Why is it that people have such a difficult time with Linux? In my university, where a Unix course is required for our CS degree, more than half of the class has dropped at this point. Some of them were pretty good programmers.
What makes Linux so impenetrable for people?
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Why dont you go ask them?
It's really weird. I've experienced this too
Maybe the abstraction that requires mathematics doesn't correspond with the abstraction of handling a new OS?
I have, I usually get generic non-answers and excuses unfortunately. Nothing really about the operating system itself other than, "doing stuff at the terminal is gay lmao"
That's pretty hilarious. I saw a third of my C and Unix class drop the course because it was "too hard." They seemed to be fine with C but when we got to very basic CLI tools
I think a good portion of it comes from babby duck syndrome. Retards can't into new operating systems. Reminder that these are people who don't even know what an operating system is and think that Windows is "a PC" vs. a mac
>"pretty good" programmers
they weren't that good then
Diploma mill syndrome. 5/6 of the people attending are actually too shit to even do Linux basics, the other 1/6 happens to be better but mostly not because of the diploma mill. And no, they won't drop most of the other 5/6.
honestly, web development is worse than anything to do with linux. debugging sucks and you have php errors which just throw themselves on the page you're working on (though not all of them at once, of course. that would make too much sense. they come one at a time, so that after you solve one, another one presents itself). though at least php is verbose. javascript may as well just tell you, "you made a mistake" for all the help the console gives you. and of course for css, you're completely on your own when something doesn't work. it simply does nothing when there is an error.
all of webdev sucks. debugging sucks. the languages suck and all use slightly different ways to do things like check array sizes. a lot of time is wasted debugging and looking up language X's version of "check the array size". then there are the bugs that are just completely inexplicable and seemingly random. i refresh the page, the page loads my calendar starting at august 2018. i refresh again it loads may. i refresh again it loads april. then stays on april. but every once in a while goes back to august or may.
and the result is not that satisfying. so what i made a fucking calendar. there are hundreds of calendars out there. you have to be a masochist to do web development. i've just been doing it for three weeks, and already it is one of the most, if not the most, frustrating experiences i've ever had at a computer.
the documentation is moon runes, the debugging sucks, the results are not satisfying, the tutorials never seem to capture the general idea behind what they are showing and are usually highly specific portfolio padding blog posts for the author, there very little if any information out there about how the actual technologies function and the community is largely homosexual.
compared to webdev, linux is not bad. learning commands sucks, but after a few weeks you become a natural. and amazingly, the terminal will tell you what you typed wrong.
the worst part of it is the percentage of web devs who look at this mess and seem to conclude "this is fine". Presumably because they've always been the type of programmers who just throw shit at the wall until something almost pretty much works. web dev is a whole ecosystem built around that shitty philosophy, with a lot of "move fast and break things" bullshit.
It's weird, yeah. One of my pals who is a top-tier maths guy and not a bad programmer at all almost dropped the class himself. I had to hand hold him through the whole thing, and the gpa of the class was fucking awful.
It's funny for me as Linux was my first OS, but later could get used to XP and OSX too.
asking people to change their own OS is usually too much, they can't be bothered.
I would see their struggle.
What do you even do in a unix course? Learn to use bash commands? Just use man you'll bring up the answer sheet.
>amazingly, the terminal will tell you what you typed wrong.
This actually blew me away that it could do this. I am just a user but I love terminal commands because they get shit done. Not for everything but if you need to change a file its good. The amount of stuff that came just in the terminal was amazing. I was totally blown away by how far Linux has come (I have been around computers all my life) but when I tell people and show them they just laugh.
I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're referring to as Linux, is in fact, GNU/Linux, or as I've recently taken to calling it, GNU plus Linux. Linux is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning GNU system made useful by the GNU corelibs, shell utilities and vital system components comprising a full OS as defined by POSIX.
Many computer users run a modified version of the GNU system every day, without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of GNU which is widely used today is often called "Linux", and many of its users are not aware that it is basically the GNU system, developed by the GNU Project.
There really is a Linux, and these people are using it, but it is just a part of the system they use. Linux is the kernel: the program in the system that allocates the machine's resources to the other programs that you run. The kernel is an essential part of an operating system, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete operating system. Linux is normally used in combination with the GNU operating system: the whole system is basically GNU with Linux added, or GNU/Linux. All the so-called "Linux" distributions are really distributions of GNU/Linux.
