any reasons why not to use PHP in 2018 ?
- package manager - composer
- great set of frameworks - symfony, zend, laravel ...
- high quality packages such as the league component or symfony component
- good code following the FIG PSRs
- ability to do async programming and create servers than can outperform nodejs and even golang default http server - thanks to projects such as Swoole or ReactPHP
- huge market share
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There aren't many, but here goes:
* It's hard to get buy in from managers in large corps because they only know PHP of the 90's and 00's
* Hiring developers can be tricky as the talent pool is full of wordpress and laravel pajeets who will fuck up your codebase in five minutes
* Unlikely you'll need it, but PHP has no stable desktop GUI offerings
Other than that, it's pretty good.
If I was forced into the hell of web development I would pick PHP over Javascript but I think I would prefer Python over both if it wasn't so fucking slow. But what I have recently learned about is elixir. If you forego the framework meme and just actually sit down to write things yourself then it seems like it might do a very good job. I wonder how it would perform compared to PHP.
well, those are true
why do you think that php is bad ?
also tests have shown that the only framework was capable of outperforming php swoole is Netty
i'll try to search for the benchmarks to post here
in this JSON serialization benchmark, only Java and Scala gave better performance than php swoole :
techempower.com
Elixir comes at 115, outperformed by pure php ( both 7 and 5 ) , amp php, php compiled with peach-pie and kumbiaPHP
>why do you think that php is bad ?
I dislike how it mixes HTML and code by default.
I also don't remember it ever having much structure.
It's also C++ levels of complexity at this point.
Not Elixir but Phoenix and not 115 but 155.
And looking at this, things implemented in C get outperformed by things implemented in Java. I have a feeling these tests are full of bloat.
The question I have is what barebones programs designed to implement this benchmark would perform like in each language, not how each framework performs.
In a realistic situation, when things became a big bottleneck you wouldn't just sit there considering a framework change, you would look at hot paths and optimise, given enough need the end result might end up being a stand-alone stripped down bare-bones module.
Heck, if necessary you might end up writing C.
>I dislike how it mixes HTML and code by default.
"by default" there's no code, you write the code and organize it they way you want to, but if you follow php standards there's no mixing between html and php, the view and logic business are separated in modern php.
>I also don't remember it ever having much structure.
well, it does
>It's also C++ levels of complexity at this point.
how is that ?
> have a feeling these tests are full of bloat.
the tests are upon github, you can download them all and test for yourself, maybe post the result back on Jow Forums
>In a realistic situation ....
the tests use a realistic approach, not just a 'hello, world' example, as i said, you can see the code on github.
This is going to sound like a shit reason, but I hate Mark Zuckerberg, and durring my time of programming that faggot was the face of PHP. Its a great language though.
well i guess you don't have to hate it anymore, they switched to HackLang
>how is that ?
Doesn't it now attempt to support every programming paradigm under the sun?
>the tests use a realistic approach, not just a 'hello, world' example, as i said, you can see the code on github.
Yes, and I explained why it's not really realistic.
>Doesn't it now attempt to support every programming paradigm under the sun?
no its doesn't. most features being added to php are suggested by users, and php internals vote weather they should be added or not. ( wiki.php.net
php developers are trying to make php a better language, and that now considered bad ?
>doesn't change anything
changes something
Yes, and I explained why it's not really realistic.
no you didn't
- shit syntax
i'd rather use haskell
>no its doesn't. most features being added to php are suggested by users, and php internals vote weather they should be added or not. ( wiki.php.net
Voted for by users?
That sounds even worse than C++.
>php developers are trying to make php a better language, and that now considered bad ?
Yes, programmers are retards, most programming languages are made more garbage when more people are involved.
>now, they are just trying to copy other languages
I didn't say that, I was saying that PHP is getting bloated, which you confirmed.
>no you didn't
I mean, if you had read what I wrote then maybe you would have noticed that I did in fact explain why these tests were not realistic.
Let me explain again, the premise of picking a "framework" based on a niche benchmark of JSON throughput is like picking a wife based on how quickly she can do the dishes. If you need to do your dishes faster then you can always get a dishwasher or hire someone to do them. You don't need to change "framework".
But more importantly, locking yourself into a framework is already a retarded step, you shouldn't. If you don't understand the components that make up your framework and can't just pick and choose the ones you need and re-create the parts you need then you're too stupid for programming in the first place.
If you don't understand that the solution to a bottleneck is not a change of framework but simply ACTUALLY DOING THE WORK TO OPTIMISE then you're lost.
If you want to compare anything you need to compare language implementations doing the bare bones stripped down test. This will give you a realistic idea of the best case scenario you can get out of each language if you absolutely needed it. And using a different language for a small performance sensitive part of your project is a different deal to switching your entire project to a different framework just because you have a bottleneck somewhere.
And as an afterthought:
The final nail in the coffin for me in terms of PHP is that I assume everything you termed "modern PHP" is like all "modern" shit heavily OOP focused.
