Programming doesn't seem fun at all. I learned python 2 and R...

Start a project for something you actually want to use and will use on the daily. There's a surprising amount of motivation to be found in the tinkering mentality, and the frustration of getting it exactly to your liking

Go is braindead toddler programming and the path to make something is usually pretty straightforward once you know what you want to make.

Also the documentation doesn't suck.

Learn C.

It's fun making things. Planning out the architecture and making something clean is fun too.

make a game.

listen you peace of shit, when I was 8 my parents gave me a second hand 286 for Christmas. I didn't know English and I didn't know jack shit about computers but I liked it anyway. I kept pushing the keys and seeing responses on the screen until I figured out English and Basic on my own.
First thing I did was writing a pyramid simulator to figure out how long it would take for workers to place a god damn 2 million stones in a pyramid shape, why? Because it's the right thing to do, that's why. Today there's a total lack of vision and direction from our leaders, our society should do what exactly? Absolutely nothing if you ask them, just churn along mindlessly without purpose, well I got a problem with that and propose that we should build pyramids.

That stuffs dumb. Just burn it all down . I don't give a shit user. I'm OP.

>Go is braindead toddler programming
Since when is clean syntax for braindead toddlers?
If Pike had thrown in a bunch of short, non-descript keywords like mut bor & : ->

write your "burn it all down" or "do nothing" simulator then you dumbass, you can here to look for advices and I gave you a solid one, a real purpose and you wouldn't have it, so figure it out on your own.

he should learn how computers actually work and how logic and algorithms are implemented instead of learning more languages. if you have a strong grasp of the fundamentals, you can use any language. then you can decide which language is best for whatever you're doing.

as a starting language, i would argue for using C++ since it's scalable to the complexity needed. it can be very easy to use for writing simple programs and yet can be a convoluted nightmare if you want to do something more complex. knowing C++ allows you to be able to use most other languages from a higher perspective, since languages like Go are vastly more simplistic and intuitive to use, but you need to the intuition to use them at a higher complexity which you earn through c++. although at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter. picking Go or Python is more than fine.

>as a starting language, i would argue for using C++
Jesus no. I've been teaching the last 4 years while I work on my PhD and one of the big things the department has been doing is trying to figure out how to improve the teaching cycle.
In those four years my experience has been:
>Java
Students get lost in the weeds, there's too much shit going on from the base level for new students not to get completely confused with. Why is this a class? What's a package? Why can't I chain these methods like this?
Not to mention once they start fucking around with implicit conversions or generics and spend 12 hours debugging a simple runtime error. Too much and too high level.
>C
Arrays arrays fucking arrays. For god-knows-what-reason new programmers always seem to fuck up on arrays, and C is particularly shitty about this with how frequently it needs +1 or -1 against size counters, especially with strings. Not to mention when you hit pointers.
>C++
Like C but fucking worse. Just brackets and colons and fucking SHIT everywhere, take all the getting lost in Java and combine it with the errors of C.

Java is probably the least egregious because the IDEs for it hold your hand so hard but it's still not ideal. I've proposed a 5 week intro course using LINQpad and C# because you can write full programs without all the lost-in-the-weeds class overhead.

you picked the worst languages so that doesn't help

damn you're a horrible teacher

How long have you been teaching again? Just because you were one of the neckbeards who came into class with experience doesn't make everybody elses struggle any less.

OP here I already know that stufff. I'm not asking for a first language
They do the job

Somebody who knows how to manually take care of garbage collection and works with c++ instead of pajeet languages or Microsoft bitch not some tard who thinks python is a great starting language despite its useless syntax when switching to other languages

hmm, me neither, coding for the sake of coding?
I enjoy it when I have a vision, and it comes to life
then it's fun
like dreaming of a world, or a videogame
and then being able to make it happen
a little bit engineering here, a little bit engineering there,
but what drives is the vision
if you got stuck in coding for the sake of coding, i don't know, it looses it's fun

crafting beautiful code can also be enjoyable, when you craft it for a bigger purpose, you do it so well, that other programmers can take that, and build further on top of it, giving to the community and making the world better
beautiful and versitile code can be very enjoyable, you think of what others can build with what you have built
or you yourself contribute to something else, and make it better for people who would else have to code it themselves

