Should studying STEM subjects be free at university?

In a market economy, if you are guaranteed access to something, regardless of cost, the cost will go up.
If you are guaranteed education via loans, the cost of education will go up. Why would they keep it down? You can pay whatever they ask for, the state guarantees it.

>donated to corrupt countries where people won't see a fucking dime
>muh feels though!

BRAINLET

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>It's mostly poor children who have bad grades at school for obvious reasons. Parents can't help them with homework, tough time at home, no money for stuff that could help them with school etc.
These are people who need remedial and high school level courses, and tutors to help them grasp the material. That is what should be provided. Putting them in college would not help them. It would be like tossing a kid who doesn't know how to swim overboard in the middle of a lake.

naysayers are cancer desu

fuck off you naive ignorant retard

Yeah idiot go take money out of your bank and donate it to shitty nigger governments.

God youre an idiot.

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>just make everything free :DDD

fuck off retard

I agree with you but the post you replied to is referring to a test to enter the university before getting the funding. If you have internet access everything should easily be learned from there if it is HS level things.
So if someone had a bad childhood and school experience, they can still get it if they show they're dedicated now.

I'm an 18yo raised by a super broke single mother.
I didn't go to school at all for 2 years when my mother was going way crazier than usual so I am still in high school in the same grade I should be as a 16yo.
Just this last year I started getting my shit together and I got really good grades.
If getting free university is based on your HS grades then I would definitely be able to do it now, but if it wasn't for those 2 years lost I'd be doomed now even though I just got my shit together and want to do well.

Found the American

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I'm and I am not naysaying, I've given what I consider to be a very valid reason.

Loans are not free education. Look at what America does with K-12. You can pay tuition to go to a private school, or you can go to a public school for only the cost of school supplies like backpack, binders, paper, etc. The schools are funded by cities through taxes. The system works, and could potentially be extended to college as well. It wouldn't replace existing private colleges or force them into anything; it would just provide a publicly funded alternative.

However I also think that such schools should also be somewhat selective -- if everyone is admitted, it drags the level of the courses down to the level of the lowest common denominator.

I already am studying STEM for free.

Yes. But to qualify you have to demonstrate that you really are putting in the effort and have the abilities to succeed.
Free Universities shouldn't subsidize failure.

My mother was living on welfare for quite some time, I still managed to easily get into University.
Being poor doesn't mean that you can't put effort in.

If you are guaranteed to get paid by the state, you raise the cost. Raising the cost on the market would cost you customers, but raising the cost when your only client is the state won't do much. The state will pay 10k per student, or 20k per student, or 30k per student, or whatever you ask "within reason".
Essentially its the same thing. Being guaranteed that you will sell your service no matter the cost, you ask for more than its worth.

Yes because public education is so effective we should just extend it for 4 more years. Why don't they just actually teach kids shit when they are in high school? Education is accessible by everyone and it's even enforced by the state with things truancy laws. It's just that they don't educate well enough in high school.

Found the Commie

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Yeah not like they can't get their shekels back easily.

Public schools here don't just send a bill to the town or state and get it paid. The state provides a certain amount that the state decides on. And if that isn't enough, towns can vote to raise their own property taxes to pay for improvements to their schools. Of course since it's up to a vote, the schools then have to sell their proposal to the residents.

My town does exactly this for K-12. Residents seem to fall into 3 basic camps:
>my kids go to those schools so of course I want this
>I don't have kids in public school but good schools are something this town is known for and tends to drive up property values
>I don't have kids in public school so screw that

We have free university in Greece, with a score thing in place
It fucked up the rest of the education
Everyone studies for the uni entrance exams from pretty much junior high, and ignores every class and subject that's irrelevant to that
It practically neutered half the teaching experience prior to university, and made every student (me included) focus on studying over a group of possible questions that uni entrance exams usually use
Don't fall for the free university meme

>My mother was living on welfare for quite some time, I still managed to easily get into University.
>Being poor doesn't mean that you can't put effort in.

M8, I didn't even have a fucking table until 7th grade. Did all my homework on the ground, parents did not speak the country's language and was still able to always be top 3 of my class.

But just because you and I managed, it doesn't mean that everyone can. Poor people are automatically at a huge disadvantage and if you're too stupid to see that, maybe you aren't that smart after all.

Germany here, we have a significantly different system.
There are no entrance exams, the decision whether you get in or not is based how well you did in school.

