Too many wannabes entering our industry

I'm with you emotionally, but rationally, you're a faggot and you don't own shit. Everyone is free to do whatever they want, and you have to suck it up, nigger.

it is what it is. business programming will always be like that. but the soul and spirit of coding for fun and for the love of it will exist in open source, no matter what happens. also, the fuck is leetcode?

Who cares, more retards writing borign shit like web cruds means more interesting tasks for me.

Software engineering is something that should be respectable, but there's currently no sane way of teaching it in an academic setting. It's only through working with useful code and reasoning through how it can be structured and way that one becomes skilled in software engineering.

>every foundation is written in C
>so many abstractions people now think C is a deprecated language
>all new technology still has its core written in C
/dpt/ used to have actual programmers, homework and shitposters and now it's just homework and shitposters.

>/dpt/ used to have actual programmers, homework and shitposters and now it's just homework and shitposters.
Damn, back then we didn't even have these types of forums so any CS assignments you were on your own. I always thought the newcomers getting into the industry were not as bright these days...

I used to be like what OP described, young, passionated, do coding every day for fun.

Now after 5 years of writing flawless apps for various companies, I am really tired - I don't want to follow style guide, best practices, optimisations etc anymore.

What differences does it make, if my elegant, beautiful codes function exactly the same as some offshore Indian teams? The business can't tell the difference, the customers don't care, and they delivery quicker than I do because I spent too much time over-optimising my codes.

I think is time to change my mind, and lower my standard a bit. Because if I don't, the business would find someone who does.

but no matter what the left does: software engineering is inherently merit based because it's essentially math and boils down to correct or wrong. not 'i feel like this should work'. so those people will be useless and out of a job all the time.

>software engineering is inherently merit based because it's essentially math and boils down to correct or wrong
that's computer science
engineering is applied science and is not objective

a wannabe is not a bedroom coder

thats wrong tho... pic related

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If you're the real deal you wouldn't be worried.

>python

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Isn't /dpt/ just "plz help with my homework" general now?
>post about meaningful and fun project
>nobody is remotely interested
>newbie posting his trivial problem
>gets 10 (Yous)

The real fucking problem is they get paid the same as me and I have to do all the fucking hard work because they are fucking retards. FUCK.

We only have shitty companies here in Australia. There is no other company.

he specifically made the point that these are the kind of people that don't code in their bedrooms

Better than being a code monkey for a fistful of rupees or a desk slave in China. Don't think too much about it, embrace it.

They can say their boss sexually harassed them while they wrote the code, so their thoughts were scrambled. Boss gets fired and they get promoted.

I end up becoming that devops dude instead because theres so many web developers

The fact of the matter is, it doesn't really matter if you're top of the industry. If you are and you're smart about interviewing good places, you'll find yourself at companies where they don't hire fuckstorms.

>Does anyone else think our industry is becoming saturated with too many “software engineers”?

Current "software engineers" (aka script kiddies) are getting paid a decent amount of dough.

Current stablishment wishes they could pay them minimum wage, less if possible.

How do I shot web? Saturate "laborforce" with moar "engineers".

Voilá.

Get back to your boring coding grognard while we attractive people chat and get paid more for simply being there. God I hate you disgusting people. If we didn't actually need you to do all the legwork we'd have rounded you all up and shot you years ago.

Because coding is being fronted as "the solution to unemployment" and being pushed very heavily by the media. Not everyone is cut out to do it, but so many people feel like it's their only career option with the media constantly saying many traditional avenues of employment are "dying"

A Software engineer is someone that can take a problem, and design a solution. This requires a lot of creativity and intelligence, and if you ever tried to actually design a program, you'd realize this.

A programmer can implement the solution in multiple ways, he can optimize and refactor code to make it more performant, or succint. He doesn't need to copy and paste to get things done. He lacks the creativity to actually design a program, but he is capable of doing things his own way when he has the general plan.

A coder is someoneone that can only write menial code, usually things like regex, or validation, he isn't able to do complex things, he can only reiterate what he has learned how to do. He is usually assigned to clean up code.

