not affect the radio waves out in the ether.
so what? not sure how's that related to the topic

so, riddle me this then. since the brain is a physical entity, it must act in a deterministic way. if it does, then clearly there's no non-physical consciousness influencing it. if it doesn't, then there must exist a way in which the consciousness affects the brain. please describe how that happens

>not this fr*cking retardo again.
What?

No. You are the consciousness, you merely inhabit the brain

The "ghost" doesn't live inside of us -- we exist everywhere all at once... and sure you could think of the body and brain as a deterministic machine that we ride for the sake of experience like a child playing with toys or video games or whatever.
I don't think the non-physical aspect of our consciousness really drives anything -- it's more along for the ride. However, I think consciousness is what created these machines kind of like how we create dream worlds. It's just that this reality is on a different level due to the scale of the consciousness that created it.

The universe isnt deterministic. So that disproves this theory of yours.

The laws of physics are emergent from a universe that was timeless and completely uniform. As ordered as is possible. Things we take for granted like space and time are only possible in this bubble of disordered energy. Consciousness requires time to function, therefore consciousness cannot be outside the realm of spacetime. The universe did not need consciousness to get to this point, there's no reason to assume it needs it in the future.

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so the consciousness does nothing but it's totally there, right?

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That isnt true. People have had experiences transcending time.

It doesn't do nothing. It is having an experience.

When you do a thing, there are measurable changes in the brain.

the consciousness just sits there having the time of its life while my physical body does things. coolio

yes, measurable physical changes in the physical brain.

>yes, measurable physical changes in the physical brain.
Yes, yes indeed

Humans are basically giant bags of chemical interactions, ordered in such a way to self-sustain efficiently both as an individual organism and a genetic legacy. We're amazingly complex, especially our brains, which are by far the most complex natural objects we know of. That doesn't mean there's anything special about the mechanisms which allow for our brains to exist.
Just because we can experience time slowing down, stopping, speeding up, warping in weird ways doesn't change what your relativistic time is compared to some object point of reference. As far as your atoms are concerned, everything is normal timewise.
Our brains make an extremely simplified representation of the outside world. This includes our perception of time. Your brain is just playing make up for you. The alternative is rejecting truth completely, and realizing nothing "actually" exists, and the only thing you can prove is that "existence" must be true, because it can be questioned. That's it, you won't even be able to define what "existence" is, just that it is true.

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You're not really wrong about the consciousness, but you're looking at it assbackwards for no particular reason. The consciousness might be what "validates" the material universe in a way, but that doesn't necessarily mean the material universe cannot exist on its own, or even that the consciousness cannot possibly be a part of the material universe (logically, it should be part of it).

what the fuck are all you people talking about? I'm a total brainlet, do I need to go watch some Joe Rogan videos to understand any of this?

Consciousness can't give rise to something without reference to an existing thing. There is no such thing as pure consciousness: as soon as it is completely empty, it dissolves. This is the nature of Jhana.

It's not impossible that consciousness forming is what retroactively created the universe's past though. And things existing before time itself formed is kind of a stupid discussion. Not necessarily agreeing with OP, just being devil's advocate.

>conciousness not bound by laws of physics
lmao nerd I'll bash your brain in, gimme an adress

You're not a brainlet, you're just a consciousness-let.
According to OP, anyway.

That's something of a fatalist world view. Consciousness is shaped by our immediate circumstances. If you were a genius intellect in say English and were thrown into a culture that spoke a different unrelated language. No matter how intelligent you are, you're not a genius you're a fish out of water. I think that sort of adaption to things is more of a contributor to consciousness being what it is.

He's saying the cart pulls the donkey, and the body is adapting to what the brain does. Which seems technically correct in some aspects. A person is a sum of their memories and experiences. The decisions you make as you grow effect how you grow. So in some sense it did make for brains improving over time in some ways although there are more nuances.

Consciousness can exist outside of spice time, you just can't imagine it.

And the point is that its not things that make consciousness happen, its consciousness that makes those things happen

read a basic guide to philosophy of mind and disregard all this spiritual bullshit about consciousness being the universe or whatever

Consciousness is the donkey, the brain is the cart. Or to be more accurate, the brain is the donkey and the cart, consciousness is the man sitting on the cart

Things didn't exist before time. Space was completely uniform. Asking where you were before the big bang would be like asking where you are on a perfectly uniform sphere in a dark void. It's a pointless question because every spot is exactly the same in every single aspect. Even turning around would look exactly the same.
It's impossibly unlikely that a consciousness formed from nothing to make everything which also happened to retroactively create an event which also happens to neatly explain the origin of the universe. People don't believe big bang because it's popular, they believe it because there's overwhelming evidence that physics still cannot fully explain, even today (Dark energy)/
It's an extremely likely explanation, even if you assume it's something that's possible.

