I'm wondering what the best way to do offline backups is. I've looked at tape drives and that seems ridiculous to me to pay what it would cost to basically build a new computer for a drive that I'll only ever use in case of an emergency..
Is the best solution to just buy some cheap HDDs and let them sit on a shelf?
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Use DVD-RWs.
For backing up 100s of GBs, if not TBs of data?
I just do raid and rely on data mirroring. Its a no no but inexpensive and better than nothing.
Buy a bunch of HDDs and let them set on a shelf, my guy.
Unless you want to wait for that data engraving tech Israel invented that they used to laser engrave the Torah onto something the size as a mini six-sided die... "Nano Bible".
Are the WD My Books good for this type of thing?
M disc
Not cheap but way cheaper tapes. Besides im not sure how tapes would react to an EMP for example. Mdiscs are safe for hundreds of years as long as you keep it in a scratch free container
Optical media costs more per GB than hard drives.
Just do the math, open up a spreadsheet and put every storage product, you'll see what I'm talking about.
Tape can be cheaper if you find cheap used tapes, but the problem is that you might not find more of that type for cheap in the future, and LTO writers are only compatible one generation back. And there's a new gen coming out every couple years.
Cheapest solution for
Unless you can get a VERY good deal for used tapes plus a writer.
Tapes are cheap as fuck, it's the drive that makes it a big investment
>walking home together
>gently
you need at least three of each tape copy as even the least safe of practice
no
Tape stops being so cheap per GB when you begin looking for older types (LTO-3/LTO-5 range), which is where you might find used readers at a decent price
Really? That sounds like overkill
Isn't a 30% parchive file not enough?
I was thinking of very long term storage.
HDDs will get fucked one way or another in a few decades while mdiscs are super reliable (considering someone still has a working reader)
From wiki:
"The discs were subject to the following test conditions in the environmental chamber: 85°C, 85% relative humidity (conditions specified in ECMA-379) and full spectrum light".[9][10]But according to a test of theFrench National Laboratory of Metrology and Testingat 90°C and 85% humidity, for 1,000 hours, the DVD+R with inorganic recording layer such as M-DISC showed similar deterioration in quality as other conventional discs with an organic recording layer, with a maximum lifetime of below 250 hours.[11]
figuring out some good way to flash the bios on a VHS recorder and have it store data in same format as these tape recorders.
no reason VHS shouldn't be able to old like 12tb or some thing. the kits that exist just store the data via color which isn't efficient.
>flash the bios on VHS recorder
Wut? Since when this got ever BIOS?
Does it relate to at any point to
en.wikipedia.org
Just use 14TB drives, way cheaper than a tape drive
$500 vs $3000 for the tape drive only, doesn't even include the cost of the tapes
>en.wikipedia.org
that method is shit.
my point is you need new PCB or some thing in the VHS player so you can record as data not just color data which is inefficient and only lets like 2gig be stored.
with pure data you could store like 12tb. (might need a new recording head or gears thou idknow)
if your long term storing over like 80tb tape is cheaper.
Blurays are probably the best at the moment
Only go for M-Disc if you think they'll be stored in bad conditions. If you think you can store them in a dark humidity and temp controlled closet or something, then just use normal blurays as they should have no problem lasting 20+ years.
>inb4 anegdotal
I've dug up some ears ago a nearly 100 CD/DVD-Rs, which were laying in dark for a decade at least.
I can confirm that majority held up well. Some of them had singular corrupted files.
AFAIK, there is some implementation that allows to store data in RAID-like style, where you put data on several optical drives and have extra one for correction.
>I can confirm that majority held up well. Some of them had singular corrupted files.
unless you checked every disc after burning for errors, it's possible those errors were there at the time you wrote the disc, and not accumulated over time.
My mistake. Quite forgot about that.
dont put them on a shelf where they can fall over. put them in a fireproof container where they can live unmolested by domestic hazards.
>90°C and 85% humidity, for 1,000 hours
But how does that translate to lifespan in normal storage in your average home?
Cause I don't know about you, but I don't often hit 90°C and 85% humidity in my home
As you have been told in the previous threads, LTO tapes are likely made of different materials than VHS (allowing higher data densities), and they don't have a BIOS, it's all done on hardware.
Blu-ray both costs more and rots faster than hard drives.
Maybe, but there are working drives from the 70s and 80s right now. Not to mention you still can send the drive to a data recovering business, the platter probably lasts longer than the thin metal layer on any kind of optical disk.