This is why you go into low level programming and not shitty webdev or java. :^)

I am somewhat similar, but it is cured with maturity and experience. You have to adapt, it sucks, it can hurt your brain, but when working with a company you have to follow their style, and work within their time constraints.

Overrated bullshit. The real difficulty is in inventing new algorithms that don't exist yet, or at least I find the high level engineering relatively easy if you grind it for a bit.

But new algorithms? Fuck man, that needs being good at math. You may never be able to do it properly with "programming". That's where real science enters.

>or at least I find the high level engineering relatively easy if you grind it for a bit.
I dont think you've done real high level engineering then
Architecture is the most complex part about programming by far and it only gets easy if you stagnate
Although I don't know if I've ever invented a new algorithm, but when was the last time anyone used an algorithm that wasn't more than 40 years old?

Its not a problem, any company that is making money or wants to make money will not hire people without skills (that will make instead of costing money), generally casuals who just want to get into it because of money or because someone somewhere said software developing is good will not make it (unless they are prepared to do something they have no interest in and have strong willpower to continue with it, in that case its fine)

>when was the last time anyone used an algorithm that wasn't more than 40 years old?
You must be joking. With the disgustingly slow progress of the shrinking of the transistor nowadays, inventing new algorithms - or least figuring out the right one out a sea of algorithms (that in itself needs good knowledge of math, not just some abstract "engineering" knowledge) - is THE main way to get performance nowadays.

Architecture of programming is overrated for most people. Sure, it's hard for kids and brainlets, but those aren't the problems that are the biggest barriers nowadays.

Unless you follow the trendy delusion that everything should be wasteful because "derp, I'm Google, if it's slow, just buy more hardware".

I think it's an attempt to oversaturate this industry (guess by who) to drive down wages, plain and simple, that's why there's a million of those bootcamps and millions of those people.

on the contrary, performance in complex applications is all about architecture, there's very few magic algorithms that can save your performance
Although I guess it depends what you consider and algorithm and what you just consider software design
There isn't a very large amount of basic, elemental algorithms out there - there's a few general ones with specific variants for differnt use cases

Why would this be a problem, if you're a skilled dev? If the mass of low-grade programmers increases, it would imply that it's even easier for you to stick out the masses, if you know how to present your skills? No?

Yes, it seems like everyone gets into coding. It seemed that way 10 years ago too, if you were around those circles to that time. I don't think there are any less positions now, rather more. There's some devaluation of the salaries going on (salary median increases steadily, however doesnt seem to catch up with inflation?)

I recently even got my GF to start learning python (oh god). She may not become a programmer, but why the hell should people not know how to use a language like that?
Even if you're not a programmer, knowing a rather easy language like Python can make your life easier in lots of ways i.e. when you have to complete some repititive work, even without being a software-engineer. And then, if normal office people know some coding and also know how to distinguish easy from hard problems, and have a certain appreciation for the work done, I think everyone profits.

Algorithms aren't limited to just manipulating an array (which is what C++ does), they are everything that can be considered logic that manipulates data.
The room of improvement in that area is practically infinite.
In age when the transistor shrinking comes to a standstill, algorithm progress is the true way, and the only reason you don't see it much is exactly because it's hard, which is the whole point.
Pray for a new paradigm of transistors/computing or mathematicians will take over the computer world completely.

I agree that my field is being saturated as incompetent people as well.

Though in my case it's electrical engineering and it's being overrun by shitty failed CS majors and dropouts that couldn't get a job in their own field because they were beat out by some soccer mom that codes with her book club on Tuesdays. Seriously, you autists have to fucking go back. Nobody wants you sperges polluting our field like you polluted your own. Stay the fuck out of EE. You will ruin it.