>What makes Linux so impenetrable for people?
Distro wars and morrows criticizing easy things/ easy distros.
Instead of recommend a newbie distro, like Ubuntu or Fedora, fucking duchebags tell new users to install shady distros that don't even have a indexed help forum, or literal edgy teenager distros, like arch.
Not top mention people who recommend literal forks of ubuntu and shit in his own plate. You dumb fucker, linux mint is just ubuntu with a theme.
Keep in mind that i am not criticizing people who use/develop new "flovors" as a hobby. I just don't think that it's appropriate for new users.
You may not like it, but both Ubuntu and Fedora have a large company behind that is more concern about usability than "freeeeedoms".
I'm terribly sorry for interjecting another moment, but what I just told you is GNU/Linux is, in fact, just Linux, or as I've just now taken to calling it, Just Linux. Linux apparently does happen to be a whole operating system unto itself and comprises a full OS as defined by POSIX.
Most computer users who run the entire Linux operating system every day already realize it. Through a peculiar turn of events, I was misled into calling the system "GNU/Linux", and until now, I was unaware that it is basically the Linux system, developed by the Linux project.
There really isn't a GNU/Linux, and I really wasn't using it; it is an extraneous misrepresentation of the system that's being used. Linux is the operating system: the entire system made useful by its included corelibs, shell utilities, and other vital system components. The kernel is already an integral part of the Linux operating system, never confined useless by itself; it functions coherently within the context of the complete Linux operating system. Linux is never used in combination with GNU accessories: the whole system is basically Linux without any GNU added, or Just Linux. All the so-called "GNU/Linux" distributions are really distributions of Linux.
Rekt
2many commands 2memorize
It's 2018. You don't need to use the terminal if you don't want to.
Pro Windows users also use power shell to improve their experience.
Easier than memorizing how to navigate through windows 10.
It's also far easier to just copy-paste something into the command line than it is to go through gui instructions for something, only to find out the layout has changed, or a button that is supposed to be there is missing for some reason.
It's not that they can't learn, but that they don't want to learn. Society delivers these people pretty strong Microsoft propaganda.
People latch on to negative sentiments quicker than positive ones, it only takes a few loudmouth sceptics in the class to put everyone else off.
>edgy teenager distros
>arch
Arch has some of the best documentation on the planet. You're a fucking retard.
Non-programmer here.
For most people, switching from windows to linux just seems like a major, pointless inconvenience. I still see no reason to do it.
Plus, whenever you want to look something up, it feels as if guides and tutorials either treat you like a complete idiot (basically telling you fluff info) or as a highly advanced user (dumping phrases you don't know) that you get lost trying to figure everything out.
GNU plus Linux and C programming has become my life the last few weeks. I know some faggots in Jow Forums will harp on me for enjoying myself, but that's because they can't fathom the idea of someone enjoying their computing experience.
Dunno, since I've learned how to drive a manual, installing a gentoo is not an issue.
>What makes Linux so impenetrable for people?
low iq
I've always thought that it's similar to trying to the automatic/manual transmission thing. People into cars usually drive manual but everyone else (in North America) drives automatic. I drive automatic because I don't really care to be bothered with switching gears. I didn't even know what gears were when I first started driving.
I find that's similar to people using windows. It's like driving automatic.
ay
They just dont want to fiddle with the OS. A friend of mine is a pretty good programmer, tried running Linux on his laptop with Nvidia GPU. Distro hopping left and right and it didn't want to work flawlessly, instantly gave up and moved back to Windows.
I use Gentoo and hate manual.
I'm using linux at work. I just have a text file with commands to paste if I need something longer I can't be arsed to remember. Like the stuff you add to dd to make the percentage of files copied visible.
Meanwhile every time I want to lookup my WiFi passwords for whatever reason on win 10 I have to Google how to do it and tonmy horror they've changed the UI somewhere down the road so old guides are kinda wrong (but at least they name the element I have to search for)
>In my university, where a Unix course is required for our CS degree
I'm going to assume that this is not a "click here to open firefox, and click here to update your package lists" class, but rather a class about the deeper technicialities of Unix, e.g. "the kernel uses this-and-that process management to schedule threads ..."
So yeah, I can see why people find this difficult.
Using a computer boils down to a few things: filesystems, programs and program management, and settings.
