Every single government wants people to not use anti-surveillance tools

It's not even "safety", but just entertainment. The truly twisted part of this is that they have managed to meld making money with manipulating people's dopamine receptors so helping the botnet "feels good."

> comes out of the glowing box that sits in the living room.
FTFY: glowing box in hands, living room, tablet.
I'm this user:. I don't thing open source or closed source or anything computer related will help. I think that teaching people to respect others privacy and their OWN privacy would be a start.
Going to sound sexist here, but prying social media from the hands of women will be like removing cancer from someone who doesn't change the circumstances that gave them cancer.
It's less about nothing to hide as much as it is about respecting your own privacy. Popularity and likes shouldn't be the guiding light in your life but the morals and principles you don't compromise even if it goes against the social norm.

The only way to start changing the digital front is by influencing the people that you have around you in real life. It takes small suggestions, little seeds to resist the technological overlords. Then when there is enough to uproot their lives from the technocracy, harvest them. Teach them they don't need that kind of judgment or acceptance because it's a false dichotomy they idolize. No matter how entrenched someone is, it just takes a little water to erode the foundation and break the castle individuals call their social empire.

The powers involved with farming the data will have to be handled at a later date. But they will do what they can to keep their booger hooks upon the masses.

There are groups and organizations pushing against privacy, I am sure of it, but I wouldn't say they are as organized as they seem to be - I think that the various groups and their agendas overlap somewhat, and there is conflict between them as well. I believe that we shouldn't focus on /them/ or (((them))) or whatever, as it turns this too much into a conspiracy theory and thus it is less likely to be believed. I think that the data leaks that have transpired throughout the years and the misuse of data itself is what should be the spearhead of this debacle when presented to the masses, at least for now. It is incredibly difficult to paint people like Zuckerberg as "evil", and even harder to get them to be viewed as criminals - they are heroes in the eyes of many, people want to be like them, making some shitty startup that will rise to the top and be worth billions, etc. I also stand by the others when they claim that the people don't care about privacy, I can confirm this myself. Observe, for example, how easy it is today to find people who are against nuclear energy and how similar the argument can be: that hoarding people's data is dangerous, with leaks happening all the time, how easy it is to dox and so on. The downside to this is that one is presenting arguments for an even harsher hardware, software and internet lockdown, so I suppose this needs some work.

Don't get me wrong, the immoral and even illegal practices of these companies should be punished very harshly, and restrictions put in place to prevent similar occurrences. But as these things integrate into society more and more every day, I just don't see that happening any time soon, if ever. These services are convenient, have become necessary in some workplaces and some are even designed to keep you coming back again. It's more realistic to hope that society understands the negatives and harms themselves and abandons social media and the like, finding necessity for an anonymous web.

I agree with minimizing the tin foil hat tiered conversations. I agree using data breaches as a starting point for prying people away from those services.

I think trying to saying the services they provide is something necessary is a bad idea in general. I would argue that most aren't aware there are alternatives available currently. Although, it's possible current alternatives may be less convenient.

Speaking of convince. I wonder if that is the majority of the challenge of prying the public from the status quo. Even I find myself using certain software I know compromises my privacy out of convenience. Even if it takes me 2 minutes to find a better option. I think we have exchanged our ethics for ease. Including myself. I have forgotten that a computer system is a tool, and it only provides as much leverage as I configure it to.

>Q: WE HEAR YOU’RE NOT THAT KEEN ON TECHNOLOGY...
>A: I don’t have an internet connection, or a mobile phone, or a TV signal. I can play [digital] music on the television, or on the computer I suppose, but I don’t. I am pretty much cut off from the 21st century. It’s like culturally I’m trying to establish a kind of sensory deprivation tank for myself, whereby I am receiving no modern signals whatsoever, because I’ve heard that after a while in a sensory deprivation tank you start to hallucinate and have all sorts of strange experiences, so I’m waiting for that to happen.

