The Perfect Programming Language doesn't exi

Hey Jow Forums What's the most neutral relevant, modern, and fast programming language of all?

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quora.com/C-programs-are-compiled-using-gcc-which-itself-is-written-in-C-so-how-code-for-gcc-is-compiled
gcc.gnu.org/wiki/Libstdc
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we C men are proud me. Heres to C men.

You cant please everyone but a good bet would be python that compiles to C code I reckon

>Modern
>Relevant
What is this PyObject transpiler sorcery you speak of?

get off the internet immediately please

then write modern C you asshole

while(1){
printf("NERD ");
}

algol 68

>modern
C is modern, since the intended input methods haven't really changed since it's inception.
>neutral
There are too many pointless vendor extensions however there are two popular standards so who cares.
>fast
goes without saying.
>relevant
exclude the JS fad and it's the most popular language.

>C is modern, since the intended input methods haven't really changed since it's inception.
Nice mental gymnastics
>exclude the JS fad and it's the most popular language.
Would love to see the source on that.

>c isn't relevant.
Name one piece of software that doesn't run on C.

Google Chrome, GCC is written in C++, Game Engines.

C++ is written in C

Would love to see proof on that. C++ is definitely written in C++ and assembly

>"c with classes" wasn't written in C.
ok champ.

C with classes =/= C++
No idea what you're going on about.

It's not anymore. It was bootstrapped. And now even most C compilers (gcc, clang, msvc, pgcc, icc) are written in C++.

That depends on what you mean by fast. If a virtual machine is fast enough, then C#. Otherwise, C++ (used in the modern way), but trying to be mostly compatible with C is really holding it back.

run your c++ program with no c runtime then

Nope. Python is an abomination needing excessively autistic spacing rules to be followed. Ffs this is 2018.

C/C++ or Perl is all you need.

>C with classes =/= C++
Oh man!! if you say so it must be true!
considering Stroustrop himself called it C with classes before naming C++ (which is the increment operator since i'm sure you fizzbuzz in python.)

>Being this petty
There are plenty of C++ runtime libraries

C is underrated is all I can say.
If you want a relatively safe language with a good abstraction for multithreading use go.
Both are quite similar, as they don't have too many features, which is almost always a good thing.
My thinking in 2018 is like this:
do I need to be predictably real or near-real time?
If yes, then use C.
If not use go (although go is getting in the territory where you can just use it for mostly everything except ultra-fast pure number crunching, eg. games)

I have learned so many languages and I don't really get the point of them anymore.
All the stuff that comes with them is just a pain in the head.
Only purely functional languages have some advantage at least (especially when it comes to DSLs), but in the end I don't know if it's really worth it.
As I see it, FP is made for the head, and works only ok for the computer at best.

On a sidenote, C becomes more enjoyable when you use the single-header-file trick.

hmm, you got me curious. Can you run a Haskell program without a C runtime?

Oh, and I'm also patiently waiting for Jai.
If it turns out like I expect it to, it will be fucking great.

Yes, it's the predecessor to C++, not C++. Again C++ is fully written in C++, that's there end goal, to phase out C everywhere it's not needed. Regardless, I could probably defend your opinion better than you.

I'm not giving a shit about defending, that would mean I was arguing on the internet like some retard. (You)

machine code, of course

I'm assuming not with a program compiled by ghc.

>Modern
>Relevant
>posted from: OS written in C

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But you are arguing like a retard. You're defense is the 35+ year old dead prototype to the language we're arguing about.

>gets BTFO into orbit
>"Arguing in the internet is retarded"
t. retard

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On an internet browser written in C++, in a website written in HTML, CSS, and JavaScript.

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Bootstrap gcc without a c runtime.

>c is useless and irrelevant today

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>safety critical
>C is used
it is relevant only in that you should PANIC AT ALL TIMES

>Angry retards back
Again, there are many C++ run-time libraries. Since we're talking in circles, GCC is also written in C++. A C compiler sounds pretty fundamental.
quora.com/C-programs-are-compiled-using-gcc-which-itself-is-written-in-C-so-how-code-for-gcc-is-compiled

it's pretty retarded to insist that c++ compilers are bootstrapped in any meaningful way.