With Linux, why are all the folder names retarded and not helpful? haha you're so 1337 for abbreviating everything to the point where a neophyte has no idea what they do. /etc? /lib? /bin? Fuck you.
With Linux, if you want a new program you don't just download it from a web browser, oh no. You have to add a "repo" to your "package manager". Eat my ass.
Finally, settings. Settings are buried in the non-intuitive filesystem and are all text files so you have to use some asinine text editor (vim), search around and edit the file. Kiss my dick. A window sure would be helpful right around then.
Why are so many commands abbreviated so you have no idea what they mean unless you refer to their man page? In Cisco IOS, at least you could type the whole name out OR stop when the command could be recognized as unique. No, instead Linux forces you to memorize a bunch of acronyms and abbreviations that only a bunch of autists could grasp in any reasonable amount of time.
If I want to zip a file, can I right click it and select zip? The fuck I can. I have to make it into a "tarball" (not funny, jackass) and choose my preferred compression tool (gzip? What's a G and why do I care?).
And god forbid you try to get network connectivity. It's literally the opposite of "it just works".
Linux sucks and it's only saving grace is it's free.
bin is an abbreviation? I always thought it was like, a bin. Like where you put all your programs. In the bin. The program bin.
It's short for binary
test
>haha you're so 1337 for abbreviating everything to the point where a neophyte has no idea what they do. /etc? /lib? /bin? Fuck you.
Some people would rather not get arthritis. You learn once, but you have to type it every time. So it's better for things to be short. You're obviously a troll though. 2/10 bait, I replied.
I don't know OP. I'm a a pure math major and I've used linux forever, but most of the CS kids in my school use Winblows or OSX
They started on Windows which is babby mode. They need to be spoon fed everything. "No 1 click install?! This is horseshit."
Literally anything can be done with Linux once you get over that hurdle of not having your hand held for everything.
I'll forgive you if you promise to compile with -Wall
>literal edgy teenager distros, like arch.
gr8 b8 m8
A lot of windows programs have bin folders. It's where the binaries are.
Because normies dont have the time to deal with the autism necesary.
I would know, I dragged my feet for years before learning properly to use vim and bash because it seemed too much (unjustified) hazle. I wish I had done it earlier though, now that I understand how powerful they were.
This.
People wanting to start with linux should be send to the ubuntu/mint department inmediatelly. If they care they change bh thenselves in the future.
This elitism/autism has cost many years to linux adoption, more normies, more support by companies.
I'm grateful to neckbeards making gnu/linux, but sometimes they should take their heads out of their asses and make things more friendly, it would help a lot.
Take a look at the command line tool "tldr" i believe you will like it.
There is some truth in what you say. Luckily those concerns are disapearing little by little with the latest DE and the use of packed applications.
Thanks.
Proper working ethics. Most programmers lack the discipline to write software that interacts well with an ecosystem, since it's complex. Even if you are not doing kernel development, if you write software that's supposed to scale well on unix/linux you should know how it works, that way you know how to design your software. With Java and all these horrible interpreted languages you don't really give a fuck, you assume that your jvm or underlying vm manages the low level stuff and you can worry about your abstract logic. Have seen that at the company i currently work for. An c application that is designed in a way that is barely scaleable because it's to generic and doesn't perform well enough because the linux internal knowledge was kept to a minimum. Now they reimplement that shit in Java and shift the original issue to the limitations of your typical jvm.
I'm trying to install Linux Mint to replace Win10 on my cheap lenovo but it won't boot with the usb for some reason.
Help a bro out
You need to select advanced startup from the recovery menu of Win10. Then choose boot from USB. Depending on the size of your HDD you might think to create a partition using the Win disk manager. Then, in properties of said new partition, make sure you indicate that this partition is not for use by Windows. I can't remember exactly how, it was quite clear. Then, when you chose to install the Mint you should be able to see the partition and install the Mint here. Then you will be able to run your Windows software (that you already have the license paid.) and use your new Linux computer. If you don't want to have Win then forget all the disk manager stuff and just install the Mint directly onto the main partition, but you will need a recovery usb if you wish to reinstall Win if or when you fuck up. Always backup your computers in any case.
saged for real advice
there is truth to what you say in specific instances but I take offense in
>all these horrible interpreted languages
Abstraction is the superior choice if you can afford it.
I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're referring to as Linux, is in fact, Lennart/Linux, or as I've recently taken to calling it, Lennart plus Linux. Linux is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another free component of a non functioning systemd system made useful by PulseAudio, Gnoam, bloat and networkmanager comprising a full OS as defined by RedHat.
