Okay fuck you bitches always trying to put newbies off programming and off simple languages...

Okay fuck you bitches always trying to put newbies off programming and off simple languages. I love this shit and I am gonna make it.

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Good for you, user. I had the same attitude years ago, and now I'm a full time code monkey who earns next to no money.

what language

They probably knock easy languages because pajeets are saturating the market for them and you have high hopes for earning a living from "specializing" in them.

I learnt PHP from when I was about 10-16, just because it's what I had available to me while I was using a shitty webhost called 000webhost. I wrote some fucking retardedly complicated shit in php because I couldn't be bothered to try anything else at the time.
I then wrote about 3 programs in c# and lied on my CV that I was proficient in it, got the job, then learnt it on the job. Then, when I wanted a new job, I lied on my CV again that I had experience with MVC and entity framework, was offered the job and learnt both in the two weeks between the offer and starting. It's pretty easy to bullshit, and it's pretty easy to learn a new language if you've got experience in at least one. (at least it is if you do something c based and not some shit like python. Even if you've got experience with JS you're better of than if you do with python.)

So yeah just lie a lot and learn how to google stuff effectively. That's half the skill.

I am doing python though

Then get out while you still can and learn something with semicolons and curly braces.

goddammit I just spent the last week getting over the 'what programming language should I start with' stress.

Honestly, if I were you I'd go with c#. It's extremely powerful but easy to get started with.

However, if you -do- decide to go with python, then it's not the end of the world. The concepts will be the same in the other languages, and you're also teaching yourself to -think- grammatically. It'll just feel less natural when you -do- upgrade to something more powerful. (which you'll definitely need to if you ever plan to do more than pajeet tier work)

Not grammatically, programmatically.

To be honest I am still in the beginner honeymoon stage, so it's probably a good time to switch language and I did see people try to get beginners away from Python because it's harder to grasp certain programming concepts.

I am doing this for a job, but I want to enjoy it at the same time.

Yeah. I would -highly- recommend not going for python. It's too easy. And that's not to say you shouldn't do it because it's easy, it's that it's so easy that you miss some stuff that'll be hard to pick up later when you've got used to doing things the python way.

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got any good suggestions on where to start learning c#?

Is it a universal sign of a bad programmer to obsess over the programming language they use?

Also a huge fallacy for people starting to learn programming - thinking it matters that much which language they choose.

Just choose whatever interests you. I'd even argue its more important to enable yourself to be able to tackle the projects and topics that genuinely interest you.

Not sure, really. The way I learnt was to think of something really out of my reach, then just stick bits of code that I found on stack overflow together until it worked. Of course, the end result was crappy, but it worked and I learnt a lot along the way.
However I'm not necessarily saying this would work for everyone, but for me, jumping in at the deep end has always been the best way.

I agree with you to an extent, as I said here , but I still think people are better off writing stuff with semi colons and curly braces, even if it's JS or PHP.

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so would python be fine as a first language?

OP if you want to make money in this field there are fundamentals you must know.
1. Mathematics: probability, set theory, mathematical induction and other proofs
2. Computer Architecture
Programming is using these tools to create things. Anybody who says they hate math and is a programmer is an idiot. I would focus on 3 things specifically - discrete mathematics fundamentals (many good books), computer architecture (Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs 2nd edition) and programming (The C Programming Language 2nd edition). I would also recommend X86 or arm alongside C once you are more familiar with what is going on. This is the best advice if you want to be a good programmer and make good money. If you want a shit tier job and to have no concrete knowledge of computers, do something else.

>000webhost
In case you weren't aware their database got breached just letting you know

I didn't do well at math during education but studying it later (now) I understand concepts better and enjoy it. I like philosophy too so stuff like set theory isn't foreign to me so I think with time I could easily fill in my mathematical knowledge gaps.

I'll grab that computer architecture book. Are you suggesting that C is a good place to start?

I mean what do you want to do here ultimately? Do you wanna study algorithms and how to procedurally solve problems? Any language will offer that to you.