I think algorithms have a clearly defined purpose and constraints, so you can mathematically reason about them and find objectively the best algorithm for the situation (like sorting an array) The thing is those sorts of things are usually discovered in any particular field of programming very quickly and rest is all partially subjective software design bullshit. Good programmers don't discuss algorithms, they discuss software design and making leaner software that fulfills its purpose more efficiently without any bloat

That's where you are wrong. Not everyone has to do the mundane that has been done by thousands others in the past.
If you want to do something novel, then nobody will help you to find the algorithm.
Let alone invent one but even finding the right one can need deep math knowledge.

why the fuck would you care

you can’t even HTML

What new software are you creating that needs algorithms nobody has thought of before? I'd really be interested to know, because nobody has really done anything conceptually new with computers for a long time, everyone is just optimizing shit at this point

Can you prove that you're actually better than them?

last corp I worked as had only CS majors and self-taught people and their code was absolute youtube pajeet tier trash, way worse then what I saw being taught at bootcamps materials on github
so its not so black and white, an interested bootcamp grad will probably be better than a slacker CS or udemy grad

I'm so glad I went into network administration, and didn't become a software "engineer".

Am I missing something, where did OP talk about computer science?

Because it's a booming(though with a bubble in certain areas) industry, and you motherfuckers need more people.
Oh, yeah, respectable job with cash, too.

t. wannabe

Pretty much this. I don't care anymore if I had to write some shitty Javascript when something could be done with only CSS. My boss can complain if he sees me more than one hour reading documentation.

They want shitty code, and that's what they have.

The saying is "dog eat dog" you fucking idiot.

Not in Canada

>muh industry
you're not even trueSTEM

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I'd categorize a large portion of cryptography developments as "new algorithms"; ZKP, homomorphic, you could say there's "new algorithms" within pq-crypto.

there's always work to be done in terms of vectorizing these things (in safe manner), which largely require "new algorithms".

I'd define a large portion of the decentralized consensus protocols as "new algorithms".

there's complexity research, which largely has to do with existing and "new algorithms". there's the now looming quantum computer, with quantum "new algorithms".

I know nothing of ML research, "big data" garbage, or quant finance, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's "new algorithms" within that field, or at least "new heuristics".

anything that entails rigorous use of math; as long as math develops, there will be "new algorithms".

>people still fall for this
Retards like you are a diamond dozen

>haha I was merely pretending to be a retard

don't know anything about crypto so maybe
I would consider something like bittorrent or blockchain to be a protocol rather than an algorithm, and machine learning and big data stuff is alot of statistics but it's also inefficient as hell and people are doing it just by throwing large amounts of computing power at a problem
When you look at the fields of computer programming people always discover the fundamental algorithms early and most refinement of the concept from that point onwards is all software design

>mfw I get paid to make tryhards like op cry.
Go be ugly inside somewhere else

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As Eli the Computer Guy once said: accept any high position that companies are stupid enough to hire you for.

You want to become a software engineer? You don't need a fancy education, or intelligence. You just need to convince some HR guy to hire you.

Is Automate the Boring Stuff with Python a good option? I'm just an office wageslave.

That's what you think, pleb

>used to work in a tech founder company
>CEO/CTO/owner and iOS team-lead was the same person
>8 hours of solid coding required each day
>put in even more time when major releases were upcoming
>code always peer reviewed
>always scrutinized
>constantly pushed
>learning and applying algorithms every day
>coming up with new ones
>documentation documentation documentation
>no fun at all
>$54,000/yr
>quit

>joined a company with completely non-technical founders
>CTO is always busy with some administrative stuff
>CTO is bright, but borderline lazy and doesn't give a shit
>most of team are juniors
>what takes them three full days takes me an hour if I concentrate really hard
>I'm a god amongst them
>never work longer than 8 hours
>usually start day at 10 and clock out at 16
>3 hours of non-stop coding
>3 hours of learning what interests me, tinkering around or dealing with juniors
>considered to be most productive dev of the company
>announce there's a technical show&tell for juniors in 3 days
>spend 3 days playing DOOM
>explain redux like I would to a 5 year old
>everyone claps at the end
>4 new Slack conversations afterwards
>user I don't get it, explain pls
>looks like my agenda is set for the next month!
>$65,000/yr

How is that a bad thing? I'm a fucking superstar now and I have never worked less hours in my life.

