Programming

Literally every programmer I know is fat and low test.

This is most people in uni besides the guys getting meme degrees and foreigners who can't speak english

Why is it impossible for a male to be both good-looking and highly educated?
The muscular alpha males are trade school idiots, the uni physics gods are short, balding and fat, oozing estrogen.

I takes a lot of effort to be in shape physically and mentally and you'll have no time for hobbies
Few people are willing to do it

It's because to be truly great at something that requires thinking at a high level, you are usually somewhat obsessed with it and things like going to the gym, etc. seem like wastes of time.

Programmers nowadays aren't really like that. Since software development is mostly about working with other people, a lot of companies won't even look at you if you aren't able to bring good social skills to the table and look presentable.

It's also not really that hard with the type of things the average programmer is doing nowadays, opening it up to typical well adjusted people.

this
there are still some genuine tech wizards out there but they're almost certainly in research

>things like going to the gym, etc. seem like wastes of time

I see this in a lot of people. It's sad.
Taking care of your health is not a choice or a lifestyle decision, it's an obligation.

I hate scientists for this. They're so autistic and mentally-directed they think they're just souls floating in space and not biological creatures who need physical maintenance.

Many scientist types will exercise, but it's very minor, usually fun things like biking or hiking. Going to the gym is a level beyond basic maintenance. They see it as work that doesn't have a satisfying outcome.

Not him but I remember doing programming when studying Physics. It's definitely "easy" but it's also totally soul destroying and the last thing you'll want to do. Too bad that's basically all the job market offers if you don't want to do finance.

Exactly. I start a job on monday with a company that never even made me do a coding interview. They had technical questions during my interviews obviously, but 70% of the stuff i was asked about was what i do outside of programming, how i work with other people, what i want to get out of the job, etc.

> he can't pass CS 101

: ^ D

It's hard to memorize things you don't care about.

it's general ed bullshit a nigger monkey could pass

Programming and other nerd shit is why I quit studying physics.

I wanted it to be like Cosmos the tv show, not boring nerd shit u know

Programming is exhausting and makes you cynical. It's not inherently complicated but it takes a sound mind to keep taking shit apart and putting it back together for what often amounts to no reward for massive amounts of effort.

>because of the mental stigma I have about
found your problem and it is not for the programmer to give a fuck about

I used to be guilty of having this mentality for a long time but I've started to realize I'm not getting any younger and you can't really expect your brain to function at its best if the rest of your body isn't either, I've always been a skinny kid but I can see the writing on the wall 10 years from now if I do nothing

I used to also be caught up in that "I have to defend my field's honor!" mentality but now I can kind of see why CS seems to be held in some degree of contempt by people in other STEM fields, I do find the "nuts and bolts" stuff where you work close to the machine (or closer than your typical web dev work ever gets at least) interesting but at this point I think I'd like to go back and supplement it with a second degree in something that could be considered an end unto itself rather than only a means to another end

>scared of looking like a beta but posts on r9k
The alpha thing to do here is to do whatever the fuck you want and ignore the social stigma.

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>do whatever the fuck you want

Who would want to code voluntarily?

I do, it is fun as fuck.

I feel u bro. Born to shit, forced to wipe.

I do. Unlike the one above I don't enjoy the coding itself, but I do enjoy the outcome of making things in life easier or funny.

Read Programming is being pushed as a guaranteed job that pays well so normalfags are flooding it.

I took the AP computer science test in highschool. Passed it and I didn't even have to take the class.

It feels good to be better than incompetent normies

I think some people just have different mentalities that affect whether or not they can find it enjoyable, the task you're actually working on though is a big part of it and if I'm working on making something that I find interesting then doing the actual programming work to make it happen is more interesting for me

Yet everybody with a degree has to take a bunch of gen ed classes.

people who don't want to write megabytes of manual computations

Currently studying cs and was anticipating studying with a bunch of freaks, maybe even a few of you guys. To my suprise it's 70% """chads""" with one or two roasties sprinkled throughout

>forced to fake extroversion at a job at an open office.
True, and i thought i was going to work alone, i'm stuck in hell

>programmers are forced to fake extroversion at a job at an open office

lol this is me, I think I'm pretty good at doing the act but god is it exhausting. I couldn't be a normie 24/7.

>at a job at an open office.
yay. The slave galley of the IT age, with the whip and drum consisting of social pressure.
And if you are faking your shit too well, you also have meetings and presentations to look forward to.
Fuck.that.shit.