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to get this straight, there are many individual consciousnesses, that exist everywhere, all at once, perhaps in a higher-dimensional plane or something like that?

and to the second user: this entire universe is a shared figment of these consciousnesses? what is the interaction between these entities?

fine then; pseudo-deterministic machine. literally nothing about my theory has changed.

Going with the whole flatland thing, it's possible that conciousness exists in another dimension(s) and we have no way of perceiving it - there could be 5th dimensional strings attached to every nueron in your brain making them fire in the way they do and you can only see the neurons firing.

>That's something of a fatalist world view. Consciousness is shaped by our immediate circumstances. If you were a genius intellect in say English and were thrown into a culture that spoke a different unrelated language. No matter how intelligent you are, you're not a genius you're a fish out of water. I think that sort of adaption to things is more of a contributor to consciousness being what it is
Because our brain is still the boat we use to navigate the sea of the universe. You can only go as fast as the boat allows you to. In some sense, we are trapped by our brain, it is our prison. On the other hand we are cradled by it, it is our home.

Consciousness is a stream. That means it *requires* time. Time is something that only exists thanks to the big bang. It is not some special property of reality. The Universe existed in a state without time before the big bang.

If that were true you could exert your will directly on reality just by thinking it. If you think you can do that then perhaps you should use your ability to do something amazing, or get yourself a ton of money. You're going to have a hard time convincing others of your view on reality though.

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Read thisIt will help get the point across

That was actually going to be my next point. Consciousness is the cart. The example of the brain being the cart can work. It takes some circumstances, but if you put the cart first it's not going to drag the donkey ussually. Unless you do what op did and push the cart down a really big slope, then it's just going to drag it kicking and screaming. While 9/10 typically it's the donkey that pulls the cart so while it's plausible, it's only plausible after you figured out how to build a cart and that would require donkies to pull rather than the cart pulling the donkey.
Yes I agree.

you mean flatterland?

if a state in unchanging with respect to time, does that really indicate that there is no time?

This guy has the right idea

>consciousness is a stream
To you. Time is an illusion. This sentence alone decisively disproves your theory. If consciousness was bound by time, it would be impossible to be conscious of timelessness.

I think those that have thought this through understand it to be that your consciousness is just a facet of a bigger consciousness thus we are all part of a bigger thing and actually all the same. This isn't so strange when we realise that what we consider to be our own self, as one thing is just a whole collection of little selves inhabiting the same space. Think of the you that is compelled to trap-fap and the you that is disgusted by it after.

Yes. Time is a physical process that involves sub-atomic particles interacting. If you've ever heard about things like "spaghettification" around a black hole, this happens because as your fall into the black hole, your particles closest to it start moving extremely fast compared to the particles furthest away. The fastest your particles can possibly interact however is at the speed of light, which means your particles need to cover more space to cause a single instance in time.
This is also why time moves slower for you as you travel close to the speed of light. Your particles experience less time because they are spread over space, so the interactions must travel greater distances to cause an instant in time.
It's completely physical and really just a measure of lots of particle interactions in succession. Those interactions don't cover the same space/time as each other, which is why our clocks change with speed.
This is all extremely simplified, and I don't know General Relativity. But this is the gist of how time works under quantum mechanics. Hope I made it comprehensible.

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>Your particles experience less time because they are spread over space, so the interactions must travel greater distances to cause an instant in time.
To add onto this: Because your particles have more space between time, and interactions have to cover that space, it means for people who are "stationary" have multiple particle interactions in the span of your one interaction. The slower you go, the faster your particles interact, the faster you go the slower your particles interact.

>Hope I made it comprehensible

Yeah, you really did. I'm amazed I've never heard it explained in this way. I'm pretty sure this makes complete sense, I'm just an inch away from actual comprehension. I'll think about it.

You just blew that user out and I like this analogy

>Time is an illusion
No, it's a physical process. If you want to argue time is an illusion, then why aren't you just admitting everything is an illusion, other than existence?

>If consciousness was bound by time, it would be impossible to be conscious of timelessness.
It is impossible for consciousness to be timeless. Just because you experience something that you interpret at time stopping doesn't mean time actually stops for you. If your time stopped you would cease to exist. This is also physically possible.

t. Philosophy connoisseur fag here
Here's my theory.
Consciousness comes from brain matter, but as our epistemilogical knowledge of the World derives from our consciousness, there's this illusion that it might come from somewhere else, but that's just an illusion. Consciousness definitely comes from the brain, but as our way of knowing things comes from our "immaterial" consciousness and we have no knowledge of the "thing-in-itself", it's easy for an illusion of consciousness arising somewhere else to arise, but it definitely comes from material sources.