>Q: HOW DO YOU MANAGE WITHOUT THE INTERNET?
>A: It seems to work. I am pretty much cut off from the majority of the 21st century, but not much escapes me. You hear about everything, because you’re talking to people, you’re absorbing a lot of this information as if by osmosis, just through the pores of your skin. I have said that by embracing the internet in the way that it has done, which was kind of inevitable, society has embarked on a massive experiment without having any idea of the various ways in which those technologies will impact upon us socially, politically and psychologically. So I so think if there’s this huge experiment going on, it’s best that I remain outside the petri dish, as a kind of control, so that we’ll be able to see how badly the rest of you have mutated, by comparing you with me as a kind of baseline.

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Well it could be that we have all been sitting in the cesspool so long we don't know how to be clean.

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No you just don't do anything worthwhile.

After distro hopping for years and settling I gave up. I just got a ThinkPad and used Win10 Pro. I use office. I use one drive. Etc. I virtualize Linux all the time. I just don't run it in my work or personal machines because I don't like wasting time. I can't anymore. I can't spend a weekend troubleshooting the netinstall of Debian and looking for alternatives of software I already use efficiently. I have research to do, reports and papers to write, pentests to run and so on. I don't like the microshaft sells my data. I do it begrudgingly because switching to full time Linux because of philosophical reasons would hamper my productivity, and my work flow. I see my work as more important. I see hanging out with my family more important than fucking around with Arch.

You all keep placing these unnecessary burdens upon yourself to feel better than everyone else. People already jerk themselves off because they use Vim or Ed or Pico to edit fucking text files rather than something with a GUI and will always claim its efficiency or some other shit but never utilize it.

Time waits for no one. And yet you just keep pissing it away.

Alan Moore thinks he is a baseline human and not some strange mutant?

I would say it is more about stuff becoming the norm, and the difficulty of departing from that norm. Even if you understand that you're doing harm, everyone around you expects you to do these things through peer pressure, or maybe you even need it for your job. When you use that program for the 10th time, you'll feel less horrible about it, and eventually you will forget. Even when it is isolated from society, the knowledge that 'you can' makes it very tempting.

There are many destructive things in the world we live in, and most pay no heed to them. Privacy is just one of those things; it may be one of the most pressing in my opinion, but realizing that we're ignoring others is heartbreaking itself. I find that we care too little for our future, because a lot of people don't even have time for the present and at this rate, falling deeper and deeper is the most probable outcome. Overcoming this madness will take great sacrifice, something that most aren't willing to do.

Was a nothing to hide guy until i saw youtube recomendations of shit have saw a million times already, then understood google is limiting my internet access by making a bubble of recomendations i cant escape from. I want to lurk the internet, not get lurked and get shit as consolation.

Fuck these assholes i just want to browse online in peace.

Uhmmmm sweetie, who cares if the government is watching you? They only care about catching pedophiles and terrorists online. If you are neither, then you are safe. Also, who cares if private companies keep data on you? They just use it to improve their products and give you specialized ads. It helps make better digital products.

It is sad that it seems no one has the presence of mind to live in the present. I explained to a friend of mine that I don't do social media because I want people to live experiences with me, not vicariously through a digital format. Then I want to tell the story of that experience because I enjoy telling the experiences I've had throughout my life. That in and of itself is an experience as well. Think about it (if you're old enough to remember a life without social media) your parents and grandparents and even aunts and uncles told you stories and shared pictures and enjoyed going over events in their lives with someone there physically observing them. You can see the emotion, the excitement, and sometimes bad experiences written out on their face as they convey their story.
The digital formats take away those minuscule details that really bring a story to life. A timeline in social media is a cold steel rail to the experiences that is the rollercoaster of life.
I have no doubt that some would disagree, but I have passion and fire when I tell stories in my life and there isn't a technological marvel that can come close to retell my experiences. Even if they seem larger than life.

Yeah, I can see people don't live in the present. I have even overheard people talking about how being somewhere with certain people may hurt their online persona. Seriously, how being somewhere in real life hurts their online presence. I have only heard it once. Yet, people take their online lives more seriously than how their fellow human being next to them is being ostracized because they may make an impact on their social media.
Seriously I take interactions with my fellow people with humble care. Not because they might put it on social media, but because I have their attention FROM the data farm sucking their soul. Strange as it sounds, cherish the moments someone gives you before they return to the oblivion that is social media. That has become their status symbol.