The disks deteriorate mainly from their own materials, humidity and temps don't matter that much.
It doesn't matter, the test was made to compare their resilience relative to each other.
BluRay or LTO tapes. The latter is too fucking expensive.
Either that or forget the idea. HDDs and SSDs aren't stable.
And then there's the """cloud""".
Jesus christ nigger, at least use write-ONCE media.
And there is no reason to use DVDs for backup anymore, when BluRay is so cheap. The drives may be more expensive but it's a very worth investment.
Bullshit, it's impossible for standard HTL bluray media to even rot in the first place, it's completely inorganic. It's a metallic layer and it's resistant.
Not cheaper than hard drives.
>what is oxidation
>what is galvanic corrosion
>what is chemical corrosion
>both costs more and rots faster than hard drives
lmao, how the fuck would you know this? What long term testing has been done on blurays?
Also, you can get 25TB worth of 25GB BD-R Verbatim branded discs for around $850.
And if you're willing to go with cheaper blank discs from the no name companies, you can get 25TB worth for around $650.
Beat those prices with HDDs.
Which aren't suitable for "cold storage" as OP requested.
HDDs aren't supposed to sit on a shelf unused for 15 years.
>HDDs aren't supposed to sit on a shelf unused for 15 years.
Yet they'd probably fare better than an SSD in the same situation
I just checked on Amazon and compared them with your example too (pic related). "Copystars" bluray disks are slightly better value than HDs, but that's without considering the bluray drive. And being shitty quality, some of them will probably fail to write correctly, which lowers the value. Not to mention HDs are more convenient to use.
>lmao, how the fuck would you know this? What long term testing has been done on blurays?
They're made of the same materials than DVDs and CDs, only adjusted to respond to a different wavelength.
Regular optical disks aren't either.
There are examples of disks from the 70s and 80s still working.
On the other hand, optical media written at home (as opposed to professionally pressed stuff) in my experience only lasts like 5 years before beginning to show bad sectors on the outer edge of the disk.
>They're made of the same materials than DVDs and CDs
Except the polycarbonate layer on Blurays is 2-3x as thick as it is on DVDs, claiming they'll react the same is just dumb as fuck.
Also, HDDs are NOT meant to sit around unused for years. Discs are. HDDs for cold storage is retarded.
You either use physical media discs (bluray/DVD), or you use LTO drives. LTO however really only has it's place in larger operations where we're talking about storing 50TB+.
>in my experience only lasts like 5 years before beginning to show bad sectors on the outer edge of the disk.
I've got optical CD backups from the late 1990s that I still use at work occasionally, no issues reading data off those. Though when they were created they were checked for errors before being put away in storage.
You could try cloud deep storage solutions. they'll have the tape shit setup and you just pay for long term storage at low rates. Would be cheaper than buying a fucking tape drive.
Maybe I used shitty quality ones, dunno
>Except the polycarbonate layer on Blurays is 2-3x as thick as it is on DVDs
Good to know
If you ever have to actually access your data, the fees are outrageous. Wouldn't recommend unless you're pretty sure you ain't gonna touch them ever.
>Maybe I used shitty quality ones, dunno
It can also be the writer. Look online at forums and there are people out there who write optical media ALL the time and there are known good and bad optical media writers, even for bluray, some drives just perform far better than others at error correction.
LTO tapes in a safe rated for at least 30 minutes in a fire. Also have another set in a different location such as your workplace or a PO box.
Good discs do, but most people always bought the cheapest of shit.
Burning discs is a bitch, fact, but if you've got the right combination of a good drive and good media, then yes it lasts a long ass time.
There's quite some studies simulating wear showing 15 years lifespan for quality DVDs, and 50+ for BDs
I have shit CD's recorded in the late 90's that are completely readable, even some from infamous brands like Princo, as I do have CDs and DVDs recorded 3 years ago that are unreadable now (not really quality media, but the common "good" brands easily available)
The only cold storage that's adequate for small users it's still optical media, specially HTL BD-R, outside of that you either need tape or do weird and incredibly less convenient things like printing your backups, or just use hot storage
Those are Verbatim LTO BD-Rs, they're trash and barely any better than DVD-Rs for long term backups
The average lifespan of a HDD it's around 6 years, quite less if it's under lots of power off/on cycles, a bit more if it's under constant usage
HTL BD's last way more by the simple fact that they don't have any moving parts, and they are inorganic
And unlike HDDs, they aren't affected by magnetic fields or cosmic rays
The only way to do this it's with D-VHS, old school analog VHS are usually entirely analog
Look into miniDV (or any DV) camcorders, you can get about 12gb of storage in those, they aren't that good for long term but any miniDV camcorder will work
There's DVDdisaster, nice stuff
On HTL BD-R the recording layer it's inorganic while on DVD-R and CD-R it's organic (even the snakeoil archival gold discs)
LTO BD-R have the same organic recording layer that older media has, unfortunately this is the most common nowadays with HTL discs being somewhat more expensive and way harder to find
>Is the best solution to just buy some cheap HDDs and let them sit on a shelf?