Your grades from the final two years old highschool are averaged (it's a bit more complex then that) and that final grade determines what you can do in University.

How does that protect you from favoritism, ie teachers overgrading all students they teach?

This sounds like a failing of the testing and university entrance system, not of them being free.

>parents did not speak the country's language
Sucks for you, but I really have no sympathy for you, taxpayers shouldn't subsidize foreigners, at least my family HAD put money into the system for generations.

>But just because you and I managed, it doesn't mean that everyone can.
If he can't he shouldn't get in.
It is as simple as that, the government shouldn't subsidize failures.

>Poor people are automatically at a huge disadvantage
Yes and if they can't overcome that they don't deserve to go to University. I don't want my or my parents money subsidizing failure.

It doesn't. Everyone tries to be on the good side of the teacher and it's fucking disgusting

t. entitled little bitch that doesn't know what empathy is.

It doesn't although since there are so many grades from so many teachers it is unlikely that a single teacher makes a difference.
It also teaches the kids how the world works, there are also final exams which take up Al rather large part of the grade.

I also didnt mention that a failing economy usually fucks up the entire free university thing since all the electronics equipment etc we have are from the 80s, and computers from the late 2000s (E&CE student)
But it's Greece so it's definitely a specific case
As for the entrance exams etc, maybe it's due to Hypernormalisation but I cant really see any other alternative to how it could work with a free university in place

>If kids don't all have macbooks and tablets they can't learn
All schools should provide are books and a library that's all you need to succeed. If anything forcing all this technology is just a distraction and excuse for kids who don't want to learn to procrastinate and avoid learning. If you have enough to keep yourself alive day to day and the school can rent you out a couple decent textbooks for free, you have everything you need to succeed. Kids getting bullied for hand me down clothes and not having nice shoes is not a disadvantage to their education. Culture is more of a disadvantage to education than wealth at least in the US.

>entitled little bitch
Yes. Indeed I am entitled to the education my family payed the state for.

>doesn't know what empathy is
I do. I don't empathize with people who enter a country and suck the taxpayers of his money.
If you are poor and put in the effort you can make it, if not learn a trade and after that you may qualify to get a degree.

I acknowledge that being poor is a huge disadvantage. However, throwing people who are unqualified into university anyway is doing them a giant disfavor. Depending what happens, either they will flunk out almost immediately, or their classes will be dumbed down enough that they can succeed. The former leaves them where they started but with a hit to their self esteem. The latter hurts everyone else.

The correct solution is the address this disadvantage directly. That means helping the kid find stability as s/he grows up, providing quiet places to focus, tutoring, etc. Throwing people into university before they're able to understand the classes there is not the answer.

Austria here, we have a significantly different system.
There are no entrance exams and the only prerequisite is that you graduated high school.

>the only prerequisite is that you graduated high school.
But the University has to somehow select which students it takes, right?

Where the fuck did I say that?
Funnily enough 8 to 15 years ago, some teachers required us to print stuff, but we were too poor to buy a printer, so I always got shit on by the teachers.

You're just a dumb fashist with 0 arguments, so fuck off brainlet.

Sure, absolutely. They need help to at the earliest possible time. Btw, most majors seed out in the first semester anyway

Not him, but it's fascist and he's not that, don't degrade the term because it only helps out real fascists

the big university takes pretty much everyone. that's why we have 92000 students.

the only caveat is that you can't advance until you complete the first three or four modules of the major, and get banned for 3 years if you fail any component of those more than twice or something.

>You're just a dumb fashist
It is written Fascist and no I am not one. I identify as a left liberal.

>with 0 arguments
I provided arguments your response was to call me a fashist.
One of us has no arguments and that is you.

That is a rather interesting system too.

Pretty much all of Europe has free universities of some sort, some work better than others, I haven't seen any that aren't flawed, and I haven't seen any that don't work better for the middle and high classes
To clarify, i'm not against that, it can't work any other way unless you massively fuck society up with socialism etc

In Georgia we got something called Hope Scholarship that gives people with a certain GPA free scholarship money off our state lottery. I'm thinking it was like 3.5 for college.

But here's the kicker because our state knows what's up, if you go to tech/trade school it was only like 2.5 or 2.0 GPA for full ride.

Our state knows STEM is an investment and treats it like so, if the economy is good due to more STEM and trade skills then more people will have cash to spare into the lottery.

