This is only loosely related to Jow Forums, but let's talk a little about universal basic income. I'm not even going to mention the part that who the fuck would even work then.
So the idea is that since companies will be able to manufacture all kinds of shit with automated production lines, they should pay taxes that would support UBI, so that people can continue to buy stuff and the company can continue make money.
Now, let's go back a little further. People don't fucking need money. They want products. It's just that back in the old ages to today, most people and even most companies couldn't produce everything by themselves. Say you were a smith or a carpenter or lumberjack or whatever else and that was it, that was your job and you had to buy everything else from other people who specialized in that profession (you'd buy flour form the miller for example). Thus the concept of money was born.
What would happen for a fully automated company? I'm thinking fully automated harvesters that produce crop, then mills it and even bakes bread, fully automated. This is just an example, but let's say the same company is also into milling and manufacturing and building etc. This company could literally make everything its owners could ever want in their lives.
The owners of this company would not care about other people, in fact they would want to get rid of them via population control before they rise up. To the company owners, people outside the company are just like pollution and pests. They consume the rare resources of Earth and pollute the air and water.
Why the fuck would they pay taxes to support the existence of millions of people via UBI?
Think about it. You are the owner of Google in the year 2060. By this time Google can do literally anything with automated machines and AI that you could possibly ask for. Would you pay taxes to keep the plebs alive for no reason whatsoever? Or would you kill everyone outside your tribe and enjoy Earth by yourself?
>the same company is also into milling and manufacturing and building etc Here I wanted to say mining instead of milling. So the company can mine all sorts of metals (fully automatically) and forward it to manufacture chips and whatever.
Jack Brooks
Products is not the only thing I buy with money, I also buy services and property.
But back to your question, UBI will only work when the democratic government has partial or full ownership in those companies, because then the main priority of the company becomes benefiting the public rather than maximising profit for the shareholders.
This is why UBI might work in countries such as Finland and Norway, but would fail miserably in the US.
Dylan Allen
That's how I've always seen it going as well. Why keep supporting billions of people who produce nothing and just consume resources and make babies who will in turn grow up and also produce nothing in their lives? It makes no sense that these extra people would be kept around by the good graces of the 1% of the population who actually runs these companies and oversees them when the rest of the population is reduced to being little more than a parasitic existence.
Daniel Wilson
>Products is not the only thing I buy with money, I also buy services and property. Okay but let's assume your company can provide all those services since why couldn't it? It's actual AI. And property isn't an issue if you eliminate close to 7 billion people. You could move to any place on the planet.
Thomas Gomez
>That's how I've always seen it going as well. Why keep supporting billions of people who produce nothing and just consume resources and make babies who will in turn grow up and also produce nothing in their lives? It makes no sense that these extra people would be kept around by the good graces of the 1% of the population who actually runs these companies and oversees them when the rest of the population is reduced to being little more than a parasitic existence. Because it's either that, holocausting the 99% quickly and effectively or a class war getting us back to dark ages I guess
Jonathan Smith
>Okay but let's assume your company can provide all those services since why couldn't it? If I prefer a human over an AI, then there's nothing that could change that.
>And property isn't an issue if you eliminate close to 7 billion people. You could move to any place on the planet. With this logic, property isn't an issue today either, because there is more unhabited land than inhabited. But people prefer to live close to each other, which is why the property prices are really high in city centres and quite low in rural areas.
Matthew Johnson
Publicly traded corporations only exist to make money for their shareholders, that is their fiduciary duty. What reason does a company need to exist if money no longer exists and it's goals involve killing the population to sustain it's growth?
Ayden Morris
Ubi is communism.
Let's do this.
Michael James
go back to
Grayson Hill
Consider the following: You receive bui(basic universal income), but when you work you also receive a pay check every month. So by doing both you get more to spend, the lazy people get enough to get by but that's all, and the people willing to work will receive a lot more. This would be the best thing for humanity. And when the time comes we would be able to do some effective population control.
Eli Torres
>UBI will only work when the democratic government has partial or full ownership in those companies This
James Miller
How about 3 hour work weeks and raise the minimum wage and cut out all unnecessary jobs. Raising the minimum wage will increase the incentive to automate business processes since human labor will be more valuable. And 3 hours since on average thats how long people are actually productive at work.
