So I've been reading up on Sandow's light dumbell system, where you basically go through a daily set of exercises using 5lb dumbells focusing on contracting the shit out of your muscles while you do the exercise.
The theory being that basically a heavy weight just forces you to contract hard to move it, so just contract it yourself pusssssy.
I've done a bunch of lifting and whatnot throughout my life so I'm not wholly inexperienced. I'm only about a week in but this sure as hell feels like it's working.
There's a recent book about it Lost Secrets to a Great Body by David Bolton that I downloaded off IRC that tries to build a coherent program out of various old-time sources on this method.
Has anyone else got any experience with it? So far feels pretty good.
I was watching a vid last night talking about isometrics. It claimed that using isometrics, like pushing as hard as you can against a wall, can train you to use more of your strength in a movement. But it's only around that part of a movement so you would want to do it in multiple poses. eg. Push against a wall with your arms really bent like at the bottom of a push-up. Push against a wall almost locked out like the top. Push against it somewhere in the middle of those two. Possibly add more than three parts if you really want. Pushing for about six seconds a go and maybe three sets per pose.
Yeah the spring grip dumbells are because it helps to squeeze the weight and the spring grip is supposed to help you know how much to squeeze.
The dumbell itself doesn't matter, the idea is that doing a curl with a 5lb dumbell, you feel a bit of pressure in your bicep, which helps you target the contraction better and get more out of it. Same with squeezing the weight.
In theory you could literally do it with no weight at all and get the same result as long as you could target and contract your muscles correctly during the movement.
The spring dumbells are cool though.
I always had a feeling that that kind of push/pull isometric would work too.
A thing about Sandow is he was a salesman so I'd need to know how much of what HE did was like this. I read one of his essays in which he talked about the sad state of normal people and imagining a future where everyone was fit. He could have just been shilling for his dumbbells and/or hoping the unintimidating weight would get DYELs on the right path.
Zachary Collins
I think he actually was talking about the light weight system before he sold the dumbells. That was later.
The thing is that the light weights don't matter. The system very explicitly isn't about weight.
While I respect their contributions to fitness/bodybuilding so much of the stuff the bronze era bodybuilders did was honestly retarded in hindsight. What he was doing was practicing poses, and it's better to do it with zero weight.
Oliver Campbell
Check out Maxalding. It's similar to what you're talking about where you concentrate on the contractions. It makes sense as the quality of your contraction depends on the nerve connections to your muscles. Lifting is a means of resistance which is a means of contraction which itself is a means of creating neuromuscular facilitation. I've been doing Maxalding for about a week and I've already noticed increased stability in my legs and posterior chain. The whole point is to allow your nervous system to strengthen by doing it daily and not going to failure/exhaustion.
You have to remember that selling his programs and equipment was his entire livelihood
Aaron Perry
>A literal boylesque performer
Joseph Brooks
I've tried doing maxalding and isometric exercises, but in my opinion they require too much nervous energy. Contracting your muscles without any external resistance, especially when it has to be a single muscle(and not the other ones connected to it) takes a lot of concentration. I've never felt my nervous system being drained and fatigues as when I was doing isometrics. Does it work? Yeah, probably, but why would I do something that's so unpleasant when I can do regular bodyweight exercises and get the same result?
Jackson Adams
3 x 3 x 6 seconds pushing against a wall to get significantly stronger at pushing exercises isn't a bad thing at all.
Andrew Hughes
FYI Sandow was addicted to heroic levels of cocaine.
Caleb Harris
I'll check it out yeah. Looks cool.
Precisely.
Everyone wants to be a hero.
Andrew Cruz
If you're not doing cocaine in the Victorian Era you are a cuck.
Michael Powell
>but mom, all the cool Victorian kids are doing it!
To be fair I'm not sure coke is necessarily real good for athletic performance.
Aaron Sullivan
how you train doesn't matter as long as you do something. the only thing that actually matters is hormone levels aka how many steroids you are willing to take.
Leo Jones
I don't think that's the case.
Easton Fisher
Same. I posted in a thread a few weeks ago that I was trying it out. Here are my findings so far. Keep in mind that i have been using it as a minor supplement in a ppl routine, where i focus on heavier lifts for whatever aspect, and i hit the recovering body parts every day with a light weight. For methodology, I use inefficient isolation moves, with maximum focus, slowly and with great contraction, for 32-96 reps depending on muscle group.
There has been a slight, but noticable increase in musclebelly size and definition, too soon for progress pics though it has been commented on in person. There has been a definite increase in lifts and strength (I attribute this to increased blood flow and more nutrients going to the affected body parts daily, which aids greatly in recovery, as well as increased mind-muscle connection) My caloric needs have increased greatly, to the point where my diet and fasting had to be retooled around this. Ability to isolate and consciously contract muscle groups increased.
So far, it seems to be a fine, even useful training method, but best utilized in a more complete fitness regime. With proper nutrition and recovery, it may help with recovery and making hypertrophic and strength gains, too soon to theorize on why for sure. It can also be a good introductory supplement for newbies to gain muscular and bodily control.