Many computer users run a modified version of the Lennart system every day, without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of systemd which is widely used today is often called 'Linux', and many of its users are not aware that it is basically the systemd, developed by the RedHat and Lennart. There really is a Linux, and these people are using it, but it is just a part of the system they use.
Linux is the kernel: the program in the system that allocates the machine's resources to the other programs that you run. The kernel is an essential part of an operating system, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete operating system. Linux is normally used in combination with systemd: the whole system is basically systemd with Linux added, or Lennart/Linux. All the so-called 'GNU/Linux' distributions are really distributions of Lennart/Linux.
They don't understand that the carrot comes with a stick. Lots just "want to make video games lol".
I dont know why but for lot of people is so dificult learn and memlrize any linux command.
Me, alone with 14 years learned an equivalent level of lpic-1.its annoying
>Linux is the operating system: the entire system made useful by its included corelibs, shell utilities, and other vital system components.
Oh nice, the "factually wrong" edition.
it's because they use a shit desktop environment like xfce(which screentears out of the box)
they fall for the meme and don't want to use a desktop like gnome that actually works
it's not factually wrong though
>Linux is the best-known and most-used open source operating system. As an operating system, Linux is software that sits underneath all of the other software on a computer, receiving requests from those programs and relaying these requests to the computer’s hardware.
you must be one of the richard stallman cultists who says linux isn't an operating system
xfce is alright, depending on what the distro does to it.
GNOME is .. GNOME.
Mate is where people who after ~30 years of linux/UNIX don't want their setup fucked with by some "new design concepts" they don't give a shit about go.
Cinnamon is for people who want GNOME without their brand identity.
KDE is for people who can stand configuring it well enough to approximate it their idea of a good DE.
>trying to claim downloading executables that permanently alter your computer off some random website is superior to just typing "apt install "
jesus wintoddlers are all morons.
the fact that they are retards at the left end of the bell curve
You learn BASH, running a web server (usually Apache) and misc. other services. You might learn about kernel development and you'll certainly learn about basic *nix sysadmin tasks (creating users, passwords, setting permissions with chmod/chown). Entry-level shit, mostly. Most UNIX courses don't require prior programming experience, either.
Lastly, you'll be tested on how well you know (and understand) the FHS. Most profs throw you into a shell and teach you the most-used coreutils.
Here's a legit course overview: euclid.nmu.edu
Basic shit, really.
Heh, the Linshit class in my college was like the only one I got an A in
>posts screenshot of rando site and quotes it
>screenshot defeats the point he was trying to make as it continues to stress they use "Linux ther Kernel" and "Linux (based OS)" interchangeably
I see it less from an FSF perspective and more from an end-user perspective. What does the average Linux user really come in contact with? Userland stuff. Nobody really fucking cares about the technicalities that make the programs they want to use run.
And while I myself often use "Linux" in the OS sense when it is practical, I prefer avoiding naming the fucking Kernel altogether;
I call Fedora Fedora, not Fedora Linux.
Ubuntu, Debian, Manjaro, SUSE etc.. Unless I really associate "Linux" as something part of the name (like "Arch Linux" when I don't feel lazy) I don't add it. It's not the Kernel that makes any of these popular. It is merely what makes them possible.
Meanwhile, the GNU components ARE visible and enjoyed by users. I'll leave it at that.
I've worked with enough MSP techs to answer this. The reason is that they can't mentally model what they're doing with a computer at all. They rely on memorizing exact sequences of mouse clicks or keystrokes to navigate a user interface rather than understand WHY a command works and another doesn't. That's why Windows 8 was such a catastrophe - Microsoft changed how to do a bunch of things at once, so these people could literally not use their computers anymore.
It's not a matter of training. These people are permanently incapable of using a CLI with anything more than three or four commands. Their brains simply can't handle it. If Windows didn't exist they'd be plumbers or maids or whatever.
This faggot is a prime example of what I'm talking about.
I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're referring to as Linux, is in fact, GNU/Linux, or as I've recently taken to calling it, GNU plus Linux. Linux is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning GNU system made useful by the GNU corelibs, shell utilities and vital system components comprising a full OS as defined by POSIX.
Many computer users run a modified version of the GNU system every day, without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of GNU which is widely used today is often called "Linux", and many of its users are not aware that it is basically the GNU system, developed by the GNU Project.