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Is it possible to be conscious of timelessness? That we can think about it as a practical concept is one thing, but it's not the same as imagining the actual experience.
>inb4 drugfags

2/10, one of the worst concepts ITT, sausage namefags

Its literally an established scientific axiom that time is an illusion

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I think you are spot on.

Do you mean this?
The brain is an organ that, through unknown and possibly unknowable mechanisms, gives rise to consciousness, a process of the brain that interprets information through sensory inputs. The process itself is not physical, even though the mechanisms though which it operates are.

Fuck you dude. My theory is good, you idealistfags can go fuck themselves.

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Not he didn't. The person he replied to said transmitter not receiver. If you destroy the thing that transmits the signal/frequency, then there will be no signal/frequency.

Someone with a decent understanding of time saying that, and you with no understanding of it saying that are two different things.

Consider this though:

Well to be fair you do exert your will onto reality just by thinking it whenever you do something with your body. After all you are not your arms and legs, they are outside objects that move when you think they should, and so is anything else that they move.

Also the statement that time exists is confusing, it's like saying length exists. I would prefer not to use such messy language that's so open to interpretation.

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Consciousness exists purely in time, there's no other way of measuring it whatsoever. How does it directly come from physical matter that exists in time and space?

Einstein was wrong in that quote. People like to continue quoting him, but science has progressed past his understanding of time. Time is a process that happens at the quantum scales of reality, where general relativity is proven to be wrong. Einstein's quote pre-supposes a deterministic universe, which is wrong.

>My theory is good
It doesn't explain the accounts of people who have had verifiable near death experiences; ones where they observed things outside of their body in locations away from their body while they were unconscious and then verified what they saw with others after they returned to consciousness.
Sure, you can say they're lying and that's fair such that only those people who had the experiences are able to know the truth.

Well I think he's saying that the frequency still exist even if the signal is destroyed. I'm not sure what the point is but he was not necessarily refuted here.

You're conflating two definitions of consciousness. Consciousness as the observer, the part of you that experiences existence, that is one thing. Consciousness including all your feelings, thoughts and memories, that which produces thoughts leading to physical action, is a completely different concept. Should clarify which one you're talking about.

I never mentioned consciousness lol

Oh, the signal that has already been produced and transmitted -- yes. I'll agree with that, but it also means that there will be an end to it which is what really matters in my mind.

>the point is that its not things that make consciousness happen, its consciousness that makes those things happen

Signal=/=frequency. Signals travel over frequencies

>Well to be fair you do exert your will onto reality just by thinking it whenever you do something with your body. After all you are not your arms and legs, they are outside objects that move when you think they should, and so is anything else that they move.
How can you prove any of that exists though? What if you're in a simulation, or a brain in a vat? You can't prove those are true or false. Assuming my senses aren't complete out of line with the essence of reality at human scales, then you still can't prove whether or not its "you" exerting free will, or your brain making you feel like you are. I don't even have an idea how anyone would go about solving this.

> I would prefer not to use such messy language that's so open to interpretation.
General Relativity and Quantum Field Theory are what you're looking for then. If you want to communicate these concepts accurately the only way to do so is with mathematics and technical jargon. I'm relaying the digested overview of the subjects from multiple sources who gave corroborating information.

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>Consciousness is a stream.

You experience conciousness as a stream. That doesn't mean it is. What if consciousness is analogous to an endless expanse of water and "you" are like the inside of a pipe, for argument's sake a circle drawn around the inner surface so all you can see at any point is yourself and that pipe is being propelled through the water of consciousness - you'll perceive it as a stream but you're actually just moving through a stationary body of water.

I'm not saying that's it but that's pine way you could be wrong.

>Nothing else makes sense.
Why not?

Truth is not bound by people

The discovery of the higher dimensions only further proves the point, it doesnt undo it. To undo it, the existance of the 4th dimension has to be refuted. We have only discovered more dimensions, not less.

Time is a 3rd dimensional being experiencing the 4th dimensions one slice at a time. Its an illusion.

youtu.be/N0WjV6MmCyM

No my man. You are a smart guy but you are wrong on this

This explains why one might assume what you did.