Take your pills gramps, that has nothing to do with companies and the government stealing your data.

You havent experienced what is to share every single retarded shit you do daily for years with someone you cant talk personally because the distance.

>it is more about stuff becoming the norm,
This is why I never pay much attention to people who say things like "the old web is still out there, you just need to look for it." It totally misses the point, in that the culture that exists outside of cyberspace contributed to the way things were then, and the culture outside affects things the same way (though the outcomes are different) now.

Reminds me of people's shock when I tell them I basically don't keep archives or backups. I mean, I have about five photos that I do save and back up, but that's it. I wonder how many of those thousands of videos and photographs people record they ever look at again.

It's a quality vs quantity thing, combined with us having only so many fucks to give.

>whoa, modern technology is so amazing! Now I can tell the world about my breakfast.

Welcome to the new web. The systems want to cater to your beliefs not go against them.
Not unlike the people you surround yourself with. We make our own tribes of people who we share common beliefs with because it is comfortable. Comfortably numb.
If you don't escape your comfort zone offline and online, you're limiting yourself to what you want to hear or like to hear. The exact same thing happens when people listen to the talk radio they want to listen to. It fortifies the things they already want to believe in. Search engines have been developed to do the same thing. The internet has be come an echo chamber of your search history.

>who wins
>dozens of governments trying to forbid encryption
>two banks that require encryption for transactions

Just be communist user.
You won't regret it.

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I get the idea of what you mean. But I don't share every detail of my life. I do share the highs and lows. And guess what? I don't want to share everything with everyone. Sometimes I even choose to have this thing, its something you kiddos may never know about. It's called a "secret" its something that does not get shared. Not in whispers, not in messages not even outside my mind. Sometimes us older people even have them between us. It exists solely between myself and another individual.

Sometimes our ability to forget things can really impact quality of life. I have had 13 or 14 brain injuries, so I have been told. And my mind is like a colander so I keep a journal, some of it I'm proud of some I don't open because I know that there are demons that lurk in there. But definitely quality over quantity.

I see where you're coming from, and I find that I agree with most of what you said. The few friends I currently keep in contact with don't use social media however, so I find it hard to relate to the attention stealing part.

What I meant with the present/future thing was that in today's society, one is hard-pressed to find people willing to sacrifice these things we're currently arguing against. I believe we have grown weak in spirit and as a result, humanity will find it harder and harder to overcome these ills. Living in today's first world is rather comfortable when observed from a distance, but taking a closer look means seeing all the media, the brainwashing, seeing how perfect everyone looks when viewed through social media only, the rat race, etc. People are able to see death and disaster every day on TV or the internet, and the weak spirited individuals will easily succumb to this lust for even more security that we can see today. It's about bargaining - the work for the future isn't "for a better tomorrow" anymore, these people simply want for 'tomorrow to be uneventful and not worse than today'. And on top of those, people are complacent, are easily divided and god knows what else. And we're trying to get these same people to stop using things that are addictive, sometimes required, widespread and well integrated into society and convenient. And this is just one of the world's problems.

I don't fight people for their attention. As much as I want to, the masses don't understand, and being somewhat more aware I have to treat and show them with what they are willing to give. As much as it saddens me that I can't have that undivided attention. I look at it similar to a handicap. And do what I can to work with it, and they seem more willing if I show that little bit of patience.

I used to live in a world where everyday myself and others lived and died by the gun. I can see the lack of sacrifices in the modern era. I think there's a couple of songs that work really well to describe today's world. Comfortably Numb, by pink floyd and Vicarious by tool.

Most people I know (myself included if I'm being honest with myself) aren't willing to sacrifice convenience or comfort for most reasons.

I also wonder if the modern world is so fixated on labels and division from those labels that without them they don't have an identity. Or they have such little real problems that they have to make them up to feel as though they grow or achieve something. I see it often in gaming *achievement unlocked.*

I don't think we are the first to say these things (The Cave) but I wonder how few people are actually looking for ways out of the cave. It is comfortable, and ignorance is bliss. I wonder if I truly want to be without that comfort, but at the same time I'm not afraid of being out if my comfort zone, as terrifying as the idea is.