You're still getting rapped salary wise.
You should be nearing six figures

Life is cheap in rural Alabama. I think I have more disposable income as opposed to 100k salary in SF

/dpt/ is still obsessed with C even though hardly anybody writes it on a daily basis. You're a boomer.

user, people like that are trying to sell you sales and marketing courses for ledditards who self identify as "geeks".
You can't say you are a quant or made Google billions of dollars if you aren't or haven't. Experience with particular technologies DO matter. Most of the stuff in that article is senseless drivel and FUD about outsourcing trying to "convert" you into a customer for his own products.
But here's the deal: as a programmer, if you are so removed from the people who call the shots that you have to worry about outsourcing (say on a big corporation like Microsoft or a big bank) it doesn't matter if you call yourself a "solutions engineer" or whatever. You are still gonna be laid off when upper management decides to hire poojeets instead.

I made $70k a year with no prior experience as local IT in a factory in Michigan (where cost of living is only slightly higher than the south). I basically just fixed printers, plugged stuff in and did basic shit.

>I made $70k a year with no prior experience as local IT in a factory in Michigan (where cost of living is only slightly higher than the south). I basically just fixed printers, plugged stuff in and did basic shit.

I do more complex stuff than that, and i earn 40k REEEEEEEE

I've always have had unlimited PTO, fully paid sick leave and 100% working gear reimbursement up to $5k/yr, full health and dental insurance and matching 401k. All this time I've thought that it's not that bad desu.

I get paid 20 to sit in a chair and pretend I'm security on a night shift.

>software engineers
Cringe. I hate how coders make up these fake titles for themselves.

I work on PI for a major apple supplier.

No benefits
High taxes
No future

I heard several girls a work laughing because they didn't know what a raspberry PI-(diff product)

At 50 I'm jumping off a bridge.

>sounds pretty go-
>65k
Lol, just lol

Why do you people need so much money?
I make 50k a year, and I have about €1,000 spare every month that I barely use for anything.

If I made 100k, i wouldn't know what to do with all that money

>Eli the Computer Guy
I miss that guy, where is he up to these days?

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wow, it's like you can't even read.

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If you ever actually worked in development, you would know Software Programmer, Engineer, and Architect have distinct functions and are more than just titles that "coders" give themselves.

>Does anyone else think our industry is becoming saturated with too many “software engineers”?
No, the only jobs that are getting saturated are the ones that barely require any knowledge or skills beyond using shitty frameworks and easymode programming

programming means nothing without a project worth working on
yeah sure a handful of flappybird tier apps are lottery tickets but most people don't do shit

CS dudes going into EE work (excluding embedded dev)? I've never heard of anyone doing that, only the other way around.

>all these McCoders afraid of losing their jobs to some random guy who just entered the industry
embarrassing

Not the guy you're responding to, but in my country there really isn't a true EE study. There's physics/electronics and there's informatics. Some informatics topics cover stuff like IC design and VHDL/Verilog as well as a bunch of hw related courses.

>our industry

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People really underestimate what programming is and how computers work. Making python scripts to do menial tasks is fine and what it is for. And honestly most of these boot camps are for exactly that. And web development.
Nobody is(or should be) writing enterprise level software managing something like medical devices in python. This is what comp Sci and eng degrees are for. Knowing C++, C and ASM, knowing how OS allocates resources and so on is what is moreso needed for software development.

These posers exist because there is a low barrier to entry, and 'coding' will score you points and looks good on a resume.

My mom has been writing in Basic and making macros for office shit since the 90s it seems and still remembers using Fortran but doesn't feel the need to gloat because she's just trying to get her work done. She also doesn't consider herself a programmer or engineer. Just an academic director who needs to manipulate date in spreadsheets.

Helpful post

In the town I grew up (Eastern EU) technology is on the rise.
Smaller town, a ton of people work in IT. But here's where the catch is. Most of them are front end devs or just doing some e-commerce products.
Not many people moved to the town, it's numbers even went down a lot in the past few years... So where did those people come from?
They were in schools to become bartenders, chefs, hair stylists... And because they decided they'd rather go to a few presentations and get good with people to get a job in some office and started believing that a big career is in front of them, the town lacks people to work in bars or restaurants, even some more places.