I majored in CS, now a master's and working. I'm . Here's a basic flow of the people I came across

>Bachelor's: Mostly like OP described, few bros mixed in. Not really socially awkward, but definitely either lanky or obese, weak and lazy. Also female to male ratio was 3:100, no joke, and most of them were borderline autistic.
>Master's: More autistic like OP described. Pretty sure this has more to do with doing a master's in STEM than being a programmer. Comparatively, I worked with an art academy a few times and those guys were more like during my bachelor's.
>First job: Big company with open office policy. Mostly STEMlords that couldn't find a job reintegrating as programmers. Most of them are turbonormies or wannabe-Stacies talking about GoT on Mondays, drinking, faking extroversion, you name it. Can't stand it, also open office policy is facked. Mostly lanky extro-bros.

Weak is normal, most guys of our generation are weak, if you can bench 50kg you're at the top 20%, maybe top 10% I'm pretty sure. Lazy is normal for devs, lazy devs will automate their tasks away, which is part of what CS is about, automating and virtualization. Socially awkward, hell no, you can't even get a normal 9-5 job without faking at being an extrovert these days as an introvert, and for a field that could do about 95% of all work remote and during the night, companies are still pushing dev jobs into being your default 9-5 meme.

It's mostly because to be interested in programming one has to be interested in computers which is an interest almost exclusive to non-"Chad" types.

>Lazy
Most programmers have to sink in an insane amount of hours simply dedicated to their craft. It's very tiring mental work so once done, there's little else you want to do because you're fried.
>Weak
Same thing as above. When I began to study and do programming myself I barely felt the urge to ever exercise because I felt so worn out despite having simply sat at my computer for several hours.
>Socially awkward
Programming is a very solitary task even if you're part of a team. Also, because it's something that attracts a certain breed of "nerd" their hobbies are usually internet-centric or solitary in nature.

>Their only skill is attention to the smallest detail and mechanical logic.
That's basically the only skills really needed to be a code monkey and the only skills obtainable by autists. You forget, programming is something that only attracts autists , money grubbers, and those with a weird interest in software.

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Yes, it's absolute hell. Including the consultants and managers that are beyond retarded and will eat up most of the productivity. And in my country, wages for software devs haven't even increased with inflation, and this is a West European country. "STEM shortage" my ass.

>pushing dev jobs into being your default 9-5 meme
it has to be that way. There will be no remote work revolution, because it means you can't destroy an individual with the threat of taking away his livelihood. Being confined to an office means you are being watched, and as long as you are watched, you are pliable.

Would it be feasible to go back and get a master's or PhD after already working in the field with a bachelor's for a few years? Assuming you're in the US, how does the financial situation work out for you doing that? I'm at a spot where I'm doing alright, all my debts are paid off and I have some savings to my name (not a huge amount but still more than the average young adult at my age) but I'm finding myself unsatisfied with the type of projects I currently do at work and I really find things like reverse engineering software, learning how things like virtual machines work or doing the general "nuts and bolts" technical stuff more interesting

Alternatively, would it make more sense to go back and get a second degree in another field where I can leverage the CS and programming knowledge I already have? Which fields would have good "synergy" to do that with?

>would it make more sense to go back and get a second degree in another field where I can leverage the CS and programming knowledge I already have?

Seems to be a solid bet, but I would not look for obtaining any max synergy, but simply picksomething that flows easy for you and you have interest in.
I know some pretty skilled guys who actually came into IT out of what muricans will consider trade jobs like electrician, hydrodynamics or even car mechanic.

Nets them a lot of overlap with customer demands and if nothing else they have far more socialskills, getting the nerd-typology that Op whines about squeezed out of them by those more bluecollar fields.
Higher tier Mathematics or physics can also works for some, but you are bound to go full ivorytower and forget to put your pants on in the morning that way.

As I mentioned, live in Europe so things differ wildly. Just in general:
In Europe, it is much, much easier to get and fund a master's (and eventually a PhD). That said, most jobs are still boring as hell and the only way to get in an interesting project is either through network, experience or patience. Europe is also very uninteresting in general, most companies here like to sell a silver bullet / magical potion app or whatever expecting to be the next Booking.com, Amazon, Netflix, you name it when in reality most of it is just boring webdev and the most basic of CRUD using hashtables and existing frameworks. A master's is near necessary but it won't get you anywhere without experience and some severe luck / patience, with few exceptions.

The US has much more interesting stuff as long as you're willing to move to the tech hubs. More creation, more prototyping, more risk-taking. Europe is very risk averse comparatively. Also, the US has much more focus on drive and excellence over the European way of "slow and steady". Where it's unheard of for a young, Europe-based dev to get in the upper echelons unless you work for an American company, in the US you mostly just need to flaunt your stuff. And you flaunt your stuff by, well, having stuff to flaunt. Education is a part of that, but so is network, your CV, your portfolio, and such.