Landon Evans
>Raising the minimum wage will increase the incentive to automate business processes since human labor will be more valuable. And again leads to unemployment or outsourcing.
Liam Cooper
>the lazy people get enough to get by but that's all And what's in it for me? They're literally leeches.
>This would be the best thing for humanity More pollution by the people living on UBI? They're existence is a net negative for everyone else.
Isaac Martinez
(free) bread and circus.
Asher Roberts
>Raising the minimum wage will increase the incentive to automate business processes And what happens when you reach 100% automation? You fire everyone.
Thomas Ramirez
That's why you offer UBI with the stipulation that anyone on it cannot have offspring. (Birth control part of the UBI package). While we're at it. Give them free cigarettes, junk food, and alcohol so they will die quicker.
Liam Davis
>t. "Let's holocaust everyone except for me and people I consider cool" poster
Ryder Brooks
Very soon, robots are going to replace humans in lots of jobs. It is going to be very hard to find a job for uneducated people when this happens. With basic income, poor people who can't find a job will be able to eat and live. I promise you the elite have enough money to feed everyone and not notice the change in their bank accounts.
As for your example, you need people to buy something you want. To get rich, you have to be selling something. Which is a pretty big motivator for people.
Henry Turner
Why not just have the UBI people plant trees and do community work?
Nicholas Taylor
I didn't imply I would be in the spared ones, unfortunately, but it makes economic sense for our overlords like Jeff Bezos and Zuckerberg and the Google founders to do so.
Brody Long
Ah, it's another "Jow Forums does politics" thread
David Scott
>I promise you the elite have enough money to feed everyone and not notice the change in their bank accounts. It's probably true, but whey would/should they? All those millions/billions of people are on UBI would: waste water, food, other resource of the earth and they would pollute the waters and the atmosphere. It makes no sense to keep these people alive, even if you can.
>you need people to buy something you want. To get rich, you have to be selling something My argument is that you (the owner of a company) don't need money if your company is so advanced that it can produce/harvest/grow/plant/make/build/mine/manufacture/bake literally everything you could possibly ever ask for in your life. The concept of money will be deprecated.
Isaiah Baker
Because we already have drones that plant trees and they don't need food or UBI.
Justin Jackson
Automation my ass. It's the chinks who have stolen all our jobs. Look pic related. Do you recognize that city? Well I don't. Apparently it is Xianmen, and there are dozens of cities like this one all over China. Where do you think all that money has come from?
I think we are all awar that UBI is pointless and stupid. The idea that people with genetically low IQ will begin to behave like intelligent people once all basic needs are met has been thoroughly disproven by studies behavioral genetics in both humans and animals. The only people who vote for this kind of thing are Europeans, and Jow Forums is an American-only board, mainly because all technology is American, and even the Chinese stuff are just derrivatives of American designs. Eruopoors have about as much interest in technology as they do in working for a living.
Ethan Turner
>you don't want to pay for the lazy plebs to sit on ass all day? Don't forget, you have to pay for the socialized health care, too! Get to work! >actually used the word "holocaust"
Nice to see you guys make it off Jow Forums once in awhile too.
>UBI is pointless and stupid. UBI is neccessary once society reaches a certain level of efficiency and labour isn't needed anymore unless you want to be retarded and hold back the development of technology because of muh jobs
Ethan Anderson
>UBI is necessary once society reaches a certain level of efficiency and people aren't needed anymore >unless you want to be retarded and hold back the development of technology because of muh people
Nolan Williams
Unskilled factory jobs will be the first to be killed by automation, China is gonna implode.
Tyler Johnson
I'll concede to a universal basic income, but only if we kill everyone with a sub 110 IQ or anyone with major health problems
Connor Flores
jobs aren't people. People can exist in a fully automated society
Thomas Watson
And they survive...how? Oh, right, UBI. Handouts from the government.
Being a vassal to the government does seem like a great way to be a slave and still have all the totally awesome technobaubles that make life worth living.
UBI would only be necessary if the non-productive leeches are kept around for some reason. If, however, you got rid of the vast majority of the human population (either rapidly through purges or genetically engineered super-plagues, or over the course of a few generations via population control measures i.e. a strictly enforced single child policy) and only left the few productive people & corporate owners then you won't need a UBI. Again, why would the people who control all the world's means of production keep unrelated, non-productive people alive?
