GNOME dev on removing third party theming from GTK

samuelhewitt.com/blog/2018-08-05-moving-beyond-themes

>FreeDesktop platforms have come a long way in terms of usability and as we strive to make them better platforms for application developers, I think it’s time to shed one more shackle that slows that down: themes.

>Now, coming from me that view may be a surprise (because of all those themes that I call personal projects) but I do feel it’s necessary mainly because the level of visual customisation that is being done at the distribution level has led to widespread visual fragmentation which impacts both user- and developer-friendliness.

First your desktop icons. Then your themes. Then your life.

Will anything stop the tyranny of the footfags?

Attached: Gnome-logo.png (600x364, 10K)

Other urls found in this thread:

omgubuntu.co.uk/2018/08/elementary-os-hires-cassidy-james
elementary.io/docs/human-interface-guidelines#design-philosophy
youtu.be/r2CbbBLVaPk?t=3m31s
omgubuntu.co.uk/2018/07/yaru-ubuntu-theme
bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=565797
twitter.com/AnonBabble

GNOME received a 1 million donation from an anonymous donor and a $400 000 in the last hours. They are also the de-facto Linux DE and basically GTK won in the end over Qt.

So no, if you don't agree with their views just deal with it or use an inferior less supported graphical toolkit.

probably M$ trying to make sure linux never takes off

>we'll have to do X that will fuck up our existing user base, but trust us, the app developers (TM) will come
For how many years have they been doing this shit now? Where are all the app developers?

They can receive even more, although it's clear that money they've received isn't spent on hiring competent developers.

>(((developer's rights))) to (((brand identities)))
IT'S MY FUCKING COMPUTER YOU ABSTRUSE FOOT NIGGER

A FUCKING FOOT

>They are also the de-facto Linux DE and basically GTK won in the end over Qt
Yeah, nah.

>They are also the de-facto Linux DE and basically GTK won in the end over Qt.

>he says as more and more DEs are moving to Qt precisely as a result of bullshit like this

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You must be living in an alternative timeline.

In my timeline Canonical axed Unity 8 (which was made in Qt) and replaced it with GNOME.

>No themes
So, they kill the only thing that makes GTK better than Qt?
Will someone add Wayland support to GTK+2? GTK+3 was clearly a mistake.

Does Qt even have themes?

>what is Budgie
>what is LXQt
Also most applications worth shit use Qt.

I don't get why GNOME devs are obsessed with stripping features and making the system more basic and "simple to use" when the guys at elementary OS are already doing that and in a better way.

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Yes actually. KDE ships with over a dozen color schemes and multiple widget engines. It turns out these are separately tuneable in sane toolkits.

>Budgie
>qt

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Red Hat has been trying for years to push their footcheese DE on corporate end user customers, even after 3.0 totally ruined most of the HIG research that Sun put into GNOME 2 for Solaris.

>I would rather see GNOME evolve as a platform and become a little less developer-hostile by dropping support for third-party themes, than stagnate.
Surely the removal of third-party theme support and less options overall wouldn't stagnate a DE. How are these people even developers? This is a genuine argument for less options.
>If ending the wild west of visual customisation (which would probably end all of those projects of mine) on GNOME is necessary to grow the ecosystem, so be it.
If this is what's necessary to finally end Gnome and GTK, so be it.

Budgie 11. It's still in development.

>The biggest offenders continue to be downstream projects that theme GNOME extensively by overriding the default icons and stylesheet, and insist that that’s part of their own brand identity, but so long as that practice carries on then this fragmentation will continue.
STOP DOING THINGS WE DON'T LIKE

How are they actually going to stop this? You already have to install GNOME Tweak to change your theme.

They're going to hardcode CSS values at compile time and push everything into flatpaks so you can't use LD_PRELOAD.

Oh look, another GTK based DE received a huge amount of money from an anonymous donor, now the developer can work full time!

omgubuntu.co.uk/2018/08/elementary-os-hires-cassidy-james

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>Mystery donor
>Mystery donor

Someone is definitely trying to kill Linux on desktops.

I'm actually happy for that donation. Pantheon is one of my favorite DE. It being retardproof is an advantage when you deal with people who isn't good with computers.

That is hilarious.
At least I was never dumb enough to fall for the GNOME meme.

Redhat is the cancer that is killing Linux

Gee i wonder who

Attached: CEO-Satya-Nadella-Microsoft-Loves-Linux-462754-2.jpg (1023x764, 74K)

>Gnome will spends the money removing theming support
>Elementary will spend the money patching their Apple theme back into Gnome
The dontations cancel themselves out

Yes

I wonder if there's rich autists having a pissing contest behind the scenes.