As anyone who has objectively looked at the benefits of OOP and has actually experienced and looked into other "ideologies" (paradigms) of programming can tell you, OOP is not the best solution for 99% of problems. And I say 99% and not 100% not because I know what this 1% is but because I am giving the OOP idiots some benefit of doubt that maybe they can dig up some area of programming where an OOP solution can't be re-imagined in a different way and implemented more simply and cleanly in another paradigm.
And as far as I can tell, everything outside of imperative programming in PHP was a bolt on anyway, so I doubt trying to do anything in that language would be as straightforward as it is in others.
Try out Laravel, it's surprisingly nice to work with
>Voted for by users?
no i said internal, php core devs.
>Yes, programmers are retards, most programming languages are made more garbage when more people are involved.
the ones voting are internals.
>I didn't say that, I was saying that PHP is getting bloated, which you confirmed.
no, php is not getting bloated, actually php is getting better performance with each new release
php 5 -> php 7
php 7 -> php 7.2
and php 8 is coming 2019 ( externals.io
>I did in fact explain why these tests were not realistic.
so if a programming language didn't even complete the tests, and another managed to handle 150K requests/s, that means we can't really judge which one is better at performance ?
>like picking a wife based on how quickly she can do the dishes.
that how i pick my gf ! what is wrong with that ?
if a framework can't do json serialization , database querying, data updates in time, how do except it to handle a real world application where you basically do all of these things ?
>, locking yourself into a framework is already a retarded step, you shouldn't.
i never do that, in fact, i made my own framework just so i can learn about the core components of other frameworks and i created few projects with it, didn't mention it here cause no one have access to it to see the code.
>If you want to compare anything you need to compare language implementations doing the bare bones stripped down test.
the test compares languages too
>switching your entire project to a different framework just because you have a bottleneck somewhere.
i never done that ?
> assume everything you termed "modern PHP" is like all "modern" shit heavily OOP focused.
no ! NO ! modern php or good code doesn't mean OO
here's a good example of modern php with functional programming : github.com
>so I doubt trying to do anything in that language would be as straightforward as it is in others.
how does that make php bad ?
i dislike laravel, its nice on front, but have you look to the core ?
why does the http server request have to be aware of the route ? $request->route()
why does the http server request have to be aware of the user ? $request->user()
why is there no getters and setters but instead $request->setUserResolver($resolver); // "settter"
$request->user(); // "getter"
why does it have to extend the symfony request and mess it up ? why did they need to create their own session when the symfony HTTP foundation comes with a session implementation that its way much better ? why did the need to extend the symfony kernel ? what is the deal with their console application implementation where you can the main application that gives you a console kernel , you call it, the kernel create a console application , and insert the laravel container inside each command , while they could have just done :
$console = new \Symfony\Component\Console\Application('laravel','5.6');
laravel is best biggest mess i have ever seen.
i forgot to mention that the application IS the container in laravel ! which is just fucking stupid
php is shit, old tech is old
only noobs and retards still use it
how the hell is php old ?
php is still getting updates every day.
major frameworks are everywhere
have all the fancy tools as other programming languages , what do you think is missing in php ? when was the last time you took a look at the php community ? 2005 ?
php is shit dude, nodejs, golang, ruby are years of light forward, just as example
>how does that make php bad ?
???
Does this warrant a response?
If solving problems in PHP is more difficult than in other languages, isn't that a possible reason to not use PHP?
>nodejs, golang, ruby are years of light forward
can you explain where is nodejs, golang or ruby ahead of php ? if you are talking performance look at again
>would be as straightforward
that's what you said earlier, you didn't say when a task is more difficult in php, for me, when a task is actually difficult to do in php and its possible and ofc easier in golang, i do it using go and execute the process from php
>Swoole
>Rewriting the entire stack
why the fuck people do that
>that's what you said earlier, you didn't say when a task is more difficult in php, for me, when a task is actually difficult to do in php and its possible and ofc easier in golang, i do it using go and execute the process from php
That might be a good reason to use PHP if you are already a PHP programmer but does not warrant learning and using PHP when you're not a PHP programmer.
* It's hard to get buy in from managers in large corps because they only know PHP of the 90's and 00's
>agree
* Hiring developers can be tricky as the talent pool is full of wordpress and laravel pajeets who will fuck up your codebase in five minutes
>yup, agree
* Unlikely you'll need it, but PHP has no stable desktop GUI offerings
>what?
what the hell are you talking about ?
well i'm asking what is exactly stopping people from using php over NodeJS or other languages / frameworks
i agree on the last one too, PHP doesn't have a stable desktop GUI library, they are all broken somehow
>php over NodeJS
Brain damage.
>other languages / frameworks
A lack of openness to experience and some attraction to complexity.
I talking about rewriting apache in php
what do you mean by
>stable desktop GUI library
Yes, PHP is amazing, but today PHP market is full self taught, making really low money over Java/C# developer.
you think swoole is just a web server ?
you think swoole is written in php ?
a library that works , with no bugs on windows and linux
no i get it, it's an event based stack to code """serverless""" apps like you'd do in the front-end, which is very homosex
WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY GUI LIB
>no i get it, it's an event based stack to code """serverless""" apps like you'd do in the front-end
Swoole is an event-driven asynchronous & concurrent networking communication framework with high performance written only in C for PHP. ( github.com
Graphical user interface.