Do you want to know how computers actually work and get into the nitty gritty of hardware? Then I'd argue it makes a lot of sense to start with C.

Do you want to do something practical? Make a robot do something, try computer vision stuff, build a game of some sorts or try to write your own webserver from scratch...

It can be really hard to decide on such things when you first start out. I know I never had anything specific in mind, but if you are about to ask these questions when just starting out the two most useful answers I would give are either "it doesn't matter" or "it depends on what you want to do". As unhelpful as that might sound.

Just talking from personal experience, I started with C myself but for most stuff I actually want to do I use Python on a daily basis, cause it just allows me to tinker with shit and actually get stuff done by myself.

can you be more specific? "programming" is way to broad, and there are things inside programming that sure as hell do not require all that shit

Yes, it is the only way. Every top tier university does so for a reason, if you are introduced to lower level concept early on, it will follow you and you will be a better programmer / problem solver as a result. After you learn fundamentals of how computers work then you can worry about higher level problem solving and OOP concepts. It might take you a little longer but you will benefit for the rest of your life as a result. And I hated math in high school as well but that's because they want you to plug and chug. Your interest in the philosophy aspect of it is exactly what you need, I now love math because of the same perspective. Concern yourself with proofs and concepts that tell you how things work and why they work instead of just using tools / formulas brainlessly. That is why I am telling you to start with C and computer architecture.

>It can be really hard to decide on such things when you first start out. I know I never had anything specific in mind,
I'm here at the moment. Building a game sounds fun but I don't really want to go in to game development. I enjoy formal logic and like solving problems. Python feels like a really simple way of doing that kind of stuff.

...

Unity is awesome because you can make some cool and interesting stuff with a small amount of code, but at the same time you're grasping the important concepts of that code. Maybe you're not interested in games but it's a good place to start from if you are. My first language was actionscript (making flash games) and it taught me a lot, and you don't have to write any boilerplate to, for example, get things to draw to the screen or animate sprites.

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No there isn't. All programming requires that and uses all of these concepts, they are always related. Whether or not the programmer understands this determines whether he is incompetent or not. Good jobs require versatility, anybody can learn to hack code. That's why some people get paid more.

Yes python is a great language. But think if you didn't have that c background at all. You wouldn't know shit. Learning isn't about getting things done.

Thanks, I'm pretty confident that over time I can grasp all of these concepts, it's just the time that I am worried about as I am unemployed. The silver lining is I can use it to teach myself something useful.

No harm in downloading it and having a play about I guess. Games could be fun, but I am concerned about the amount I would have to learn vs. something like Python.

Get an entry level job that is not programming. It will take a year of SERIOUS studying to comprehend a lot of this, and that's assuming you are competent. It is important you learn these things all at one time and not separately. I would say if you want to be a webdev, don't listen to me. I you are genuine about your interest in CS and want to pursue a career that pays well and contributes meaningfully to the field, follow my advice. How old are you?

Don't worry. Haven't used them for years.

22

I'm not saying stuff like is even conceptually wrong. You benefit greatly from having a good understanding of basic concepts of computers and programming, especially in the long run.

But it's also kinda fun to be able to get some things done quickly and not deal with cumbersome things at every step, that are abstracted away for you in other languages.

If you feel you got the tenacity to sit through the hard lessons from the start, by all means do C, but then do C directly and not C# (they are very different) as someone else suggested.

But contrary to what people were saying doing stuff with Python is actually also great, specifically because you will not have to worry about the hardware level that much. If you want to stick with Python I would suggest staying much more on the algorithmic side of things. Search algorithms, sorting, shortest path and all such stuff that is fundamentally quite mathematical in nature. They're fun to do and teach you to do problem solving very well.

The danger with python is that so many things have already been solved for you, that it becomes easy to just slap together a couple of libraries to do things for you. If you can resist that temptation then it's fine however. Also working with an interactive interpreter is just neat at the start.