I think this is why free software or open source is so intriguing, you create something and share it and people build things together

when I loose vision on the dream or project I have, it becomes a chore
but when your dream is bright, and you already have some programming knowledge, it kind of already builds itself in your head

Just because *I* know what I'm doing doesn't mean *they* do. You fucking retard. It's TEACHING.
Python isn't a great starting language either, it's probably one of the fucking worst. Get off your high horse faggot.

I mean, if you don't like it then you don't like it. I learned some basic chemistry, didn't really like it, so I'm not about to force myself to fuck around in a lab.

then get a hobby if you already a job. why program all day long youll burn

I just went from my own experience, i'm glad i started with C++. i get how C#, which i like, is probably much better, even visual basic would be even better if you just want to have 1st years chug out programs. but it skips over so much shit you need to know. i guess that's why i'm not a teacher.

> clean syntax
> curly brackets
> parentheses in function application
It's not bad though, at least when comparing to typical C-like syntax.

I mean if you're smart then yeah, fuck it, start with C++ or ASM or Perl if it makes sense to you. But in a broad, "whats a good starting language" sense, the answer is rarely C++. Every time I get somebody in my office trying to work through something in C++ (usually engineering students who have to learn it) they're always tripping over nonsense because they got too focused on some other aspect of the language, or trying to be clever. It's best to stick to languages that don't let you fuck about too much for getting the basics down.

A lack of sigils does not make for cleaner syntax. Just look at 98% of what people write in Python, it's borderline write-only

People said you can program your own games.
And I started learning a bit of QBasic.
Then people said professional game developers all use C++, then I started to learn C++ with a "C++ for videogames" kind of book.
Then I found "click and play" and just made a lot of little games for "shits and giggles"
This is how I started in late 90s and early 00s. (I was born around the mid 80s, Im over 30 now)
the cool thing is, when you know your way around C++, you also are able to understand all the other languages

> For god-knows-what-reason new programmers always seem to fuck up on arrays, and C is particularly shitty about this with how frequently it needs +1 or -1 against size counters
I think they actually have to learn them for once. I don't think the problem is that they must get the indexes right, I'd rather think the problem is how hard it is to notice (for beginners) where the problem is when the program crashes with some code they don't understand or even worse continues running but spews gibberish. I don't know why people don't get pointers though. I had some friends that I tried to explain pointers to. It's like some people can't grasp the concept of memory. Fuck, I want to try teaching just to explore this matter.

You can't say that expecting us to not want a link.

Off-by-one errors waste so much goddamn class time I hate it. Part of me wants to just say "fuck it we're using lua" and see what happens.
People get fucked up on pointers because now it's not just code in front of their face, now it's "memory" and "addresses" and spooky low level computer talk! So either they try to envision too much shit at once like how the computer does any of that shit instead of just accepting "Ah okay, I'll learn exactly how it does it in a later class". They also tend to do really weird shit and start conflating it with regular variables because now they try to start thinking about how it works in memory and think eeeverything has to be handled with pointers now.
Otherwise competent people get confused on really dumb shit.

OP here
you all keep shitting on Python
Should I pick up Perl6 then? It's what a lot of other people uise

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Indeed, you can write write-only code in pretty much anything. However, I believe that keeping unnecessary characters to minimum is necessary for cleaner syntax.

R is literally useless. Python is literally useless. You are literally useless.

You’re just a normie or low test cuck

Which is a goal of Go. It actually uses semicolon line delimination but you don't need to write them yourself, the compiler adds it in for you. Brackets are necessary to not have a whitespace-based syntax which is almost universally agreed upon to be a goddamn awful idea.
Brackets and parenthesis help keep codebases clean and readable because things are separated out clearly, instead of just being long strings of indented text.