My god they made so many mistakes with unity 8 like using their own display server and making it use js for most addons. Along with shoving an entire desktop on a weak ass phone.

If it werent for the retarded license Mir would be the standard display manager now

What's a gnome and why should I care?

I don't know why Jow Forums hates KDE so much, I've been using it and Qt for over a year on my workstation, even building some software I needed for myself, like a mind planner, and it's literally perfect

All we need to do is removing Gnome from anything else and everybody will be happy again.

Because KDE is clumsy, inconsistent and overcomplex.

>At least I was never dumb enough to fall for the GNOME meme.

Exactly

>They are also the de-facto Linux DE

lol

hahahaha

it wasn't a mistake, they just didn't push hard enough

It's not your computer anymore if you use Gnome.

>Canonical axed Unity 8

Who gives a shit?

Microsoft Windows doesn't have this problem

>Implying anyone actually uses vanilla Ubuntu.
I've never seen anyone actually use GNOME, it's always KDE or Xfce or something else. I've never seen GNOME beyond screenshots of a base Ubuntu install.

>t. faggot

Maybe you are just too stupid for KDE?

sheep

Gnome devs are doing it wrong, like Mozilla. There is a major difference between cutting out features and making it minimalist.

Also why are people talking about KDE and Qt as if they're the same?

This wouldn't be a problem if the default theme didn't look like dog shit

I've seen people defend Microsoft and tell me "it's different this time".

This is *exactly* how it happened 10+ years ago. It's uncanny actually.

Its the Gnome philosophy. They take legit human computer interaction research and take it to the fucking extreme, trying to enforce it by removing features.

Ex there was that legit research paper that showed people don't really work more efficiently with tons of windows/tabs open everywhere, it's more efficient to organize your work space and focus on one task at a time.

So instead of adding features to help organize your workspaces and focus on tasks (like KDE), Gnome REMOVED FUCKING MINIMIZE BUTTONS. Their solution to follow this line of research was to force people to work a certain way by removing features that allowed them to do something they believed was counter-productive.

>REMOVED FUCKING MINIMIZE BUTTONS

to this day, I legit don't miss it. just throw a window on top of the window. jesus fuck. and the maximize/minimize button could be better done with default superkey+up/down arrow.

anyone who's ever played an EA or Activision game has Qt installed, "winning" the linux desktop means literally nothing

also gnome 3 theme makers gave up years ago because upstream was hostile and would constantly break everything but adwaita without warning so this isn't surprising just another stripped feature

It is time to migrate to Qt or something as capable.

>does not understand what a DE has to deliver

>elementary.io/docs/human-interface-guidelines#design-philosophy
>youtu.be/r2CbbBLVaPk?t=3m31s
>So don't talk down to them, don't be overly simplistic in what you do and if they're a power used let them be a power user

The elementary guys should just take GTK over. They seem to at least some idea of what they're doing.

Theming is not going away from GTK. (GTK please, we're low-key trying to make the plus disapear.) I wrote that code, I maintain it, and it's definitely not in my interest to make it hard to use for anyone.

I just wish Gnome 3 used less resources and was more responsive, and faster. I don't understand why the devs haven't optimized it for performance.

This so fucking much.
Gnome is literally the most ergonomic graphical environment/interface in a world where a traditional mouse+traditional keyboard is the king of human-computer interfaces.

Unending amounts workspaces was a great idea.
Most UI functionality accessible from Super key was a great idea - your left hand ends up staying there naturally when you're not typing and very little software utilizes Super for functionality, so it doesn't break functionality.

Minimizing windows doesn't make any fucking sense whatsoever. It's a waste of time, and waste of mouse movement. If you're running out of space - make another workspace.

on the bright side, no features, no bugs.

Pretty much the only valid complaint about Gnome. If it ran on 3rd world hardware id would've been goat.

Why is gnome limiting my freedom in such a way?

Yeah, that's why I still use Xfce. If Gnome ran as well and smoothly as Xfce, I'd use it in a heartbeat.

>If ending the wild west of visual customisation (which would probably end all of those projects of mine) on GNOME is necessary to grow the ecosystem, so be it.
I'm not understanding how GNOME plans to grow, considering 90% of personal computer usage has always been visual customization of the same old basic activities.