And this explains how its possible

>tfw your spirit signals get intercepted

> "you" exerting free will, or your brain making you feel like you are. I don't even have an idea how anyone would go about solving this.
Isn't it almost definitely the brain making you feel like you are? The only way the consciousness could have any decision making is if it had its own external processing power, which is quite a stretch, as opposed to just being the observing entity.
Though I personally view the brain making its decisions still as mine, as ultimately everything that makes you a person resides in the physical brain as memories, thoughts and processing ability.

For a split second I understood and then that understanding went away...
I get that signals aren't frequencies but that they travel via frequencies; like varying amplitude of a wave over a frequency -- or the period/time of the wave to repeat. However, my understanding is that the frequency is a function of the wave function (the signal) such that when the transmission of the signal stops, the propagation of the frequency after that point would also end along with the signal since the frequency is part of the signal.

What's the meaning of a consciousness outside the natural stream though? You are the person defined by your brain, if you remove your consciousness from that brain and put it in a sea of consciousness, or another brain, there's absolutely nothing to say that it's "your" consciousness.

That's a nice exercise in relativistic thinking, but time already has a clean, logical physical explanation. It seems more likely to me that consciousness is a function of our brains, which naturally exist in a universe with time. Time is part of our nature, down to our individual sub-atomic particles. But time is just a special property that didn't exist, and will go back to not existing in the very distant future.

Higher dimensions in mathematics don't mean higher dimensions in reality. There have been experiments that proved our space isn't 4 spacial dimensions and one time dimension as well. Sting theory wants the universe to have 10 dimensions though, so who knows.
Time is not a spacial dimension. We can order it into a past, present, future, but it's not as if physicists believe the past still physically exists.

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The frequency is like a road. The signal is the car. The road doesnt go away if the car drives off it. The frequency doesnt go away once you turn off your radio.

Everything has always existed or can due to time being infinitely slow or fast depending on the circumstances of the reality, possible there, and probability.

There is and is not; The great void & and pandemonium of happening on instance.

All possibilities flash in and out as quickly as they can fade how you determine it is all up to "you"

>>implying potential "you"

Just chucking in that when we're talking about you and me and we, we're talking about our "egos" if we take the eastern philosophies as correct.

That's the whole illusion thing that is alluded to - we consider our egos to be all that we are when in fact, they're simply the pilot our self uses to navigate us to where it wants to go.

The trouble is, the self has trouble communicating with the ego (even dreams are largely unintelligible until we learn to understand their language).

It's like our bodies are a boat, our egos are at the helm and our self is the sea in which we are sailing.

This may seem fanciful but that's because your ego has a big ego and can't accept that it's not all that there is.

In truth, the ego is the great deceiver that the Christians talk about - The devil doesn't put bad ideas in our heads - they're our ideas that we act upon. Our ego is the fallen angel who thinks it knows better than the self.

The self is the greater conciousness that exists without our bodies.

Don't get butthurt about this sounding religious - religions were always meant to bring us back in touch with our inner selves. The secrets the masons are accused of keeping are just western alchemy.

>Higher dimensions in mathematics don't mean higher dimensions in reality.
Then you cant argue physics, as its all based on mathematics. If the mathematics dont apply in this case, they never apply.

You might say that the propagation of energy at that frequency has ended. The frequency itself still exists as a discrete possibility among infinite other possible frequencies.

Don't ask me how this ties back to consciousness.

Frequencies are a made up concept for human understanding. Frequencies don't actually exist, only when there is a signal.

This will never make sense to me ;_:
Very nice post.
>The frequency itself still exists as a discrete possibility among infinite other possible frequencies.
Ok. This makes sense to me.
>Frequencies don't actually exist, only when there is a signal.
This was/is my thought. Glad I'm not crazy.

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Yes. We are talking about the Self here.

>It's like our bodies are a boat, our egos are at the helm and our self is the sea in which we are sailing.
This is not true. The sea is the universe, the body is the boat, the Self is the man sailing the boat the ego is the immature child self who only likes one part of the boat, and neglects the rest. We are not the sea itself though

I swear to fucking God you retards are in a world of your own and keep schizoposting all day long.

You = ego

Ego != self

I kind of agree with you and can't answer your question but if I could, I'd probably be able to levitate or turn water into wine.

All I can say is that the I that I think I am isn't the whole of the I that I am. I'm not really even the same person I was twenty years ago and yet I've inhabited the same body the whole time.

Just because you cant see it doesnt mean its not there
Think about it as i told you. Now imagine that there are many roads in a 3rd dimensional space, going over and under as well as side to side. Those are frequencies. The signal is a car traveling on one of those roads.

The problem with these kinds of threads is that the schizos come in and they see a lot of babble they don't understand and think they're home.