Although it's sad only 16 posters in this thread.

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>being this delusional

>if it wasn't a great form of entertainment
This. My mum admins a site on facebook. I once told her she could run her own website and actually be more free of the botnet, but the thing connecting them all is a facebook account.

Facebook will die one day, but only once a more popular competitor takes its place. Decentralized social networks may be the option, but we need to push this shit as hard as we can.

Isn't the botnet just a man-in-the-middle attack?

Without social networks:
>see funny thing
>tell my family and friends
>"Ha, nice one, user!"
>feel nice
With social networks
>see funny thing
>open facebook/twitter/other
>tell them, revealing tons of data about my browsing habits in the process
>"Ha, nice one, user!" from a friend who is thousands of miles away
>feel nice

If we can bring this dopamine-based stuff on a more secure level, it might be the answer. BUT IT NEEDS TO BE:
a) transparent (so no difficult setup)
II) decentralized (so you have more options without being tied to one company)
3) private (E2EE if possible, maybe over XMPP)
d) NO FUCKING BLOCKCHAIN, IT'S NOT NEEDED

>not having a comeback
I presume user plays devil's advocate, but we need a good comeback to all his points.

Please don't crucify me for asking this. This seems like the right thread for it though. Why, exactly, is being a part of the botnet so bad?? Apart from the overwhelming targetted advertising, it seems the only other problem is a potentisl breach of data security.

But is it really that big of a deal that it will have a big consequence on your life? What's the worst that could happen in exchange for possibly added convenience?

>a. No. They just spend money marketing their own products and people think they are better as they know about them. Also they dedicate budget to aesthetics, which generally FOSS does not.

I found this PDF on Jow Forums a while back: web.archive.org/web/20180127173904if_/http://tehlug.org:80/files/solove.pdf

Your identity might get misused. It's a privacy tradeoff. You get
>better targeted ads
>ability to use someone else's storage
with the risk of
>the company losing/selling your private data
>doxxing you at their discretion

Look up "turn-key totalitarian state" or something like that. Even if google/facebook did everything right until now, who says they won't publish your deepest, darkest secrets tomorrow?

I don't have critical secrets today, I might have tomorrow, and if I don't know where I'm being tracked and where not, I have to assume I'm watched all the time. It's the modern panopticon (the prison scheme). If you assume you're being watched and judged 24/7, you will behave yourself differently, you will police yourself. That is good for a controlled population, but bad for dissent, i.e. constructive criticism.

I know this will sound cringy, but in an ideal world, you should be able to say the truth without the fear of repercussions.

why waste monies convincing people of what they already know from personal experience?
seriously the best way to get people to not use open source is to let them try it

youtube.com/watch?v=eViswN602_k
Do any of you expect this happening in western nations?

you must not have heard about alibaba and Chinas social credit construct.

youtube.com/watch?v=eViswN602_k

youtube.com/watch?v=FqbT7pFWS_I

youtube.com/watch?v=HqqZEf4LJuw

Why do you think no one is fighting it in America? They want it here just as bad.

/fucko/ general

It more than likely already is without your knowledge. The problem with FOSS is lack of funds keeping it from being a reliable product people would be willing to trust. Once those FOSS companies/programs start making money, they will usually end up going down the same road as FB and Google.

Continuing from
If I want to share something, I'll share it. A botnet can change owners, my data should be MINE ONLY. The price of convenience is negligible in exchange to the financial/personal risk I take if I join some botnet.

Imagine this: I enjoy pissing and shitting on people. Consensually, but pissing and shitting on people. I live in a state where this is legal and accepted. Let's say I share these things in a botnet-like scenario, although private (send the pics to the other people).
Let us now assume a coup happens/radicals are voted into power and declare shitting and pissing on people illegal, immoral and reprehensible. Okay, I stop doing it (as much pain as it is) and behave myself.

One day, the govermnent agencies secure a warrant for all social network data (which was insecure and not private in the E2EE sense) and they find my fetish. Suddenly, my kids cannot get a good job, I'm branded a disgusting pervert by the public. I'm absolutely (financially and morally) fucked.