At the scale at which you're likely doing this, yes.
Either that, or a full NAS box that does wake-on-lan something equivalent [so you can do RAID6 and automate your backups].
That isn't cold storage
put it in the freezer
>unfortunately this is the most common nowadays with HTL discs being somewhat more expensive and way harder to find
From what I can tell, almost all discs are HTL at the moment
Yea, WoL isn't full cold storage. It's more practical however since you can augment/update/retrieve/periodically verify the data conveniently.
That said, of course you can cold store a whole array with its computer. Actually that may reduce the trouble in getting data off it in 40-60 years, at least you got a good number of physical ports and protocols to work with.
>Is the best solution to just buy some cheap HDDs and let them sit on a shelf?
Yep, even used HDDs aren't going to fail just sitting in storage, you can get cheap used HDDs for very cheap because nobody wants to buy used HDDs.
>even used HDDs aren't going to fail just sitting in storage
You can't actually be this stupid...right?
>write to HDD once
>keep it in ideal storage conditions
Literally near-zero chance of failure.
Yeah, that's why EVERYONE uses HDDs for long term archival storage...right?
Oh wait...NO ONE uses HDDs for that? I wonder fucking why.
Not him but the only issue with letting drives sit is the platter getting stuck, which can be fixed by any data recovery business with a laminar airflow box.
What the hell makes you think nobody does it? They do do it.
Nextcloud with a hard drive enclosure.
SMR hard drives, tape or blu ray discs
From worst to best
>They do do it.
No they don't. No one is using HDDs for long term 10-15 year + data storage, it'd be fucking retarded.
Yea, most storage is on hdd, even the long term data like the one kept by banks.
Sure, some entities also do tape drives, but its almost always the storage they hope to never use, the last backup. And there have been issues with using tapes for that, mostly of the human sort.
Either way, replicated / verified storage on hdd is where virtually all important data is, and yea you usually keep that warm.
For warm storage sure, HDDs are the obvious choice. We're SPECIFICALLY talking about cold storage here. Who the fuck is using HDDs for cold storage?
What makes you think nobody uses HDDs for long-term storage? You know HDD data lasts for decades in ideal conditions right?
>Who the fuck is using HDDs for cold storage?
Everyone who can't afford tape and don't want to use discs
Almost all data that came from 10-15 years ago has been moved forward on HDD.
Whether the entities and people planned to still be around is rather insubstantial.
Because i've worked for companies that have a legal mandate to keep certain documents for at least 15 years. They use tape backups, and DVDs.
>he actually thinks cold storage means low-temperature storage
Holy shit
raid 10 in a gun safe
Look at what you can find on local supermarkets, NewEgg and Best Buy
Yeah, it's way more practical and probably cheaper, while providing a box that can be used for other purposes, like Plex or a seedbox, and easing a lot the automation of backups
>of course you can cold store a whole array with its computer. Actually that may reduce the trouble in getting data off it in 40-60 years
No modern HDD would last that long
>what are stuck bearings
>evaporated oil
There's plenty of extremely low tolerance parts in an HDD that aren't designed to sit idle for long times, you're looking at expensive recovery firms to get data off at that point, and even then they can easily fail at it
Nice way to oust yourself as a brainlet, warm storage means it is still powered on sometimes
...what? Warm means it's running and hooked up to a power source.
Cold means it's disconnected and not hooked up at all. With tape that means the tape isn't in the drive, though the drive may still be connected and powered on, the tape itself isn't. With HDDs, it means they're disconnected from power and usually in storage containers not inside a chassis.
And I'm making the point that tapes [and that's about the only option other than bluray or m-discs, both of which are pretty small] are *last chance* type storage, not proven long-term archival methods.