Anthony King
Yes being a slave to handouts is totally worse than being a slave to work, excellent point
David Martin
But you always get free stuff... even if you also work.
Kill low-IQ working class people who don't diversify their skillset.
Carson Parker
The entire concept is flawed. Extremely simplified: If all companies take in a total of $1000 and get taxed at 50% that's $500 to redistribute. The total amount companies can now take in is $500 and get taxed at 50% that's $250 to redistribute. Massive inflation where the economy completely collapses or the wealthy not letting that happen and reducing population, you're fucked.
Leo Taylor
how is that any better than giving them money what if society was so efficient it only need 1000, 100, 10 people to operate how boring would the world be with that many people
Bentley Davis
And why would they kill them? Not like it's a real burden on anyone to have machines to do everything menial and provide for us. Capitalism basically has to go at that point and people are going to have to find new ways to spend their lives.
Grayson Sullivan
But if you're a slave to work then you have the opportunity for advancement at least whether by merit, luck, cronyism, or nepotism. When you're a slave to handouts then you're at the mercy of the arbitrary decisions of who controls the handouts.
They're not killing themselves fast enough to control their population. India and Africa have some of the worst living and work conditions in the world but they're still breeding like rabbits.
Jeremiah Moore
UBI doesn't mean that's your fixed income. It means that's your fixed minimum income. An economy can still exist, you just won't starve if you don't have a job
Bentley Clark
Because the Earth has a finite amount of a lot of resources and it would be wasted on non-productive people. All those resources would last much longer if there was only 100 million or so people on the planet vs the over 11 billion people there are projected to be on the planet by 2100.
Michael Reyes
One can argue that there is no better use for resources than to support and improve human life.
Alexander Robinson
But you already don't starve if you don't have a job in Western countries. Welfare, food stamps, section 8 housing vouchers, medicaid, etc. It's already more economically viable for some people to make less money than more until they reach a certain point.
finite resources are only a result of finite technology Unless you're shooting everything off into space, resources are recyclable
Ryan Ward
in my first world country they force you to look for a job on the unemployment benefit, and it's barely enough to live off
Luke James
No, they'd just require more social services to keep their dying husks afloat in the tax river
Christopher Jones
Unemployment benefits in the US are tied to your previous job (typically you get 80% of your previous salary), they make you apply to several jobs a week, and it lasts for 2 years. Welfare on the other hand is different, there is no time limit to receiving welfare benefits. Other benefits (food stamps, housing assistance, etc) scale with income level as well and even if you make $0 and haven't worked or looked for a job in years you still qualify for it.
Adrian Walker
How could a machine create everything someone could ever want? Could a machine act in a play you wanted to see? Could a machine give you love and affection? Could a machine paint a scene? The answer to all of your questions is people. The human race has made it this far. More and more people living in the world has lead to more discovery. You get a bigger number of people, you get more people that want to create and share and entertain. Pretty sure the reason why technology has advanced so quickly in the past couple hundred years is because of medicine and a general lack of constant war brought the average life expectancy up.
So what it sounds like what you're asking is: why not just let everyone except the rich people - who have all the food and the technology and the weapons etc - die? Because that would set humanity back. It would be a lot lonlier. Unless you're a complete sociopath you would probably hate it. The whole thing sounds dystopian to me and pretty unrealistic.
Eli Stewart
Unless we have unlimited energy production via nuclear fusion or some other sci-fi technology then you end up hitting diminishing returns on recycling too where it costs more and more energy to recover and refine the materials and resources you require.
Owen Jackson
That's obviously a problem that needs to be solved, we're running out of fuel already
Landon Bell
>I'm not even going to mention the part that who the fuck would even work then. Holy fucking shit, Americans just get dumber by the day. The government must be putting something in your water, or chemtrails in the sky or something. How can you be *this* dumb?
Yes, OP, countries are implementing UBI because they don't want anyone to work. And the money will just fall from the sky.
>Thus the concept of money was born. No, money did not develop internally. Ot was used to trade between different tribes. 'Money' in the beginning took many forms, usually what the people valued, like cattle. There was an island tribe in the Pacific that used huge round stones that never moved, but were used to account for stuff.