Lincoln Lopez
Interesting. I'm using it as my sole training thing at the moment. Will definitely be seeing how it goes. Would love to keep hearing about it though from your side.
Jackson Hill
Let's see a source.
Juan Wilson
Yeah you can make gains even from not using weights at all. There's Maxick as someone pointed out, and a couple of modern studies backing this up.
bretcontreras.com/do-we-even-need-to-lift/ The purpose of the study was to remove the influence of an external load and determine if muscle growth can be elicited by maximally contracting through a full range of motion. In addition, the acute physiologic and perceptual responses to each stimulus were also investigated. Thirteen participants completed 18 sessions of unilateral elbow flexion exercise. Each arm was designated to either NO LOAD or HIGH LOAD condition (70% one repetition maximum). For the NO LOAD condition, participants repeatedly contracted as hard as they could through a full range of motion without the use of an external load. >These results extend previous studies that have observed muscle growth across a range of external loads and muscle actions and suggest that muscle growth can occur independent of an external load provided there are enough muscle fibers undergoing mechanotransduction.
I think there's certainly benefits to just using weights, but maybe you can implement shit like that strategically. I plan to start practicing contraction throughout the day when I'm not lifting to see if I make some extra gains.
>pushing as hard as you can against a wall this is bullshit
Thomas Morgan
dude looks dyel as fuck
Luis Thompson
>There has been a definite increase in lifts and strength (I attribute this to increased blood flow and more nutrients going to the affected body parts daily, which aids greatly in recovery, as well as increased mind-muscle connection) That's the #1 reason I want to start practicing contraction exercises: see if it helps with recovery or allows me to squeeze in some gains while recovering.
#2 reason is that I'm also wondering if it can function as replacement for machines in certain isolation exercises. If doing the movement while contracting hard gives me at least 30% of the results a machine would, that's already good enough to cancel my gym subscription and just lift at home to save time.
Jose Russell
I think you and most people seriously underestimate how difficult it is to just flex your muscle as hard as possible for an extended period of time through a rom. Try it and you'll probably keep realizing that you're not squeezing as hard as you were supposed to. It is much easier to achieve the contraction by actually acting against resistance.
I read Atlas' program and its really just high rep basic calisthenics and aerobics. Doesnt even mention mind muscle connection or creating tension in the muscle by flexing through movements.
Closest thing to what everybody seems to expect out of dynamic tension would be "dynamic resistance" as found in DDP Yoga. And it seems to work for DDP he looks good for his age.
James Wright
I think I'm ok on the contracting aspect. I'm actually more worried about pulling the muscle in some cases. Traps/bicep specifically. The hard part has been trying to get 0 contraction in surrounding/opposing muscles. I always get some, but I'm only a week in. Working on isolating the muscle is definitely a big part of the art of this.
Carson Harris
I am monitoring this thread. For once something interesting to explore and discuss further. Keep me posted.
Maximal contraction and squeezing when you reach full ROM definitely helps me with recovery and DOMS
Jaxon Gonzalez
The Great Sandow would do hundreds of reps as quoted by Arnold in his Encyclopedia of Modern Bodybulding.
Aiden Phillips
Yeah it's interesting. Doing it daily (with only occasional breaks) you really feel it in subsequent days especially.
Alexander Collins
This.
Noah Jenkins
Sounds a lot like feeder workouts. Do you get a good pump dping this and how long does a set take?
Charles Rivera
OP here not that guy: my workout is taking me around 20 minutes give or take. Slightly less today because after a bunch of days of it my muscles were sore and couldn't go for as long.
Usually do it in the evening, then shower then make my dinner. Feels great.
Jayden Lopez
couldn't you do it without a barbell? Just contract your muscles as hard as possible and perform the movement
Jordan White
Yeah you could. The dumbells help you 'feel' the muscle that you should be focused on contracting. It's just an aid, you can do it without the dumbell. But even though I genuinely believe I'm quite good at voluntary muscle contraction (and personally think I can do it without, because I can sit here and literally contract my various muscles) I'm choosing not to be an arrogant prick for once in my life and just listening to the smart people who came up with this system.
Dylan Sullivan
Your thread reminded me of this picture. Training without heavy weights and focusing on contraction can be effective but you'll probably need to get under a barbell if you want to grow big.
Why is Spec from Baki teaching me how to do isometrics lol
Ethan Baker
how do you contract only one muscles without the opposite muscle? Wouldn't contracting your biceps just pull your forearm towards your shoulder if you don't provide some kind of resistance?
Jonathan Edwards
2 people got that reference, i am one of them.
>Shit i wish I had Kaines guide book
Jacob Robinson
You have no idea how old he was, do you?
Jace Diaz
The basic idea of this is no different than quality over quantity, right? In terms of doing slow but effective reps vs many quick and stamina-based reps.
William Reed
That's why you're supposed to do full range of motion. You contract that the furthest range of motion so that's exactly what it does.