Do I want to send data out to places where I don't know how it's taken care of/who it's being sold to? I'd much rather lose ALL my contacts every time I update LineageOS and be seen as a data retard by all around me than risking a botnet misusing this data to build a scarily precise profile.

So your response is essentially that I should take personal responsibility by not taking risks by placing my security in other people's hands.

All my friends think I'm weird because I prefer to have all my local physical media rather than rely solely on streams (see various streaming sites taking stuff away for varying reasons). I also don't trust cloud services because I can't control my data. How it's stored, backup measures, etc.

It's not even about having anything to hide. It's about know my data is mine. Not shared with a million companies seeking to make a profit.

Basically, that's a nice TL;DR of it. If I lose my data, I have myself to blame. A third party company is under no obligation to handle my data with care, since it mostly doesn't disappear. If someone steals my money, it's either mine or the bank's fault. If Lingea stores passwords in plain text, what can I do?

Personal data = personal responsibility. Or at least it should.

So my data needs to be secure because those who have it have a considerable likelihood to do things that badly affect me with it and this is so important that the security of my data should be taken into my hands alone. That's what I'm getting from your resoonse.
I'm just trying to pinpoint a response to the
>so what if nothing I do is private
argument thanks.

Bruh, I feel you. I can blame it on shitty connection
>5Mbps
>torrent all movies overnight
>watch them the next evening, ad-free
>repeat for a few years, backing everything up to a 2TB drive
>cannot stream 1080p online, have to download it
>makes it more convenient
>download YT videos
>years pass
>get 30Mbps
>old habits die hard
>still download and store everything since the Internet was never a constantly accessible medium for me

Just tell them you have slow internet or that streams stress your network too much.

Apple has a file that reads like this-

time of f == 4{x * N}

Where you can create a storm on the dark net

What about the constant capturing of real time location, app use, search history, music interests, friends and family, photos, shopping interests, etc. We give all this data away all the time willingly. And yeah we do have proof that it's being sold. So what? We just all have these "profiles" collected, made, and sold without anyone even blinking an eye? That's some pretty sketchy shit. Entering this digital age is one hell of a ride so far. I mean it's only been about 20 years that most of this has spawned from, I can't even begin to imagine the breaches of privacy in the next 20. And if that doesn't scare you, then I don't know what will. Not that there's even anything to hide but what about machine learning with predictive search results or just similar tech for literally any reason. I don't wanna live in some controlled society where everything is targeted, monitored, and stored for sale. Well, we already do. And you guys are right, it so is tin foil hat sounding, so why would anyone listen. My closest friends don't even listen. What's left to even do except literally disconnect yourself from this new online society everyone lives in? I'm lonely enough as it is haha.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon

Basically this. It is mentally unhealthy to feel like you're being watched. If nothing you do is private, you will, over time, change your habits. This hinders personal growth and our growth as a society. Nothing to do with you as who you are, but with what/who you COULD become.

Most choose to police themselves to fit in, but I believe most people here become privacy-obsessed and paranoid.
If I have no privacy, I have no thought to call my own. If I have no thought I can call 'mine', I don't think. I don't think, therefore I aren't.

The panopticon idea shows it well: If you can't tell if you're not being watched, you will be less likely to do things others MIGHT deem wrong.

this is rasberri pis in about 5 ~ 10 years will be in everything.

it will be powerfull enough to do most taks you want word surf etc (not gamez obs) be a phone etc etc.

Still me, thoughts come slowly.

Imagine you have a grudge against someone.
Imagine NOTHING you say is private.
That person holds a grudge against you.
They know what you say.
They get in the way of your success (a job, school or something).
They deny the thing on the basis of your grudge.

Nothing being private will cause potentially unwanted reactions from your surrounding.

That question is very indicative of how they want you to view users who implement their thoughts into actions and changes in lifestyle

As technology improves and the botnet maps one's mental model even more precisely, we will certainly see next gen ads that attack our weak points. It will hit hard and swift, and our willpower will truly be tested.

There is no escape from the botnet, however you're completely right about vested interests manipulating cultural perception. You also get tactics like a spy agency contributing nonsense to accurate conspiracy theories to make the whole thing look crazy so people disregard it. I wouldn't be surprised if this type of tactic were used in the war against corporate alternatives.