>I'm thinking fully automated harvesters that produce crop, then mills it and even bakes bread, fully automated. Not possible. You stil need Humans to build, program and maintain the machines.
>The owners of this company >no money >but there are companies
>Why the fuck would they pay taxes to support the existence of millions of people via UBI? Taxes are paid on income, if there's no money where's the income coming from?
Why even have an 18+ rule when kids are allowed to post?
Landon Richardson
That fuel would last a lot longer if we had fewer people on the planet to provide for.
Bentley Wood
If the Spartans could live in a society where working and trade was considered vulgar and you'd leave those things to slaves then so can we. Except with machines.
Jacob Perez
Finding alternative power sources is much closer on the horizon than full automation sounds like you just don't like people and wish they were dead
Grayson Brown
user, if the Spartans were offered robots who could do everything that their slaves could, would never revolt, and needed zero creature comforts to remain productive then they would've killed off all their slaves overnight and used the robots instead.
Gabriel Hernandez
>Yes, OP, countries are implementing UBI because they don't want anyone to work. And the money will just fall from the sky.
Which countries have legit implemented UBI?
Kevin Collins
they did a trial run in finland
Nicholas Barnes
When the industrial revolution kicked off, the horse population too a steep dive, because they were unnecessary. Mind you that not everyone owned a horse, there was still mostly people stuck in cycles of poverty that didn't have horses, they hand no land to take care of them or grow food for them etc. When the average job is automated you think the extremely wealthy will keep poor and undecated people around just because? If paying for their food and housing was such a small and simple good grace we'd have it already. You think our lousy politicians will strong arm the 1% to supplement a basic income for people who serve zero purpose now except to breed, eat and die and circulate a wealth that was given to them? Our financial economy has no need for these people, artifical wealth is already generated and circulated to prop up the system.
Gabriel Butler
if the lower class has no jobs and is left to die they'll revolt against the upper class
Hudson Williams
involving 2000 people and it was scrapped only one year later. Switzerland put it on referendum and 77% were against it. PEOPLE DONT WANT IT.
Tyler Phillips
>how boring would the world be with that many people And a lot more efficient. Also you could just manufacture genetically engineered catgirls or whatever for your own personal use to keep yourself entertained.
Jason Reyes
Less normies
Aaron Campbell
>PEOPLE DONT WANT IT. people don't want free money? lol It's not a matter of if you want it, it's the economy reality of a world that's become to efficient to require everyone to work
Christopher Russell
>it's the economy reality of a world that's become to efficient to require everyone to work
it's a fanfic for people who read the Verge
Joseph Anderson
People are what entertain other people Case in point: You're posting on Jow Forums Everything you enjoy is a creation of the culture of other human beings
Adam Parker
Yeah but literally nothing of value is created by normies.
Connor Foster
I'll believe it when I see it. The middle class will cease to exist in our lifetime. Extreme poverty will be the new normality after decades of wage suppression and hyper inflation. There will just be a class of people kept in slums/section 9, given smallpox blankets or cancer ridden foods, and they'll die in a decade. They'll go out with a murmur.
Juan White
>Could a machine act in a play you wanted to see? Yes. >Could a machine give you love and affection? Yes >Could a machine paint a scene? Yes
Austin Ross
It's not related to Jow Forums at all. go back to Jow Forums and kys
Landon Baker
It's basic math dude Imagine a world that is 100% efficient as no need for human labour to produce anything You either leave people to die, give them hand outs, or you could force them to perform a meaningless task for their handouts so they feel like they've "earned their pay" (this happens all over society as it is)
Gabriel Allen
how you define a "normie" things of value are created by people in every area of life
Daniel Wood
>work is slavery Next, you'll say private property is theft.
>it's the economy reality of a world that's become to efficient to require everyone to work The logistics and automation systems would have to grow exponentially faster than the populace to maintain such a system. Infinite economic growth on steroids. There is only so much of the cake available. Why do you think in a world where you no longer serve a purpose you will be granted a life to live? Who in good faith can say this will be a working system?
Leo Bailey
No such thing as private property, it's just property that's being rented from the government via property taxes.
Luis Taylor
>Imagine a world that is 100% efficient
I can imagine that, doesn't mean it will happen, just like there is no 100% efficient market or a 100% efficient anything.