Using these for long-term storage isn't a proven concept and has failed a LOT of times in reality. Good luck using that home VHS tape or audio tape or even Iomega Zip drive storage now. And even big companies lost their tapes.
The proven method is warm storage. Maybe stone tablets and books too, heh.
>he doesn't keep his cold storage in a hot room and his hot storage in a cold room
>No modern HDD would last that long
Based on what exactly? The 20+ year old drives that people tried had the data intact.
>Modern HDDs
>20+ year old drives
>They use tape backups, and DVDs.
Meaning they don't give a shit as long as they can claim to have made an effort, and want to get it out of the way cheaply.
Print everything onto paper.
Punched tape
You haven't answered the key question:
> Based on what exactly?
What did you / research do to simulate 20 years, and how did it fail on new HDD in a way that couldn't be reasonably mitigated with some more HDD or parity data?
Considering pretty much ANY time we've needed to access data that old (only a handful of times to be fair) it's been accessible. I'd say for this purpose, it's not an issue.
We aren't looking to recover 100% of the data, we generally will just need a dozen or two documents out of a pile of 1000.
And? The point is this type of storage was chosen because you do not give much of a fuck if it doesn't work, as long as you can claim that you tried.
Generally that's the case with cold storage yes.
If it's data you reasonably expect to need to access at ANY point, you're better off keeping it warm on HDDs, I wont dispute that, in fact, I encourage HDDs over tape or optical media for backups, UNLESS you actually need cold storage, in which case, tape or optical (depending on the amount of data you need to keep) are the proper options.
VHS (while sitting on decent conditions and in cold storage) along most audio tapes (special 1/4" and 1/2" analog audio tapes) have proven themselves
Specially the later, 1950's and 1960's audio tapes have been read in the last decade to produce new restored recordings
The Google paper on HDD lifetime shows an average lifetime of 6 years, there's a few other papers out there with similar results but none as big as the Google one
/thread
>The Google paper on HDD lifetime shows an average lifetime of 6 years
Eh, you mean the one where they give the median life for the HDD they use warm/online in their data center usage?
Which it's a much better scenario than no usage at all, HDD bearings seize quite easily when they aren't being used, the minuscule oil needed in other moving parts, like the actuator, do as well
HDDs have never been designed to sit unused for long periods of time
RAID is not backup. It's there so one or two drives failing doesn't bring the entire server down. That said a proper file versioning system should be the first step in preventing accidental destruction of important data.
>he doesn't cool his data
shiggy diggy
Why are tape drives so expensive?
They don't look anymore complicated mechanically than optical drives are and certain not spinning disk drives.
Because they're niche devices for large businesses pretty much exclusively. They have no particular use-cases for home users or even medium/small businesses.
Economies of scale, and they are more complicated than HDD, a reliable and precise transport like the one needed by LTO drives it's pretty expensive to manufacture
>the oil evaporates faster on a powered off drive
user, I...
It changes it's consistency and viscosity, usually it's components separate
Paper
Meh, they say that about a of previously commercial-only tech
>and they are more complicated than HDD
Maybe, but I'm gonna dispute this. The mechanics of the drive motor and the actuator arm are very precise and require extremely high tolerances when setting the stacking distance between it and each of the platters. This is more advanced than simply controlling the spooling of tape between two rollers on read-back, and both types of drives use buffer logic to control these actions on pcbs. The exposed disc platters on HHDs meanwhile also mean that during manufacture they require clean spaces to assemble them in.
youtube.com
I think Asus, LG, etc. could manufacture a consumer tape drive for less than $1,000 easy if they wanted. Hell Razer could probably do it and add flashing RGB Read/Write LEDs and label it the Blizzard Cold Storage Locker or something.
>easy if they wanted
No one would buy them, so no, they couldn't. Because they'd never re-coup the cost of the R&D just to make the damn things.
There is NO reasonable home use-case for LTO tape drives.
Goymers have no use for large amounts of slow storage. Everything they use needs to be downloaded from steam to be useful anyways
Use BD-XLs or BD-DLs?
Tape and optical are too expensive, RAID with an off-site cold storage using HDD is an almost impossible scenario for failure. Out of the 13 companies I've worked for, only 1 used tape storage.
>What is the best way to do cold storage?
Vinyls + optical vinyl reader
>write on BDs
>put discs in a container full of some kind of pure oil
>vacuum air bubbles out with a compressor
>store for decades
how retarded is this idea? would the oil itself fuck up the disc?