Before you go and follow a master's, try asking feedback from potential companies. Find out what they do and require etc. You sound like someone who'd do great at a place like Intel, working on embedded software and such. That's a place where having a master's is near required, but you never know. Plus you could potentially do something instead of studying to help your portfolio more. It's hard to give proper advice, but try to see it more as a sum of things you need to prove your excellence, and what aspects would help you get that excellence. And don't do a PhD unless you want to do research.

>The US has much more interesting stuff as long as you're willing to move to the tech hubs.
I think that's part of my problem, one of the up-and-coming US tech hubs is figuratively in my back yard (Pittsburgh) but I'm in one of the surrounding hillbilly towns so I work on boring software for a middling salary right now; as much as I'd like to entertain the idea of going back for grad school or a second degree I really have no clue how to go about it and I'm still kind of paranoid of going into debt again because I graduated into the recession economy and finding my first "real" gig out of college took a while

>Before you go and follow a master's, try asking feedback from potential companies. Find out what they do and require etc. You sound like someone who'd do great at a place like Intel, working on embedded software and such. That's a place where having a master's is near required, but you never know. Plus you could potentially do something instead of studying to help your portfolio more.
I think another part of it is lacking confidence in what I already know, while I like reading about this stuff the fact is all I have to show for it are a couple open-source projects I made that involved reverse engineering old video games; those projects did get a decent amount of attention within the online communities surrounding those games but they were very much "learn as I go" projects so there are some glaring amateur mistakes in them and I really just went into them with the goal of learning enough to make them work so now I know little bits and pieces of x86 and MIPS assembly without actually being "fluent" in either of them

Imposter syndrome is very real. I had severe cases of it until I got my first job and starting yawning at about every task I was given that relied for 90% on domain knowledge and 10% on actual intelligence and CS skills (because most domain knowledge is useless once going to a different company). By the sounds of it you're already very skilled in your domain so dude, by all means, just try. They won't hate you for not trying and there are so many other factors beyond your control that could result in you not getting a job in that direction. Just try, polish your skills, try again. Don't take any refusals personal.

I'm also slightly paranoid of people making the connection between the name I attached to said open-source projects, my name on other online communities I used to be a part of in which I had a far worse reputation (I'll admit I was a major dick to a lot of people online in my teenage years) and my real name, I have never listed my Github on my resume for that reason; I honestly don't even really play video games at all anymore but they seem to be a perfect avenue for cutting my teeth on this sort of technical stuff so that's mostly what I've done

One online buddy is on a first-name basis with some of the engineering employees at a game studio in California that's responsible for some recent commercial remakes of old games and I asked him to pass it along to them a few months ago, nothing really came of it yet so I shouldn't hold my breath

because there's an energetic trade off in creating someone with the genes for athleticism vs a high iq phenotype. has nothing to do with time investment, look at alan turing: ran sub 3 marathons. it's a rare breed: typically high test means ADHD, less ability to sit still (especially as a child), psychopathy, etc. behaviors quite opposed to the what the upper, high IQ class is defined by. muscularity and high test is a r selected strategy as well, correlating with smaller brain size, while obviously K selected populations are higher iq/larger craniums.

Again, just try. If they want to find out about you, they already will have. There are a ton of absolute deviants that work at Google, Facebook, you name it. You'd probably be much less deviant, and mostly afraid to face any potential confrontation. And that's the crux of the matter really: you have to believe in your skills, take hold of what you want and hold your ground. If you don't, you can't expect things to work out the way you want them to. And if you do, well, at worst you can say you tried, at best you get the dream. I know this sounds like meme-advice and super cliche, but this is the way it is. Either get lucky and get noticed, or make yourself get noticed.

>too brainlet for programming
>"uhh i never wanted to do it anyway!! nerds"

I used to think that being a programmer made me just like the galaxy brain meme picture, but dealing with people in other branches of STEM and seeing some of the stuff that researchers are getting up to in recent years was a wake-up call; I still like the field (on paper at least) but I think the proportion of programmers who are actual super-genius level is just as tiny as it is in a lot of other domains and I learned to accept that I'm probably not one of their number

I had the opposite experience actually. Like after doing a CS undergrad I realized programming is stupid easy, which explains all the normies in the field now. I decided I wanted to stay in academia and maybe explore some more interesting research field (or specialize in theoretical computer science which is a lot more interesting than programming), so during my undergrad I worked for this neuroscience lab. Most of the lab was filled with chads/staceys with psych or actual neuroscience degrees and then there was me and this japanese guy who were the only ones who knew how to program. All these non-cs people had to do was learn a tiny bit of c++ to design some simple experiments to get haptic data from participants in their experiments and then use matlab to analyze the data but they literally couldn't even learn that. I worked for a biomedical engineering lab too and even those guys were awful at programming and couldn't figure it out. It's changed how I view STEM generally now in that even seemingly difficult fields are filled with people who can't wrap their heads around pointers.