Alexander Murphy
>How could a machine create everything someone could ever want? How couldn't it? >Could a machine act in a play you wanted to see? Yes, we're already bringing back dead actors in Hollywood movies. AIs could just generate movies. >Could a machine give you love and affection? I guess, but it would be optimal to genetically engineer a gf and gave it birth via artificial wombs. >Could a machine paint a scene? You remember that scene in I, Robot where the robot asks this question to Will Smith's character?
>It would be a lot lonlier. I'm OP and I didn't mean you would kill literally everyone else on the planet. I said "tribe" specifically. So more than just you or your family. A couple thousand people, maybe a few millions.
James Sanders
>Not possible. You stil need Humans to build, program and maintain the machines. What? And machines couldn't build, program and maintain other machines, especially with artificial intelligence because...?
Jace Gonzalez
When I hear Jow Forums talk about politics and economics I suddenly realize I shouldn't be taking their advice about anything ever, including technology.
Cooper Allen
That's assuming population growth slows down
The point is that automation efficiency is going to grow closer to that point, and eventually the need for human labour will be smaller than the human population
Carson Reyes
You shouldn't be taking anyone's advice on 4chins seriously, desu senpai
John Mitchell
Because what's the point? Technology for technology's sake? Machines making machines to...make more machines, better?
Leo Davis
Why would population growth slow down? Even now poor and undecated people that live on handouts out reproduce everyone else. Will you enforce some eugenics platform to suppress growth to managable levels? Would people vote for it? Or would the extremely wealthy construct it and enforce it?
Ryan Russell
The way I see it you have two choices: 1-Follow the path of knowledge, and implement ubi with learning constraints, meaning you have to produce knowledge, especially with true ai's/asi's, the amount of knowledge you would be able to produce/data you could analyze is incomparable to nowadays 2-Continue to be hedonistic and in this case eliminating the 99% would be best option for humanity given that they would be unnecessary and useless I think the second path is the best option, but I highly doubt it, try making a normie understand that all he feels just quimical reactions that have no meaning, the only thing that exists is information, so the only thing that can matter is knowledge and abandon his stupid animinalistic life/habits, sadly what is most likely to happen is the second option
Inb4 tldr Abandon everything that doesn't produce knowledge or face death
Benjamin Roberts
>You either leave people to die, give them hand outs And the 1% will chose the latter because?
Christian Morales
Because humans understand purpose, something machines don't.
Anthony Garcia
This is just some autist that got laughed out of some other board like Jow Forums or /sci/
Jack Richardson
>Why the fuck would they pay taxes to support the existence of millions of people via UBI? To avoid getting fucking murdered by the government. The same reason I begrudgingly pay taxes now.
Kayden Clark
So, a bunch of humans plugged into their computers, completing captchas for 8 hours a day to earn their breadcrumbs from the government? And that sounds good to you?
Who do you even work for, really? It must be a fascinating place.
How do you know that? We don't have actual AI yet to base you assumption on.
Brody Martin
I think you are just glorifying AI. It's still profoundly stupid like all machines are. It's already a poor replacement for a translator. I don't see it becoming as flexible and adaptive as the human mind. I think AI's margin for work is slim.
So if the rich 1% holocaust the masses how will they continue wealth creation? There won't be billions of retards to buy products to make them rich. It would literally be self defeating.
Ubi sucks though because with out labor value the poor have no bargaining power or any real buying power. Automation is gonna fuck us so hard lol.
In true human fashion no one is really thinking big picture. Basically once Capitalism reaches late stage where its UBI or genocide it'll collapse any way because their will literally be no one able to participate on the market.
Levi Long
The wealthier people are, the less they breed
Austin Ross
Money is not wealth. Money represents and allows for the easy exchange of wealth. A person who needs UBI to live does not create wealth, which is why they are not paid money, which is why they need UBI. Automation allows for the rich to create wealth without anyone else. They don't need a market to sell to if they don't need to buy anything either. It's like saying sucking your own dick is self defeating because now you get no blowjobs. The blowjobs (poor consumers) are no longer necessary for you to bust a nut (produce wealth).
Isaiah Brooks
Oops, borked the analogy. Poor consumers are sluts, blowjobs are their money.