PHP-GTK is not being updated anymore.
PHP-GUI doesn't work properly on windows.
i find it funny how you compare Swoole to Apache when the Swoole HTTP server can get to x20 times better performance
Based & Redpilled
No I know what GUI means but why the fuck would you want to do front end in php????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
>it's 20x faster we need it for our 20 user base and our 1 page app
>you need to rewrite everything goy
>stable and proven? no we need new and exotic
>let's do front end with a back end language
you are everything that's wrong lately, KYS
i don't, i just agreed that there's no GUI library for PHP and i don't wanna do it.
>20 user base and our 1 page app
i don't use it for such projects
>we need to rewrite everything
i didn't write anything, and stop saying "rewrite" faggot, swoole is not a web server
>stable and proven ?
yes, almost all major Chinese companies that use PHP are using swoole now since the developer are from china
>let's do front-end with back-end language
where the hell did i say that ?
do you even know what "event-driven asynchronous & concurrent networking communication" means ?
>filthy lying chink detected
>OMG fuck Node.JS
>Let's redo Node.JS in PHP
KYS chink
>improves php
>wtf why are they improving PHP, it must die!
ps : swoole is better than NodeJS, and Swoole wasn't trying to copy NodeJS in the first place, but instead GoLang, which is something i use myself.
you are someone how just hates PHP cause he was told its bad, given no technical reasons why it is a bad language, how thinks PHP Swoole is a web server written in PHP and doesn't know shit about event-driven asynchronous and concurrent networking communication
Learn to quote
>He doesn't quote like the rest of us
>He must write like us to be one of us
KYS chink
I use PHP everyday and love it.
Please enlighten me about what you are building that needs to have Swoole. You have 10 sec.
any web application that queries the database multiple times on every request ( done using coroutine )
APIs, where performance matters.
can you tell me please why people use NodeJS ?
holly shit mang I was sure you were gonna answer that. Basically none of what you said requires anything else than a standard PHP.
>queries the database multiple times on every request
Learn to code faggot, you won't need to deploy more tech to build performant applications. Fucking disgrace, typical fucking chink.
YOU GUYS ARE JUST HACKS.
ppl use Node.JS because they fell for the Javascript in the backend meme and they don't know any backend language and they need a backend for their shitty 1 page app
>let's fix our architecture faults with a programming language
>let's fix our wrong database choice with a programming language
>let's fix our bad data structure with a programming language
this, language choice is purely for career advancement only plebs bikeshed minute technical details
quality engineering is orthogonal to tech stack and inversely correlated with bootcamp devs, pajeets and diversity hires
you remind me of some """IT manager"""" I worked with would couldn't code shit so he opted for WORDPRESS and had to scale like a bitch to get decent performance for a fucking 3 pages website. Fucking hell man, I can't stand the IT world anymore.
I'm a 90s/00s boomer that uses PHP. My question is, what better technology is out there there that I can replace PHP with? What are the young'ins using nowadays?
>vs Node.JS
you were benchmarking against a piece of trash.
>tfw use js+html+css for the frontend and php to pull data from the backend and provide ways to pull updated data over time
>no fancy frameworks
it just werks
>inb4 basedscript
Node.js
>php to pull data from the backend and provide ways to pull updated data over time
This can be done with regular old JavaScript though.
>what is ajax
KYS
I prefer fetch as it is more performant.
this
but """IT Manager""" have to justify their paycheck and they do it by mumbling tech buzzwords to higher management
They are a major part of the problem
STFU it's not s
*supported by all browsers
you don't know what you're talking about just like 99% of devs
It's a simple transpile or even polyfill if you wanted to since it's just a high level XHR.
>talk about building simple stuff that works
>use some non supported tech that requires poly fills
JUST STFU NIGGER
>still wanting to support IE9
I ask every visitor on my websites to install a decent browser or kindly fuck off, and if you don't, you're the kind of people who's holding the web back and should be shot on sight.
I'd unironically punch you in the face immediately if I ever met one of you subhumans IRL.
>developer.mozilla.org
check again nigger
>I'd unironically punch you in the face immediately if I ever met one of you subhumans IRL.
i'd love to fight you, where you located, chink? We can make it happen if you're not a keyb warrior.
Seems like a misleading benchmark.
>say something nice
well, at least it has immutable classes
> PHP has no stable desktop GUI offerings
Um sweetie, just use Electron and IPC messaging
>composer
Yeah right.
$ pip install foo
$ npm install foo
Composer? Lol
so you are saying there's no reason to boost the proformance 100times without losing anything ?
wtf does this have to do with anything ?
install both express.js and expressive with swoole and do the test by yourself
>php has no stable desktop gui
i was a sleep
can you give me a good reason for using NodeJS instead of PHP ?
>can you give me a good reason for using NodeJS instead of PHP ?
NodeJS means a webdev can become full-stack using only one programming language.
>can you give me a good reason for using NodeJS instead of PHP ?
i said instead of PHP, i'm talking back-end