I moved away from that place as I couldn't stand being asked to do an assignment for someone that would take at least a week to do (as I have some standards, no matter what it is and who is it for). To make things worse, the assignments were either mobile apps and/or web apps with a few functionalities, basically UI, a database, REST and some code.
People weren't able to carry those out and were able to find jobs in IT fields just doing code monkey stuff.

not the user you all are replying to, but I think there's a good point embedded somewhere in what he said. There was a long time when it was just the "bedroom coder" types who dominated the industry. As demand for programmers increased, the number of those kinds of people didn't increase proportionally. Is there something we could have done to increase the number of people who took a genuine, vested interest in software, before things turned out like this?

We can call ourselves whatever we want, and there certainly are a lot of aspects of programming that are dissimilar to other engineering fields (the rapid, continuous nature of it, the sort of art form that arises from languages and styles, the fields of mathematics most often applied), but a large portion of what we do (analysis of designs, standards compliance, designing and evaluating structure before implementation) is engineering. Every industry has good and bad engineers. I don't think we can say that what's happening now is 100% preventable.

However, we could at least try to teach programming in a way that encourages people to find their inner "bedroom coder." Instead of focusing solely on application of programming, explain ideas and philosophy behind good software design. Things like balancing the simple and robust with and the complex and cerebral. Why C exists, even today- to expand on that, what a runtime is, and just how much work a more modern language is doing for you. Things like that would encourage people to appreciate programming for what it is, instead of appreciating programming for the paycheck it gives them.

>the left
lol

The problem is there's too many people who learned a programming language but never learned how to program. They can't even come up with the most basic algorithms on their own and have to be told what to code. They can do that just fine. Our company is split up like this. The senior developers hardly even code. We spend all day in workshops and what feels like classrooms coming up with ideas and instructions to meet our goals. These instructions get sent to the junior developers and they code it. And we review it.

I remember having lunch one day sitting next to a junior dev and he said to me he thought he wouldn't get the job because the interviewer asked him to check all values in an array if they match and to shrink the array so there are no duplicates. I can't comprehend how somebody who went to college for 4 years doesn't understand how to write an algorithm for this simple problem.

>Socially autistic coding wizards mad that the industry is favoring B+ devs who know how to speak to people

When I was in college, our professors told us that nowadays, software engineers in big companies don't even necessarily write code anymore.
They're mostly in charge of planning, design, maintenance, and stuff, but they outsource the actual "coding" to places like India.
The job of a software engineer is more of an intellectual and social nature: sitting together in a room, talking and brainstorming, and planning how the software is supposed to be.

But that's not the job I wanted. I want to get my hands dirty. So i went into server administration instead.

That's true, but not all companies outsource.

I wasn't expecting it at all. I do code but it's not my job to. We usually code untested algorithms to test their efficiency before sending it off to the junior devs. Or we fix the junior devs code and consult with them helping them grow. Everybody here starts out as junior dev and moves up when they prove they can do more than code. But were a small company with ~60 employees, so we don't really outsource anything because we don't have the volume to justify it.

I still code in my free time and contribute to open source. It's just the fact of the matter is being a developer or engineer or whatever subjective title your company calls you, it's not about knowing C++ or Java or Python. It's about knowing how to program, and that's what they test you on. Your ability to write algorithms to solve problems. It's difficult to find a job anymore where you only know how to code and need to be given a set of instructions. Our Junior Devs make $35-50K depending on if they're fresh out of school or have a year or two experience but couldn't pass the algorithm test in our interview process. Senior devs make $75-90K. This is in Texas.

> writes apps for fun, code on the weekend, etc
The fun thing is, burned out people don't do that too.

because everyone thinks they are too good for grabbing a shovel and digging like their grandparents did

>make 140k
>live in west coast city
>2bd apartment is 2750/mo
>parking in the city is 300/mo
>lunch at a restaurant is 15-20

Thank god I'm unmarried/no kids so I still have $ left over to save
Got a new job which allows remote work so I may just flee into the mountains