It's like a capitalists answer to socialism, if you actually work and do good in school you keep your scholarship for free, if not you're on your own.

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>fashist
I think "socialist" may be the word you're looking for. Socialists want the basics to be provided to everyone for free. Fascists want a strong central authority.

>Where the fuck did I say that?
It's a hyperbolic extrapolation just for shitposting purposes. The point of my post is that the gap between poor kids and wealthy kids isn't as huge as people say it is since learning isn't proportional to money spent on education. I will grant that a lot of schools and education systems are doing it wrong and fucking it up thinking technology is the key to unfucking their curriculums and tanking test scores and that's how you get shit like teachers who demand shit like printed papers or emailed docx/pdfs when the content should matter more than the formats.

If you thought American higher education is expensive, just wait until it's free

docx/pdf is a meme and a mistake really, but I haven't really seen a poorer person with a pc NOT running windows on it
As for the "tech is the end all be all" of education these days, that's government backed

Hamza Bendelladj
>His cracks would have diverted more than 280 million dollars, which he claims to have redistributed to various Palestinian NGOs.
Contents
>which he claims
>claims

15 years seems like a pretty light sentence given the charges

It's really not possible to make it free, you'd have to up taxes another 10%, and richer people can always just move country and leave the poor and middle classes to pay those taxes (which is what happened in Greece)
Socialist ideals only work with caricatures of human beings that can't think for themselves, not in real economies

Because its fake
Old Jow Forums meme

>teachers who demand shit like printed papers or emailed docx/pdfs when the content should matter more than the formats
Insisting on docx or PDF is not to teach anything. It's to enable the teacher's workflow. For one thing, a teacher should not have to go fishing for "how to open Pages document on Windows" periodically and then dust off an old copy of WordPerfect for that one special student who submits in a weird format. For another, docx includes a feature where you can attach comments off to the side of the page without inserting content into the document. Many teachers who do digital submission use this to leave notes and return the document to the student.

That's what I meant. In my post I tried to convey the fact that subsidizing higher education will only make it more expensive, not less, as evident by the student loans bubble, which created a pipeline of free money from governments to universities. Sorry if it wasn't clear.

Yeah I know, I'm backing up your statement f a m

Wow, those African countries can buy a lot of AK-47s with that money.

>subsidizing higher education will only make it more expensive, not less, as evident by the student loans bubble, which created a pipeline of free money from governments to universities
Then do it as a public venture. We already know doing this as public funding for private institutions just draws the pigs to the trough.

I meant it more as the paper should matter more than the way it is presented. There is nothing actually making it impossible to grade handwritten papers unless your handwriting is ridiculously bunk. It's all to serve the teachers workflow and making their job easy and automated rather than the education of the student. I only even brought it up as an example because the guy said he was chided for not printing out a paper. There is plenty of other unnecessary bullshit practices teachers force on kids that only exist on kids because they want to make their own lives easier or they think technology is the solution to a failing education system. Somehow they believe doing math/chemistry problems on some fucking publisher website is more effective than doing it on paper even though kids just open another tab to a page with the answers. Or that having every class be a boring ass power point slide reading instead of using the whiteboard/chalkboard and engaging with the students is somehow optimal. I consider myself lucky that I missed out on misguided teaching practices like these. Kids today are fucked regardless if you give them free university or not.

They are buthurt jews. This guy is a hero.

> to steal banking information stored on infected computers.He hacked the official website of the Israeli government.[7] His cracks would have diverted more than 280 million dollars, which he claims to have redistributed to various Palestinian NGOs.

"richer people" don't leave the US because they seriously cannot work their schemes elsewhere
a 10% tax hit isn't going to bother them, hell making them pay their entitled share of taxes without the tax loopholes isn't going to hurt them either, they just don't want to

I'm so tired of courts and "judicial process". I just want these people to be shot in the face and left in the desert

>poor African countries
niggers
>and Palestine
muslim niggers
Free tip to you feelgood warriors: nobody likes niggers. Donating money to niggers is like donating signed Sartre manuscripts to chimpanzees. They will wipe their ass with it, and indeed can only wipe their ass with it, because they are chimpanzees.

That's the problem with standardized tests; they deprive you from learning and enable memorization. No critical thinking, just rigid paths for your neurons to travel through. Here in the USA, most students ask "will it be in the test?" If it's not they give two fucks.