I can understand not like some of the design decisions like := or postfix notation or the make() command, but I think it's kind of a big stretch to call something like func DoAThing(num1, num2 int, word1, word2 string) string { unclean syntax.

You're on drugs if you think those are useless languages

In my opinion, no. I enjoy Python and R specifically, but I believe that you're going about it in the wrong way. I specifically use those languages to analyze scientific data or to automate repetitive tasks. When I first learned those languages before knowing how I could use either to benefit myself and my work I felt the same way as you. I don't know what your goal is, but you need some assignments or tasks to finish. And just what someone said before programming is a creative process and you need to have some creativity. Nothing is going to pop right at you.

OP here that isn't me. I mainly use Python and R for my job . At home Ive fuck around with APL and Coq but nothing serious . Sometimes I feel a pang that I'm not making neat stuff all day

I am on drugs whether I think that or not, so yeah, I do think those are useless languages. What can they do that C can't? They are both pretty much C with a ton of bloat, and they're limitedly more useful than C in a narrow list of applications.

Holy christ man

R is 50% PURE C, Python is literally a shitty reskin of C, both of their compilers are written in, you guessed it, C. Why use a bike with 59 brakes if the one with 2 brakes is objectively better?

do data stuff w that
dig into public county databases
get a busines card and promote your skill at data mining

coding is like really fun, doing neat tricky things, i like different langs, but my favorite for crafting is html5/canvas/JS-interactive-animations

what if I want to do complicated simulations and modeling of chemical reactions

those are good data langs

as much as i shit on C#
i agree, it's good
i'll get familiar w it soon enough

You don't want stupids programming shit in C and most people who are programming shit are stupids.

don't listen too much their python pooping
python is a good lang
i use it sometimes
just keep it fresh, and learn other stuff

If everyone was forced to use PURE C, there'd be no more stupids trying to get into our industry.

those are the backbone of data science
and other applications
just take the words back pls

> whitespace-based syntax which is almost universally agreed upon to be a goddamn awful idea
> [citation needed]
When I look at a loop or a function I immediately see where is the body by indentation. Brackets are just noise in there. I don't see any reason for brackets when a good code is indented properly anyway and that's all that is needed to see the scopes.

I actually like := and wouldn't call func DoAThing(num1, num2 int, word1, word2 string) string { unclean, but I wouldn't say we can't get better. As the more obvious thing, I don't like one type for a few arguments. The commas make it look like num1 and num2 int should be entirely separate things, but they are not. Actually I might've found it more appealing if it was func DoAThing(num1, num2 int; word1, word2 string) string {

Why are some shitty C spinoffs the backbone of data science? That's my issue, I was forced to use R in college for data science, but it became pretty apparent that data science was nothing more than statistics and using a shitty, boring joke of a language.

Well the brackets are always followed by an indent. Always. You can't have single line bracket expressions in Go because, again, the compiler automagically inserts all the line-terminating semicolons for you.
for _, item := range bunchofthings {
//Do a thing
}
vs
for _, item := range bunchofthings
//Do a thing
Doesn't really seem any cleaner, and it makes it significantly less clear where that for loop ends (or function or whatever).

I do agree on the arguments though. Go uses postfix notation so it makes sense to have num1, num2 int in the same vein it makes sense in prefix languages to allow int num1, num2;, but a semi-colon (or some other distinct character) would be a lot cleaner.
You don't really get confused with that when you include syntax highlighting but I won't say you're entirely wrong on that.

>Perl6
No. Perl6 has a lot of interesting strengths and choices, but it's still Perl, but without any of the goodness that made Perl5 worth using.
If you want a fun, play-around language, Ruby is a blast. I won't say it's a good language, but it is extremely fun to write in.

Because they're easier to use from a data-science perspective without having a background in CS, and they compile down to C, which is buttfuck fast.

