Are olympic style lifts like snatches and clean & jerk really useful?

completely overrated. especially the snatch. the clean, and more importantly the powerclean, is one of the most important lifts to train for athletes especially athletes like football players.

The snatch and a full clean are both technically demanding lifts that require a certain amount of mastery/flexibility and were never meant to be used in high rep sets, ever. Introducing extreme fatigue and poor control will inevitably lead to injuries.

The powerclean however can be accomplished with relatively little technical mastery, doesn't require an excessive amount of flexibility, and is the only lift that trains both generating and resisting force, it's the perfect lift for some one like a lineman whose whole job is to explode powerfully, and absorb a ton of force right after. For average every day plebs who aren't training for a sport, they can be completely skipped or replaced with safer alternatives.

If you don't have a rack, hell yeah they're useful.
>Bar on the ground, how work legs?
Clean bar, do squats.
>But back squats? I can't OHP that.
You probably can't OHP nearly what you could jerk. You can have garbage form, receive cleans high and just do push press for jerks and still be much better off.

So if i were to incorporate cleans, i should keep them early in my workout before fatigue sets in?

yup, exactly that. you always want your most technically demanding and power demanding movements at the beginning of your workout. this has to do with not only a rested lifter being able to avoid fatigue slopping up his form, but also because at your most rested is where you'll be able to do the most weight. The point of these exercises is train power generation, basically strength under time. The faster you move a heavier weight the more power you make, so the incentive to doing these is keeping the weight/tonnage/intensity relatively high and the rep scheme relatively low. Sets of 10 are seen in weightlifting sure, but weightlifters typically understand these lifts and are also only doing these lifts for their entire workout, I would recommend warm up and 3x5 as a rep scheme for normies that want to incorporate cleans or snatches, none of the crossfit 10x10 shit or whatever

>Are they overrated or nah?

Try it, It's humbling.

You can't just follow linear progression for a year then start injecting shit.

thanks for the advice. Maybe I'll give em a go

Sports nigga

they're a lot of fun to work on, and you really do feel power gains, but they're frustrating to make actual progress on without coaching. Look up Catalyst Athletics, they have a shitton of informative videos on just about every technical aspect of the lifts you would want to know

Properly programmed
>High pulls
>Depth jumps
>Ballistic pushups
>Pendlay rows
>20foot shuttle runs
Aren't super technical and can develop power nicely.

Maybe power cleans and clean and press if you're in football, rugby, or track and field.

I see no reason to barbell snatch unless you're an Olympic lifter. Fuck up a power clean and you break your wrist and maybe a femur, you can recover from that.
Fuck up a snatch and you can ruin your shoulders for life, become paralyzed, or get your skull crushed.

Yeah instead you learn correct technique and then start injecting shit immediately

Seems like one of those lifts that are only useful for athletes building explosive power or oly lifters. If you want to get big and get strong there are other lifts much more useful.

Klokov has some videos on YouTube demonstrating bar path with cleans that are quite nice.

You want to 'pull up your pants', per klokov.

Ah, a fan of the Russian System I see

They are for bangin CrossThots

klokov isn't a very good coach, his lifting pattern is extremely unique to his body type and his english isn't that good for explaining the more technical parts of the lift. juggernaut, catalyst, and california strength all are better resources for new lifters

You might as well ask why the fuk you pick up and put down heavy shit

it's not, at all.

No, its fun because technique is challenging if you don't think that's fun there's no point

they can be fun, and you can build a good physique doing them, but risk to reward, they're pointless. even most athletes don't snatch, at most they "clean", which in reality is a nasty looking powerclean caught on the biceps 99% of the time.

I find that novices get overwhelmed with those videos (not that they are bad).

I find that Klokov has to crystalize the essence of the lift in models and mnemonics because he simply can't rely on his English.

It won't result in a perfect lift but there are too many things going on in an Olympic lift for a novice to ever complete a perfect lift. For example, novices don't benefit from cues like "pull yourself under the weight" because they don't know what they are supposed to feel. There is a risk of learning bad movement patterns but there are way too many things to remember in a 2 second time frame to avoid this.
But maybe you've seen some of their videos that I haven't.

sounds like you're a klokov fanboy that's been weightlifting for exactly 3 months desu

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as an oly weightlifter ive fucked up countless snatches and i never got really hurt. back when i was doing powerlifting ive had a lot more injuries

probably because you can't even snatch bodyweight
fact of the matter is snatch is an extremely high risk exercise for relatively low gain. it's not better for training the triple extension than the clean and jerk, and it's balance aspect is more highly tied to flexibility than to useful stabilizer development, coupled with a high entry ceiling of skill making it hard to load with any appreciable amount of weight.