MISRA C is the best language

>Hey Jow Forums What's the most neutral relevant, modern, and fast programming language of all?
D

Java is the best language there is. The ecosystem is just too good. C# could be there but fuck MS

So, bootstrap gcc without a c runtime.
Let me know how far you get.

Pretty fucking much, unfortunately I've rarely seen it actually used, and that's what I meant by relevant. Hopefully time will change that.

>Java is the best language there is.
>The ecosystem is just too good.
That's like a reverse non-sequitur or something. Java is an objectively abysmal language no matter how robust the ecosystem. So use Kotlin or something.

I don't plan on getting my hands dirty with runtime libraries to prove a point to some idiot.
gcc.gnu.org/wiki/Libstdc
You're completely grasping at straws when the almighty runtime library you mention is written in C, which btw compiles to C++.

Dlang's just slowly boiling in the background somewhere. It doesn't get as much press as it gets use, I suspect. It gets no press though so that's still not a lot of use.

Does MISRA Cepples cover x14+ yet?

Seconding Perl

C doesn't have strings so I can see why people would want Perl but its SO FUCKING SLOW. Use Awk, it's like a funky printf language thats exclusively for stringing.

>single-header-file trick.
explain?

>Not using CIAC
wikileaks.org/ciav7p1/cms/page_26607644.html

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>ISO C++98
>Currently C++17
Since 2012, GCC is primarily implemented in C++, guess what language that compiles too.

Believe it or not, if you actually use return codes like you're supposed to and don't just write code like a fucking street shitter then C is pretty easy to use safely.

machine code, you dumb ass

Yes, but using what language Compiler?

But you always have to expect every piece of code to be written by a street shitter tier codemonkey. Relying on coder skill is just impossible in current century. The most dangerous it could possibly be is too potentially dangerous to trust.

Cepples is actually better at that, in modern stuff you're basically instructed to never ever use malloc or new and shit.

Make your own c struct then plus some helper functions or use the built-in library functions. Since it's c, you can pretty much do whatever you want.

Perl is based on awk. Awk is great but it’s not a Swiss Army knife like Perl.

>wikileaks.org/ciav7p1/cms/page_26607644.html
>On modern processors smaller code usually runs faster due to better use of the instruction cache.
By the time all the exploits on these modern processors are fixed this will no longer be true.

Basically you can completely simplify and speed up the build process by only writing header files for libraries.
You do this by placing the definitions and implementations in a single header file.
Doing this, the compilation just becomes an 'insert text here' problem, which makes everything 100x better.
I can't tell you how many times I have wondered what the hell is going on in my programs the traditional way (not the right shit was rebuilt, so new code was linked against old code)
This way it's no problem at all. Ever.
And it's also much much faster.
I really don't know why this isn't the standard.

This way for one of my projects my build script is just:
clang main.c -O2 -std=gnu99 -lglfw -lm -ldl -lGL -lX11 -lpthread gl3w.o -o main


No more gay make, or even worse cmake or premake and such shit

The stb libraries are a quite good example
github.com/nothings/stb
There is also an how-to there, which explains the details.

>But you always have to expect every piece of code to be written by a street shitter tier codemonkey. Relying on coder skill is just impossible in current century
Not for OpenBSD. You just need to be autistic enough to look at every line of code that comes into the project is all.

haha sounds like semen haha

This meme of imaginary non-shit C code has been thoroughly discredited by years and years of the same types of security flaws appearing over and over again. It made sense in the 80s, but now that language belongs in the trash.

Yeah, perl is a swiss army knife with includedd rubber hammer and gibberish generator. Awk is a fucking string scalpel. It does one thing very very well. That thing is parse input into printf. Great lang for a specific domain.

Yeah I'm not saying it really matters for skilled programmers. If OP wants to be a solo wizard C is a great choice.

Every programmer can have a bad day, foot-shooty langs are punishing on those days. Most of my preferred langs are like that and there's still better error-catching tools now than ever before.