I wholly recommend LINQpad, it's great for playing around with expressions without having to compile and run an entire project.

you really have no idea what you're talking about

*all the other C-like languages

>I wholly recommend LINQpad
thx, will check

what's wrong with perl?
And what possible strengths does perl6 possess over 5

I have the same issue. So instead of coding a lot on my own, I read a lot of bits and pieces from various open source projects and watch talks about those projects and don't really write code that much myself. I also teach noobs the basics when I get a chance, but I'm really looking for the already running project that I'm going to contribute to rather than looking to make my own thing. Do the same. There is a lot of code out there that could use some more eyeballs on it.

Lots of dumb assholes have reinvented the wheel for the umpteenth time with their speed-addled version of whatever thing that didn't need to be done again instead of taking a few days off of their meds and doing their research first. Don't be those dumb assholes. Read more code, learn how to diff and patch (or git or whatever) established codebases and then write less code that does more instead of being yet another code monkey asshole trying to make your own version of something that doesn't need repeated.

My favorite projects to look at (that I've never contributed a line to)?

systemd, readline, and the Linux kernel itself.

I've also enjoyed reading through the Perl 5 interpreter.

Read more, write less, but be more impactful with what you do write.

Perl 6 has support for unicode arithmetic operators

And? It's still gay

Nothing's wrong with Perl. Both 5 and 6 are pretty solid as languages.
Here's the issue with Perl6, and to understand this you need to understand how Perl5 works:
Before Perl6, there are three data types. String, number, reference. That's it.
There are three (arguably just two, really) data structures.
Scalars, Arrays (lists), Hashes (specially read lists).
Depending on your semantics, you would call these different things, but it's not really the point.

Perl5 is operator contextual. So unlike a strongly or weakly typed language, if you were to do
"4H" + "8H"
You would probably assume it to come out as a string. Equally with "4H" + 8 or any other string-plus-primitive.
In perl, this returns 12. Why? Because + is for numbers, silly. It'll spit a warning at you, but scalars are just scalars, so make do. 4 + 8 is 12 and throw away the H's.
Conversely, if you did
"4H" . "8H", you would get "4H8H" because . is the string concat operator.
Then you get lists of lists, arrays of arrays, hashes of arrays, scalar dereferncing, calling elements in an array with the $ operator instead of @arr[index] because @ implies arr[index] is also an array, etc etc.
This may seem like the workings of a madman but it all comes together beautifully.

Perl5's strength comes from it's ease of writing. It all sort of just flows along, much like how Javascript wants to, but without any of the type systems getting in the way. The only time you get type errors is when you use the wrong sigil, which means you're referring to the wrong kind of data structure, which should be easy to spot.

great comeback faggot

Maybe it just isn't for you.

someone who understands c++ understands python
but someone who understands python doesn't automatically understand c++

It's not supposed to be fun. It's supposed to be a way to make a living.

So all those people who do have fun and employers who expect you to have fun are lying,?

I want to be a hacker in the old sense if the word

NOW THEN

Perl6 doesn't get rid of this arcane voodoo operator magic, but it does add stricter typing options. This isn't inherently bad by itself, but it rapidly leaves the Perl-mindset and brings us back into the drothers of C-like styles.
Where Perl6 *really* fucks up is sigil invariance. $arr[index] is a scalar ($), and we're calling on the index-th element of arr. Pretty clear, right? Great! In Perl6 this can be $arr[index], or @arr[index], or @element = @arr[index], or fucking whatever you want. Not good. Unclear. Muddy. We've somehow made types less strict and more strict all at once. That is some javascript bullshit right there.
This also makes it incompatible with all existing Perl5 code.
It also, perplexingly, introduces the Twigil Sigil, *. * indicates something is "oddly scoped", in that it does not belong to this scope but somewhere else, and where that is we're not quite sure. So you can have $foo = 1 and $*foo = 2 and have two distinct scalars stored.
It also does a lot of things like replacing $#array to get number of elements in an array (It's a scalar, and #array is pretty clear as to being "number of things in array") with @array.end. And a whole bunch of other, largely unnecessary, Perl-mindset-breaking changes like that. It's basically a less well-thought-out Ruby syntax now.