Gnome committing suicide is a good thing

lol, too bad traditional mouse+traditional keyboard is the king of ergonomic computer interface

He's not gtk / gnome developer.
He's an owner of some famous gtk theme and icons

Qt is used everywhere these days whereas GTK is pretty much only used by GNOME.
Geee.. I wonder why.

Well to be honest mir was more ready than wayland ever was.
I prefer to to use snap packs instead of flatpaks(of course normal packages are always best).
What license did they use?

>I would rather see GNOME evolve as a platform and become a little less developer-hostile by dropping support for third-party themes, than stagnate. Doing so would also bring us in line with the how the major (successful) platforms maintain a consistent look and feel and consider app developers’ control over their apps and their rights to their brand identities.
( Major successful platforms ) do they think this is going to help them compete with microsoft or apple?

Use KDE, LXQT. Don't fell for GTK meme.

It actually has.
I don't think ricing windows is as easy as was riding GNOME.

I dont understand the complaint here. What themes change the way applications look or function beyond a superficial level? If anything extensions are the only thing that come close and they only really change the DE not the applications.

but that's wrong you fucking retard

>Will anything stop the tyranny of the footfags?
>Will anything stop the tranny footfags?

Question /a/ has been asking for years.

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This seems like a bizarre swipe at ubuntu who just confirmed their new theme for 18.10 called "Yaru" omgubuntu.co.uk/2018/07/yaru-ubuntu-theme . Have these guys been huffing steve jobs ashes? Ubuntu should be looked at as a boon to gnome, for money, resources, development help, but leave it to gnome developers to find something to be bitter about.

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Pantheon ≠ GNOME. Both were made with GTK+, but they're their own things, just like Cinnamon, MATE and XFCE.

Could we see another fork of gnome if something like this happens? Maybe ubuntu decides to? How asshurt would the benevolent developers at gnome be then?

MATEQt when?

>even after 3.0 totally ruined most of the HIG research that Sun put into GNOME 2 for Solaris.
This is one of the most perplexing things. Red Hat wastes a lot of effort trying to pressure every little app and widget to conform to "the GNOME 3 vision", but that vision is based on nothing — especially not on established research, field testing with actual users, or any form of feedback. It's barely even internally consistent.

But when other distros apply their own customizations to make GNOME closer to something users actually want, *that's* somehow a bad thing.

>GNOME dev on removing
haha soon they'll remove GNOME itself

One can only hope.

meanwhile
bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=565797

>GNOME received a 1 million donation
well there's 1 million wasted

if other distros/developers keep breaking with your vision maybe its you and not them.

If they even fucking try I'll throw Gnome hard in the garbage.

The fact that this post is even created is a giant middle finger. Visual fragmentation my ass, themes are what drives people to Linux to begin with.

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It had an inclusion that every piece of code that was written for it was owned by Canonical and that they could do with it what they wanted (make it proprietary). So in essence contributors were working for free

>Gnome REMOVED FUCKING MINIMIZE BUTTONS
that's not one of gnome's issues, it's really useless since it's really a lot easier/better to just press super for the overview which is great
gnome's issue is under the hood bugs and moves like this one

Wouldn't be better if we convinced other people to use any of the other DE instead of GNOME?
Pantheon for those who want a stupidly easy to use interface.
Cinnamon for those who want a traditional UI with some customization options.
MATE and XFCE for those who want to customize every bit of their desktop.
Hell, even MATE has a tool called MATE tweaks that can make the DE look like another DE (Unity included) with one click.
And this without counting QT-based DE like KDE or LXQT and Window Managers.

>really problematic when applications have custom CSS.
I wonder who's behind this post.

>Well to be honest mir was more ready than wayland ever was.
bullshit mir is just a canonical for of wayland just like unity was a fork of gnome and it's pointless because ubuntu was isn't and never will be relevant everywhere like that white nigger deluded himself

Googled the post's URL. Found this from a GNOME dev on leddit.

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Mir is not a fork of wayland and unity is not a fork of gnome.

suuuuuuuure they're not

Don't feed the troll. It's quite clear he knows shit on what he's talking about

funny, I vaguely remember reading recently reassurances that GTK4 won't break theming like GTK3 did ... this is their solution
>no themes
>no problem
>t. stalin

IIRC Mir came before Wayland did. How can it be a fork of something not yet created to begin with

His bullet points are so fucking stupid. The only ones that actually think they should decide what theme is used are the user and Gnome developers. Everyone else is just offering themes.

>Mir came
lets not exaggerate