WHat do you mean USEFUL you fucking cocksucker? Useful for what? Useful for olympic lifting sure
Useful for bodybuilding? no

Sounds like you're a wannabe coach who hasn't ever had to teach true novices.

you're right, I should tell novices to listen to a juiced up russian who can't speak english worth a fuck and who has been lifting since he was 8. That's surely the best way to learn olympic lifts.

It is good for times when you may need to be explosive. The world may not always coddle you. Explosiveness also helps strengthen bones and tendons and ligaments, and trains your body for coordinated movement.

>alright, time to learn how to snatch today! Here's your coach, also, he doesn't speak english, good luck!

Sure, you can get injured badly in powerlifting. But if you're squatting in a power cage with properly set safeties, you probably won't break a vertabrae and severe the spinal cord and become paralyzed--worst case you might need pain surgery. You might break your knee or tear your quad in a power rack squatting, but due to the safeties you won't tear your quad and then ALSO have your knees buckle thus breaking every bone and tearing every ligament as you accordion Looney tunes style under 500lbs+.

Experienced Oly lifters can bail from under a snatch if their leg cramps and they can also accept the risk as part of their love of the sport. But if you don't care about competing in Oly, why risk catastrophic failure that could paralyzed you?

snatches, jerks and cleans are hella more fun than squat/bench/deads

Fighting and fighting sports.

Lol do you make house visits to your athletes to ensure that they're following their workout program offseason?
You teach in person, provide video resources to maintain performance, and correct as necessary during team workouts. Klokov nails the essence of the clean: pull up, not out. No need for Pendlay to explain this for 15 fucking minutes.

Most of you Oly autists are just buttmad that highschool football players are hang cleaning what you front squat after a few weeks of training because you're all failed athletes and genetic inferiors.

I sorta agree with you, but if you can pass the entry ceiling, it's pretty fun lift and what it lacks in heavy weight it makes up for in technical mastery

but are they more effective mass builders?

no, they're not

My own exoerience, Power cleans helped me break a DL plateau.

Also was a fun challenge to learn clean and jerk. You can progress to a pretty head-turning weight without actually becoming a C+J specialist. And there were surely some delt, trap, and grip strength gains.

But snatch is a fat waste of time unless you're a crossfitt dork.

>durr who cares about learning it right muh russian

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the thing is m8, getting better at snatching pretty much just means you get better at snatching. it doesn't really have that much of carryover to sports other than like, gymnastics maybe?

>Imagine wanting glory without danger

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I do oly. Not crossfit. Only oly.

Its fun as absolute fuck. Its so much more than than just grinding the big 4, or running a PPL for hypertrophy. Yeah, the volume is so low that you wont look muscular. But I dont care. I am having a blast doing this, and hope to compete (mostly for fun) after having done it for a little longer. I can only snatch my bodyweight (I'm a twink at 78kg), so I've got a lot of room for improvement.

>just means you get better at snatching
Yep. But, unless you're just a pretty boy, one should have a decent snatch.

LOL anybody that can snatch bodyweight is competitive at the state level and has been to or tried out for the US Open.

There's less risk to the snatch than to the squat or deadlift, and far less than the bench press.

The lifts are easy to learn, look up the Cal Strength vids with Glenn Pendlay (RIP) teaching, it'll take a few sessions to get smooth with the bar and/or light weight from the ground to the full position, and maybe a few if you're remedial to do some mobility work (Sotts press with the bar, pause overhead squats maybe even with clean grip, etc), but a passable power snatch from the high hang is something any spaz can learn to do safely in one day.

They literally teach middle school kids the snatch in four sessions, piece-wise. Teach them all the lifts, with both jerk styles, in three weeks, 12 sessions, then turn them loose to do 5x5 at comfortable weights for a couple of months before every trying a heavy single.

LOL describing injuries that have NEVER happened to a competitive OWLer. The worst you see are pulled muscles and an occasional dislocated elbow on max snatch singles.

Most of the people seriously injured lifting weights are in the bench press, followed by the deadlift (torn biceps). Back injuries in squats coming up third.

If you're snatching bodyweight at 78, you're one of the top 200 lifters in the world right now and should no doubt already be competing. Look it up, only 115 lifters in 2019 in the -81 men's open senior have snatched 100 or more.

>If you're snatching bodyweight at 78, you're one of the top 200 lifters in the world right now and should no doubt already be competing.
Bullshit. My combined isnt even 200. My lifts are average at best.

Agree with you completely on the injuries. Its pretty safe. Never seen someone seriously hurt. Most people at my gym deal with overuse injuries (myself included). Given my thighs a few gnarly bruises though.