That being said, Perl6 does have some dope shit. It does OOP better, which isn't hard since Perl5's OOP is just a clever list hack, it has junctions, lazy evaluations, and chained comparisons.
Ex: if $color eq "white" | "black" | "yellow" #then do a thing
or if 8 < $count < 10 #then do a thing
And lazy evaluations make large computations handy but fast since they're only evaluated when directly called upon.

TL;DR Perl6 strays too far away from how Perl should work, but it does add a lot of nice things. As a standalone language I could consider giving it a pass, but it has too much of a legacy to deal with.

I am trying to learn c# at the moment after only really knowing Python beforehand.
I use mainly this site (revisecomputerscience.com/extras/algorithm-day-ocr/) substitute where it says pseudocode for the language you are trying to learn and you'll start to notice a sense of achievement when you finish a task.

I don't really understand the people who suggest starting on a big project. I always end up borderline suicidal by the end.

>So all those people who do have fun
they do have fun
>employers who expect you to have fun are lying,?
probably, most work is boring
>I want to be a hacker in the old sense if the word
I don't think you really know what that means. But the closest you can do is try to get into cyber security and see if you like it.Scripting languages like Python and Perl are TOOLS in this field, just learning to do trivial stuff in them will not be fun. First learn a lot of low-level programming and a lot of networking. After that you'll be able to use scripting languages to assist you to do stuff.

Projects are suggested for people who either have done algorithms and are bored, or find the lack of actual result boring. "Why would I write a quicksort? What's the gunna do for me?"

I 100% know what that means.
I wanna be hacker in the old sense

Define low level

Also how do I learn networking real well

Python's a good starting language because it is easy to read. Basically Pseudocode

It's supposed to solve problems. Not everyone programs for a living. Some are hobbyists

>Learning two shit languages
Your fault mate.

>Doesn't want to improve by getting a project, or working at it.
>I rarely need anything doesn't exist.
>Doesn't want to code for the sake of it.
>Looks at programming as a boring thing to do.
If you are not going to work for the shekkels neither you like to do so on your free time, fucking quit already. You have wasted your time. Get another hobby.

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Confusing post

by doing a bunch of networking shit

with R you should do some visualization of data and statistics stuff, idk you cant really do much with R in practice

link faggot?

don't listen to this open source cuck

Show me some Perl6 Govnocode

Whitespace based scoping is shitty because it introduces ambiguity, it is also impossible for the machine to deduce what you mean to do if you fuck up your indentation. With braces you can have all your shit unindented if you really want and pretty much any editor can correct that formatting.

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>I don't get the people on the other side of the coin who want to just code for the sake of it
The money's in the back of their heads. Problem solving's in the front. It can be like a game if you want.

Helps if you're not using python.

Just because you don't like driving a bus doesn't mean you won't like driving a miata

Learn Haskell, my dude.

>im trying to learn APL
Look!

What ambiguity? There is exactly one way to interpret the program. Note how in Go brackets are always followed by an indent so brackets and indents are in 1:1 correspondence.
> it's impossible for the machine to deduce what you mean if you write wrong code
Gee, who would've thought?

>unironically suggesting c#
wow you might as well tell him that the .NET framework isn't a huge piece of shit used by people who are terrible programmers. the fact that there are people here who unironically develop for windows just illustrates how godawful the industry is.

Idris is better.

>expects to program for fun on data languages
Try to do some other stuff in Python, or learn a new language like C / Haskell.

Because I can split the devil's head open with another ace up my sleeve at any moment I choose. When the fresh new packages rollout and gig the corporate hype takers, I'm the guy that don't give a fuck. I remember assembly instructions & memory calls like your neighbor remembers the back of his dog's hairy ass. And if I smile, I may also be smiling at I don't give a fuck who is top, or fucking bottom in shit bot usa or abroad. I don't need a fucking gun kid.

preach that brother

Another meme eats the memes, so be it.

Programming is like construction work.
Sure, some people say "why build a garden shed from scratch when you can just buy one?"
but some people enjoy doing it.