There really is a Linux, and these people are using it, but it is just a part of the system they use. Linux is the kernel: the program in the system that allocates the machine's resources to the other programs that you run. The kernel is an essential part of an operating system, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete operating system. Linux is normally used in combination with the GNU operating system: the whole system is basically GNU with Linux added, or GNU/Linux. All the so-called "Linux" distributions are really distributions of GNU/Linux.
At least xfce works with minimal lag on regular hardware. Most of Linux DE is laggy. How can desktop be laggy? Even on mid tier hardware.
Linux has no DEs. Linux ius a kernel, a program in a system - such as the Android system of the GNU system fir example.
because they don't really care about learning linux, they just get frustrated that it doesn't do what they think it should, how it should, in relation to input.
tl:dr they want it to be windows
GNOME shoves more shit into a single thread than Windows has since the 90s, hence the lags. KDE is much better by comparison.
people think this is a bot, but I know it's really you richard. how do I know? because you're jewish and the jews can't let shit go, ever, and you literally have nothing else to do with your time. so just let me say this to your virtual face. you sir, are a jackass
KDE used to be fucking ridiculously slow depending on the setup. It still can be, but that's a matter of configuration, so it's unfair to harp on
Not at all. We should move the good practices to the frontend instead of throw shit to the others. The problem is not web development, it's just the mess inside the web world. including "dynamism" of Javascript. I'm working with TypeScript and doing some good practices and web development can be a good experience too. Problems come when you work on a project that was an anarchy since the beginning.
Yeah 4.x was pretty bad, but 5.x is much snappier.
KDE's biggest strength is in my opinion it's configurability. Sadly not even KDE can grant me my greatest wish for a Desktop environment.. Support for a LISP extension language (like GNOME supposedly had once)
the problem isn't the practices that the front-end people are using. The problem is that most of the things that they're doing are things that shouldn't be done at all, regardless of in what way they're done.
He's got a point - a lot of common interpreters are complete fucking garbage for things at serious scale. That's the big push to port scripting languages to .NET or the JVM, Oracle's new GraalVM which sounds really fucking weird but is supposedly faster than the JVM, and to make the new memory safe(ish) compiled languages like Go and Rust.
StumpWM is written in Common Lisp, and there's always emacs EXWM.
>he needs a web browser to get new programs
>he thinks the filesystem structure is non intuitive
>he thinks vim is complicated to use
>he thinks a GUI is superior to a CLI
1/10. Go buy a mac.
>I-it.s the jrws
>why dies nobody listen
>the jews are behind us
>the rule everything
>why woun't you wake up!
> it's the jews, the jews!
but it is the jews, they're the main problem in the middle east. there were stable democratic governments in the area till the three day war set the stage for multiple coups
Maybe the juice simply is the better thing and the Aryan is meant to die by evolution because of top dumbness.
Shit happens.
>the jews are better than you so stop fighting it and accept your masters
how about no
Everything is more annoying on Linux, more or less:
>download program on windows
>execute the .exe and you're done
versus
>download program on linux
>just kidding, you have to compile everything you want to install yourself
>living in an alternative reality full of fear.
Stop visiting Jow Forums, it makes you dumb.
no it makes you woke
No, it makes you dumb. Threre are no shit races, there are just shit people. Accept the truth already.
Because it is a different paradigm and people, even fags in the CS dept., don't want to change if they can help it.
took me becoming a neet and having nothing better to do to even go 100% loonix on my computing.
the jews aren't shit because they're jews, they're shit because of how the jews raise their kids to be elitist dickheads
it's just the majority of shit people happen to be black..
>just kidding, you have to compile everything you want to install yourself
this has to be bait
>StumpWM
oh so that's what happened to ratpoison, odd that I've never heard of it.
Thanks for pointing me towards it!
is this the birth of a new, epic meme?
Nope. Shitskins of all kinds are genetic trash.
There are good jews and bad jews just like there are good niggers and bad niggers and just like there are good americans and bad americans.
You think some people are badly educated? You're right. Does the place where the people are born play a role?maybe. Fact is, nobody is born bad. Nor you, nor a jew, nor a nigger.
Don't hate, educate.
Because a lot of programmers are single task aspies who cannot comprehend concepts of systems and communications. Seriously I have seen the same as you, the more aspie the less likely they will get any OS conceptually.