Still waiting on that answer bro

What makes C a great choice? There's no lambda expressions, polymorphism, not even methods. Please don't post boilerplate workarounds to those examples, the language is meant to be functional. It's great for memory consumption, and speed, but computers are getting faster and more sustainable.

That would depend on your architecture tho

C is for writing your own optimizations, wizard shit thats usually not necessary and never trustworthy, basically. C is for being clever with not being average to dumb.

Theres some preprocessor stuff that can set up lambdas and thus methods if thats your thing. You could also just jump over to C++ and write C with those features you felt were lacking. C code is perfectly valid C++ code in most cases but it's actually kinda hard to out optimize C++'s std. C++ is much safer to be dumb with as long as you can handle the verbosity. There's a happy medium somewhere between C and C++.

Yeah Computers are getting faster and Software is getting slower so it cancels each other out aka Wirth's law

>What makes C a great choice?
The realization that you don't need >lambda expressions, polymorphism, not even methods.

Really when you're writing for scale being able to optimize to whatever is going to max the cores out is important. Just so happens thats simple big imperative loops of fixed memory size.

how many times will you miss the point

that's just being a glutton for tools. Tools that get you further away from the actual solution to the problem, for some advantage that usually has nothing to do with the problem itself.

>There's no lambda expressions, polymorphism, not even methods.
so I can debug it then

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I'm not that impressed by Kotlin. I'd rather just use Java desu. Clojure is neat, though.

Ada 2012 with SPARK 2014. Based and suck it.

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I like Ada but I never learned that much of it. How fast is it?

> modern
Current C++, Java/Scala/Kotlin, Python, JS, Go and all the other things people use

> fast
Your good choice of algorithms and/or 3rd party software frameworks.

See, even if you can spend a year optimizing a small hack in ASM and it may end up being the worldwide bedt implenentation of that, you're unlikely to implement the full functionality of Apache Spark or the Linux kernel on your own, never mind optimize it more than the originals...

The newer JVM languages are as good as it gets.

>cross platform
>repl
>not as fast as c++ but much faster than glorified scripting languages like python
>oo and fp
>able to access the java ecosystem which is the most comprehensive at the present time

Optimization == hardcoded domain specific exceptions.

>American disablity act
>needing training wheels to program
pottery

I guess by fast you mean execution time of an application on an OS - with all safeties on it's within 20% of C. But the real target is bare-metal, high-integrity, real-time, embedded systems - it's the fault-tolerant, fail-safe, fail-secure arena.

You need training wheels to operate the program. In some case you're going to need all the safety checks anyway so they might as well be built into the language. I'm just worried about shit like Dynamic_Predicate being too slow for anything at scale. I haven't gotten into SPARK yet though.

Java

Fortran 95

what do you use it for?

Well I am trying to get into it since I'm currently writing type checks everywhere in Cepples by hand. Sanitizing the fuck out of strings of arbitrary numbers is hell.

>rather use Java
Then you are not using your language well, honestly. I mean some things are up for debate, but even if all you used about Kotlin was its proper enumeration/iteration rather than the clusterfuck you have to deal with with even the basic Java collections, much less Java 8 streams (or even worse not using it at all and using something stupid like explicit for loops) then you would be getting a substantial amount out of the transition.

Java is an ancient, decrepit, terrible language and I honestly can't concede any reason to ever use it as a language other than being forced to.

how many reqs/s can a web server in ada handle

Java can be as fast as c++

did you forget my baby sql?

As fast as very slow C++.

Clojure is pretty much dead. Scala killed it.

no, hotspot is very fast, compiles frequently run code down to machine code and graalvm can do even better

LOL

Not true, hardly anyone actually uses Scala.

I'd be all for Scala but there's just no ide support.

What planet do you live on brah?

All of the data engineering work is done in Scala. Clojure in production is pretty much limited to Clojurescript.

See the tiobe index

>Dlang's just slowly boiling in the background somewhere. It doesn't get as much press as it gets use, I suspect. It gets no press though so that's still not a lot of use.
What's actually written in D besides the D compiler?