Blame corporate cock sucker. If you pay for digital distribution then you have no right to complain.

Wasnt selinux developed by redhat and the nsa?
Wasnt tor developed by us navy?

>sweetie
Fuck off you patronising git.

The key to addressing this issue is mental maturity.
In the last twenty or so years we have had an explosion in the numbers of people who either resist or are unable to transition from childhood into adulthood.
This needs to be fixed. Any attempts to fix this mess will be futile otherwise.
Read this book. Understand that the net is not the issue, but the way that it presents its content is.
Understand this. Only then can the kiddult problem be fixed and its related addiction to this "botnet" be ended.
Read this book.

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systemd is also funded and developed by redhat with significant backing by the nsa, and it's forcefully shoved onto everybody so fast and has such a rapid development rate that it's literally impossible to audit.
If you can't ballbust linus and his crew into accepting your literal spyware backdoors, force everybody to use a monolithic kernel-on-a-kernel init system instead.

I always end up ruining my perspective on life. I started off learning marketing and being on the top end of collecting Metadata to target people in order to sell to and eventually kept going down that rabbit hole. Marketers do ruin everything. I can't look at anything without picturing the bullshit emotions some asshole like me is trying to make someone feel through it. Seeing the progression of shit it's pretty obvious that money is going to end up being useless in the near future. There'll still be wageslaves and such but as the IoT revolution begins to unfold the true upperclass are the guys who have anything they want simply because they have a masterkey. Watchdogs may be a mediocre game but they're not wrong depicting the type of shit that people are going to be able to do.

>Not being able to weave a fake online footprint for (((them)))
>All while keeping under (((their))) radar
Not gonna make it

>At any point in time the mass populace has given a fuck about a niche group’s concerns
No

Niche group's knowledge needs to be promulgated widely. These clowns need to know what is happening.

It's not just that, to me it's an issue of liberty and freedom from control.

Do you have absolute trust in everything your government does? Do you believe that they are above reproach? That they never have and never will do something you disagree with? How about corporations that seem to think they're above the law?

Handing over this kind of information so willingly and completely unknowingly as to how it's going to be used seems incredibly short sighted.

The potential for abuse is huge. Say you had different political views, this data can be used to single you out and people who share your opinions and continue to marginalise and discredit you.

Look at the social credit system being implemented in China, it's just a means to control dissent and further marginalise the people on the fringes of society.

The majority of people don't realise handing over this data is like willingly giving them the keys to your own jail cell, because it's convenient, because you want to be accepted like everyone else.

The social pressure to conform with whats considered 'acceptable' is removing people's freedom of thought. Making us all easier to control, and making it easier to track down the people who don't agree with the rest of society's mindless groupthink. It's basically social suicide to voice an opinion that's controversial these days.

It's an authoritarian regimes wet dream, total access to all information, total control of the entire populace. They know who you are, where you are at all times, who you associate with, what your political views are, even what kind of porn you watch. And we're supposed to just have faith that all this data will never be abused? I'd rather take responsibility for my own data myself, than trust some corporation whose only concern is making more profit, or a government that only wants to cling to power, to do it for me.

>giving a comeback to b8
are you new? ultra stupid posts like user don't deserve an intelligent response.
lrn 2 4chnk

Someone, somewhere, will come up with this argument. It will not be bait to them.

This is what keeps me up a night

>from each according to their abilities to each according to their needs
Monitoring every single person is a built in necessity of this system.

I think I'm a bit late to the party but I literally used to believe this until a few years ago.
Here's a senario. You have a small family, just you, your missus and your daughter. Your daughter is 8 years old and amazing so you want everyone to know that. You put up pictures of her on Facebook. You involuntarily also show where they are taken. Her first play is shared. You wanna surprise her so you take her out to ice cream after school etc.
Now all this is good and cool until Facebook leaks that data.
Any person, even a child gore fetishist, can look up what your daughter looks like, where she goes to school, what are the timings, where does she live, almost everything.
>but they only care about catching pedophiles and terrorists online
Nothing personal kid