It's because programming IS easy. Hell, we made entire tools and languages to funnel STEM graduates into programming. Nobody's asking people to make a red-black-tree in C++ or to optimize an interpreter or compiler, the hardest thing most people do is managing fucking dependencies in Java (fuck dependencies, fuck fuck fuck fuck dependencies). It's why programming is taught from the lowest educational degrees to the highest, from STEMlords to absolute normies. CS is mostly the theory behind making efficient algorithms, program flows and creating new models to virtualize science and math.
And even as someone who understands pointers, fuck pointers.

Most programmers I've known have been really beta and somewhat socially inept or just generally awkward to be around. Very few are attractive. The younger ones are kind of hopeless and depressed and hate their jobs.
It's all anecdotal, but I think OP may be on to something here.

To be fair to them they had no need to know what a pointer is and how it works before that point and probably won't need it again after the project is done, I think most programming work isn't actually super difficult by any stretch but requires a particular sort of mentality that not everyone has in order to do it to a high standard

Programming is babby tier easy shit, if you didn't pick it up on the side in your teenage years, you're a retard.
Of course, only knowing programming is weak, but not knowing programming because you're a brainlet isn't any manlier, either.

> CS is mostly the theory behind making efficient algorithms, program flows and creating new models to virtualize science and math.
thanks to machine learning
unrelated to my previous post, but this is becoming less and less the case though. like you'd think the place where you could study complexity theory, formal grammar theory, and so on would be in research but that's getting increasingly overtaken by hamfisted machine learning experiments which are pretty much entirely based on programming and trial and error. it's pretty disillusioning.

Where do you think you are?

If you don't like robots then good, we don't want any more normalfags flooding our field, it's fucking annoying.

unrelated to my previous post, but thanks to machine learning*
except that it is related to their current work and probably their future work too. it's pretty much impossible to escape programming in experimental STEM fields now even though everyone tries to. I agree it's not difficult but then people act like it is despite studying fields which, in my opinion, seem much harder.

>fuck pointers
>not willing to kys over pointer-pointers
Meh

I think it actually lends some credence to the notion of multiple intelligences even though I know a lot of STEM people absolutely hate that idea, it's the same as how any attempt I would make to produce art would look like shit while people who can't do my job can produce a picture that looks like an actual photograph with only a paint brush and a canvas

I'm on medicine and I'm confident that at least 70% of the people here couldn't program. These fields are difficult because of sheer stress, responsibility, and difficult to study due to a ton of memorization, but you don't actually have to be smart or anything to pass university and get work. You can always rely on memorization, and usually doctors and professors encourage memorization over logical thinking, even if unintentionally.
>art
If you've spent tens of thousands of hours trying to learn to draw, you could do it too.

Happens when the field saturates. When it comes to physical limitations, at some point you simply have found the best method. There's only so many ways you can be creative with what you got. Maybe qubits will shake the field a bit.
For what it's worth, path finding, graphics (raytracing), animation and computer vision still has a lot done to it, but yes, it's still mostly trial and error.
Machine learning can eat a dick though, it's tiring to see the thousandth paper that finetuned their variables to a very specific combination just so it works on a specific test and training set, then proceeds to claim "look at how good our research is!"

>schizoid
>trying to get into CS because I thought I would be able to work in isolation
I really hope you guys are wrong, if you need to be social to work in this area I'm completely fucked, and I can't imagine any other area I would be able to work in either. Just faking extroversion is not practical for me at all

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If you're in a corporate environment then I have to break the bad news to you, the only way I could think of to be successful in this field while having total social aversion would be working on extremely technically demanding domains like embedded systems or high-frequency trading

>trying to get into CS because I thought I would be able to work in isolation
It CAN happen, but it is a crap shot trying CS just because of that, sadly.

Too many faggots wanted to leave the dank nerd cave and make the management board bucks, so now we are ALL required to be able to do the schmooze and smile routines

It depends entirely on where you work, but open office policy is very standard these days. If that isn't enough of an indication, nothing is.
The entire world is emphasizing extroversion right now, and it's bleeding into any and every 9-5 job. Your best bet is remote work or working at off-hours. Code reviews, Agile/Scrum/incremental development processes, you name it. You're gonna be in contact unless you start on your own or hit a special case where you're left to your own devices.

Well that sucks. I guess there isn't a job that doesn't require you to be a complete social butterfly these days, though. But this is probably better than working a mcjob.

Hopefully I will be able to find something to do away from office/corporate environments.