>Is it a universal sign of a bad programmer to obsess over the programming language they use?
Depends on the language. If it is a functional language like lisp or haskell, it means they are high taste programming wizards

If OP learns something like Dijkstra's algorithm without understanding the fundamental of graphs in discrete theory, knowing when/why to use algorithms will be essentially taking people's word for it. Same goes for any algorithm. Even a for loop or recursion, if one cannot mathematically prove recursive method's efficiency, his knowledge is useless. The world doesn't need more programmers like that.

If you want to follow my advice, I can lead you in a good direction of where to start and where to go from there. has a point though in saying it will feel tedious sometimes, although if you are interested in computers it is still fun in my opinion ( I am also a psychopath who enjoys low level optimizations ). There is a reason there is a large pay gap in this field, it's hard. But you are young and will be glad you did so later on, there is no doubt about that.

I agree that a fundamental understanding is important to be able to actually use stuff correctly, but it's not all such a linear progress. You can definitely learn a lot from understanding and implementing algorithms without a complete understanding of the proofs and theory that went into them. I'd even argue being somewhat literate with things in a practical way can make you appreciate the theory more afterwards.

Also it's somewhat counterproductive to postpone this kind of stuff for too long. In the long run it also depends on what you end up working with. I personally deal much more with the math side of programming these days than when I started out, but that would not have been approachable for me from the start without the prior background in programming.

22 is young. I didn't start learning until I was 25 and subsequently went back to school for it. Now I'm a graduate student in CS doing data analytics and optimization. I had to do a lot of catching up, since I didn't even come from a STEM background previously, but it was definitely fun.

This is bullshit. Real world programming is so heavily abstracted that it doesn't deal with memory, architecture or even math.

Fuck unity.

I agree it can be counterproductive to postpone OOP and algorithms for too long. But c is a small language. The math part is lifelong but the fundamentals of discrete mathematics is essential and not too intensive. I only recommended 2 books + 1 other of OP choice, that's not too much.

If OP takes those seriously and works a few hours every day, he will have a relatively good understanding in a few months. And c projects are fun and cool things can be made with c early on, as I am sure you are aware. No job is going to be ok with teaching OP basic concepts so he can move on to more advanced math/programming as you may be doing.

The most important thing is to not let failure discourage you. These things are hard and take time to learn.

> real world programming
> not even specifying a field
t. brainlet neet

It's good. Yes, lots of shitty games are made in unity, but that's a testament to how easy it is to use.

Its a pain in the ass to use, after working with it for about half a year I never want to touch that shit again.

monolingual babby

oh

NOOB

t. anvato asset customizer

you're not a programmer, onionboy

why wouldnt you start with c++? Nobody who's going to pay you will ask you to program in anything higher than c++.

This is me. I hated math in school. I didn't gove a fuck how many apples john had and sure didnt give a fuck about imaginary numbers, I was still struggling with real ones.

Fast forward to when I started my career and when I started teaching myself to code and all the math started making sense. I just needed it presented in a functional way.

The way math is taught in school is bullshit.

I am trying to learn C# now. Why? My company uses Epicor and I am the only one with enough computer knowledge to custimize it and write BAQs and BPMs. Job security.

any rec for math books on those subjects?

>I started teaching myself to code
>I am trying to learn C# now

you're a liar or a brainlet.

First read Discrete Mathematics and its Applications, Kenneth Rosen, McGraw Hill, 6th edition. Then move on to Theory of Computation texts. Make sure you are reading the discrete, c, and architecture book at the same time. It also helps keeps things interesting to do so.

also do all the exercises for all the books

godspeed user

I feel like throwing all of this info at you without a schedule is a bit overwhelming. I am too busy at them moment to help you plan things out. I could help you in a few days if you repost or something

never gonna make it

Don't listen to people who sound like this

source am gainfully employed writing python

Sanity. I believe most people in this thread do not have jobs.

Quick test observe how much time someone spends bragging about how much they love a language compared to how much they talk about design, databases, etc.

t. brainlet codemonkey

JavaScript is the best language to learn.

>I lied on my CV again that I had experience with MVC and entity framework
did the same thing with Scala