Gabriel Robinson
As someone else said, you can't flex a muscle without also contracting the antagonist. Contracting you tris without bis would just be straightening your arm with no resistance. And if you contracted your tris at full extension as hard as you could without any opposite force, you'd snap up your elbow.
But this is a good thing for this kind of workout. You can train opposing muscle groups at the same time.
Eli Jenkins
Thanks for that pic, I just stumbled across this thread browsing Jow Forums and that first exercise there is amazing. I have back problems and it feels really good, hopefully it can help my back.
Henry Hall
Glad to hear that, hope it helps you.
Nathan Harris
from what I could tell from reading this thread going through the range of motion with only muscle tension and no weight increases muscle mass but is less effective in increasing strenght while according to this hoding a position and overcoming isometrics will increase strengh in that specific position but no muscle size
Brayden Roberts
but that's only useful is both muscles have the same strength It wouldn't work for couples where one muscle is much stronger. Like femoral biceps and quads, or delts and lats/cest
Ethan Evans
Yeah it doesn't train your CNS as well for strength as high weight low reps does. However since it increases your mind-muscle connection it should probably improve your efficiency at specialized CNS training later. Ie do this to build the muscles up to a good size then move over to train specifically in whatever you want to use the muscles for at greater efficiency.
That's my thought on it anyway.
Henry Phillips
Definitely true in regards to quads and hams. I guess the only thing helping in that case would be that you'd have to actually do a bodyweight squat while flexing your whole legs and flutes which can add some tension to the quads by nature of the movement.
But you're probably right. Certain exercises would stall while their antagonist catches up. It is not a perfect method.
Benjamin Reyes
What about contracting between sets? I do a set of bench just push my palms together as hard as I can for a few seconds. It blows up my pecs, but idk if it has any effect on hypertrophy.
Blake Evans
Bullshit. He was lying to sell his program to dyels by making them think it was easier than It was
He could one arm OHP over 2pl8s
Camden Wilson
>practicing contraction throughout the day when I'm not lifting to see if I make some extra gains. I'm a noob to lifting and started doing this too. So far I have observed: I progress well on my noob program, but that may not be due to the contractions but just that I eat well. Secondly, I feel less tense and more relaxed! The pain and stiffness I used to feel in my back, neck, etc. due to office work is gone. I think that at the very least constant contractions throughout the day help with that.
Angel Roberts
>Awarded the title of "The World's Most Perfectly Developed Man."
I find this hilarious for some reason
Ian Scott
He certainly could. The argument is that he built the muscles up with this program and then trained to use them for his strongman show. This program is all about building muscles, but is (as all agree) less ideal for specialized training of them to do something like big lifts. It doesn't train your nervous system for handling big weights. Ie: firing in sequence for a compound lift, for example. However it does give you a good ability to fire specific muscles so might improve your speed/efficiency at learning to make use of the muscles you've developed.
Angel Anderson
>I'm choosing not to be an arrogant prick for once in my life and just listening to the smart people yes my life became much easier when i stopped trying to reinvent the wheel constantly
Ryan Jones
Good argument, bro. These studies you posted have convinced me.
Thanks!
Andrew Lopez
Yeah. My Dad used to always give me a lecture about the dumb caveman sits in the dark, the smart caveman invents fire, but the really smart caveman goes to the guy who's already invented fire and learns it from him.
Part of the reason I'm drawn to this 'new' style of muscle training though is that.... progressive weight lifting is "solved". It's not something you can add much to at this point. My natural instinct with my hobbies is that they should be 'creative'. I like coming up with things and thinking about things and finding new approaches to shit. Lifting/fitness is a great hobby but it's not really that kind of hobby.
In some way, testing out old techniques and approaches that differ wildly allows me to in some way be....doing something different and applying my brain to it.
Charles Taylor
I have scanned copies of many old books like these. If you have any specific titles or authors you are interested in I will upload.
Please don't simply ask me to dump everything.
Andrew Moore
Anything by either Eugene Sandow or Professor Attilla
Jordan Lopez
I second Sandow, but if you have Charles Atlas it would be awesome.
Seriously though thanks. This is awesome. I wonder if people would be interested in a mega for bronze/silver/golden age stuff. I've been kinda into the Golden Era Bookworm channel on youtube lately which is part of what inspired me to do this.
Lost Secrets to a Great Body (Mentioned earlier) a fucking epub, sorry ufile.io/x9luef4p
Christopher Miller
Thanks man, that's the goodest of good shit. There anything you've read that you'd reccommend? Either authors or individual works that you think are really good?
I was under the impression you were supposed to contract at full extension. It doesn't make sense otherwise, like you said you'd have to contract the opposite muscle too and nothing would be really contracting that hard. If you do it at full extension you can get a pump and even doms. Plus I don't think you could snap your elbow or knee like that.
Jason Lee
with Sandow and Attila you really have the main ones. Off the top of my head - I enjoyed these: Physical Development - WR Pope ufile.io/ed68surz How to get String - William Blaikie ufile.io/vokkexdi