QuickTip! Brough to you by American Taxpayer(tm)!

Join us for the "Nothing is Free!" lecture, where university administrators explain how gender changes everything from dorm rooms to Evolution 101, and you have to pay more now.

(Don't miss the conference on Healthcare where we all agree to pay vast sums to make a man into a dickgirl on somebody else's dime.)

Community college is free for those who cannot afford it. Isn't that good enough?

>I am no commie but

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Studying anything useful pays for itself. Merit based scholarships, community colleges, loans, or some combination thereof will get you the initial capital.

Who pays for it? Generous donors? Go ahead and organize it then. Of course that isn't what you want. You want someone to steal the funds for it under threat of violence. That is how governments work, of course. Either you do exactly what they demand or they fine you. If you don't pay the fine they arrest you or seize your property. If you resist that they kill you or send you to prison, depending on how well you fight back. So what you want is a gang of armed thugs to steal my property to pay for the healthcare of obese transsexuals and their liberal arts degrees, too. Sorry, but that's not going to happen. You should just die if you contribute so little to society that you can't afford to have society keep your pathetic ass alive.

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Nobody's stopping you from starting a philanthropic organization that would see thing as you do and provide enough funding so that everyone can attend for free since so many people apparently see it your way.

>this is what ancaps actually believe

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University should be free, but unironically. If it was, then the universities wouldn't need to spend so much money building shit they don't need to attract students. They could actually afford to fail students, because a failed student wouldn't be lost revenue.

The government already funds this shitty system, might as well stop pretending they're not. Maybe once there's no profit motivation, universities will stop being glorified technical schools

That's barely even a right winged opinion, much less ancap
Basic economics have shown that it's bound to be more expensive
Austrian economics practically claim that it'll completely ruin the educational system (which it will)

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The rich only abandon ship when the country goes broke. Greece happens to be one of the few that managed this without going full commie. The rich continue to operate is the US despite rising taxes by moving their taxable assets out of the country or just lying about them. Just look how little Apple pays.

Yeah they remained BECAUSE they evade taxes
If they had to actually pay them? No way jose

When I did my degree the cost of the course would depend on how important for lack of a better word it was. So for instance doing a chemistry degree was considered a higher priority than arts for instance. It wasn't necessarily STEM on the priority list as I remember accounting was top priority whilst something like Civil Engineering was 2nd priority.

Yes, that's what I said. The point of contradiction being the rich won't ever leave due to taxes because tax evasion is fucking easy. Only when the country starts falling apart due to things such as bankruptcy (Greece 2007), severe currency inflation (Germany 1918), or communism (so many so often when will we learn) do the rich roll up the mat and boogie.

Well yeah, because 2/3 equal the currency being devalued consistently
In the case of Greece, it was primarily because it was all imports anyways and noone would buy anything like brands etc

By making non STEM and meme degrees more expensive

That image is retarded. There is zero evidence there was any money donated and it was far less than 4 billion.

If University is shitty to the point that you can't make ROI then what would making it "free" accomplish? College is unironically a waste of time for most Americans.

University should be free for the best students. Zoomers that waste their time clubbing should just work at the nearest McDonalds

Just want to encourage more people to go into STEM fields? Offer more scholarships specifically for STEM. Offer them to anyone going into a STEM degree program who's got grades that suggest they won't just flunk out in the first year.

>the big university takes pretty much everyone. that's why we have 92000 students.
What a waste of taxpayer's money

I don't think it is that expensive, first year lectures are usually held in large auditoriums, if it is 100 or 500 doesn't matter.

I was one of the worst students in school but one of the best in university, grades doesn't mean shit and uni should be free for everyone that wants to try it.

Donated to Palestine?

Should be shot.

spotted the jew

They get the bullet too.

>Implying (((they))) can't just print more money

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>Austrian economics practically claim that it'll completely ruin the educational system (which it will)

Austrian economics is autism

>I don't know how economics work

>extracted
He stole it.
>donated it all
Good man.
>Palestine
Muzzie supporter. Bad man.

And yet, I still have more respect for this guy than for Snowden, who was in a very similar situation (broke the law to do the morally right thing) but didn't face the consequences of his actions.

>getting locked up instead of living your life is what gets this user's respect
damn i totally want your respect

If you break the law, it's off to the cubes.

Me too, now I'm jealous...