I tried to have a discussion about systemic racism in coding...

I tried to have a discussion about systemic racism in coding, and how we can increase minority participation on software engineering. But the mods deleted the thread! Are the mods racist?

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Other urls found in this thread:

time.com/4839592/anti-semitism-lgbtq-pride/
mosaicmagazine.com/picks/2018/06/black-lives-matter-has-an-israel-problem/
economist.com/business/2018/02/17/ten-years-on-from-norways-quota-for-women-on-corporate-boards
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paki_(slur)
twitter.com/SFWRedditImages

Yes.

What are the benefits of forcefully inducing unskilled and unwilling workers into a field, and why do they outweigh the utilitarian detriments of such infusion?

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It helps reverse decades of oppression. News flash: this country literally enslaved people.

>this country
Protip: Jow Forums is an international board. If you want to discuss politics (that are only relevant to one of the many nations posting here), I suggest going to the board for discussing politics

What country do you live in?

Norway

Jews literally -still- enslave people, but you won't talk about that huh.

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>Jews literally -still- enslave people, but you won't talk about that huh.
Actually, the black lives matters movement has frequently been criticised for being anti-jewish.

time.com/4839592/anti-semitism-lgbtq-pride/
mosaicmagazine.com/picks/2018/06/black-lives-matter-has-an-israel-problem/

Which is the only thing they got right thus far.

Not according to the conservative right.

elaborate, how does inducing unskilled and unwilling workers into a field help reverse a cultural paradigm that hasn't existed in the same timespan as said field? Sidenote, every country enslaved people at one point or another, moot/irrelevant point, sins of the father fallacy, etc..

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If you think racism ended with Lincoln, you need to go back to school.

And despite systemic racism, blacks still invent a lot of things (refrigerators, air conditioning, traffic lights, super soaker, peanut butter, the list goes on). The system is meant to hold blacks down, and we need to subvert that oppression.

The thing is, Jow Forums can complain all it wants about "muh agenda", big companies are still pushing inclusion, which makes me think it should be profitable, even outside of a simple PR standpoint. Has there been good, objective research done regarding the effects of inclusion policies, especially in high-skill fields?

>every country enslaved people at one point or another
Norwayfag here, the difference is that the US was segregated and treated black people as inferior beings systematically until 50-60 years ago, while the last time Norway systematically enslaved people was some time in the 9th century.

No thanks.

Show empirical examples of an individual, I'll allow whites as well, who is unable to progress because of physical restrictions placed on them by the state, and not via their own actions or inaction, such as breaking laws, poor wealth management, or simply choosing to do nothing.

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>socioeconomic status is merely caused by your own poor wealth management and laziness
Yes, good goy. Poor people only choose to be poor. They're lazy sobs that deserve to be trampled on.

Myself. Forced into underfunded schools, harassed by cops just for the color of my skin, and state-sponsored racism in hiring.

...

Well not just lazy. Usually they're stupid too.

That's because they choose to though. They can simply decide to be smart and do something about it, pull themselves up by their own bootstraps, you know?

Fuck poor people. They're lazy scums.

Intentionally taking the b8 here, I'd like to have a genuine discussion on the topic.

I've always seen this situation as one where two reasonable camps are put at war with each other by a small base of obnoxious loudmouths on each side.

>inb4 "I'm happy there are no stupid people on Jow Forums"

The causes of the poverty / lack of skills of minorities may be unfair, but do not change the fact that they might still be unskilled and unfit for high-end intellectual work. The question being whether or not forcing their integration - sometimes at the expense of the field itself - would solve the problem on the long term.

>The causes of the poverty / lack of skills of minorities may be unfair, but do not change the fact that they might still be unskilled and unfit for high-end intellectual work. The
Obviously. I'm not saying I agree with affirmative action, but the point of them is to give an equal chance.

>The question being whether or not forcing their integration - sometimes at the expense of the field itself - would solve the problem on the long term.
In the short term, it's definitively negative. No one is seriously questioning this (you can find loud-mouthed progressive SJWs that will scream nonsense of course, but no one worth listening to is seriously saying otherwise).

The long-term effect is uncertain. We have had varying experience with gender quotas in Norway. Speaking solely about education here, for some fields (such as medicine and law), there has been quite positive long term effects, but for others (technology and engineering), quotas seem to have minimal lasting effects.

But then again, women aren't really a minority in the same sense black people are in the US. We're still quite homogeneous, while the US is really, really diverse and have a bunch of racial tensions that we don't here.

>”dear black people, even though it’s our fault, we need to keep you disadvantaged. Otherwise it’s be kinda inconvenient for us whites. Thoughts and prayers. T. Karen and Becky and Dylan”

Not him, I'm the Norwayfag. But just a suggestion: Instead of arguing from a sense of entitlement to reparations and/or a zero-sum game between races, try looking at it from an utilitarian perspective. It's much more productive if you want to have a serious discussion about the topic.

>coding

But OP, those are computers in your pic. We have many black computers today. In fact it is probably the most popular case color.

>black, tied up to your desk (with cables), and obeying your command and forced to accept your input
Based black computers

confirmation bias, also that's not empirical evidence, gather video, audio, even text proof, things that are tangible and not based on emotion. work it down to a science, the idea here is to prove that it's true and not just attempts to fish for attention/benefits.

same as above but even less coherent argument

Nice, me too. My main argument against forceful inclusion campaigns is based primarily on my own experiences in the SE field and not on large scale test data. I don't have an issue with people of different genders/skin color/whatever entering a field, in fact i would very much like to see more girls/women take interest in engineering and STEM in general because it's been a sausage fest. My problem is when large scale PR agendas lower the entry bar to certain groups of people, allowing for lower skilled, and unwilling laborers to enter the field just for the credit. Also I am kind of upset how it always turns into black vs white, kind of pushes out any opportunity for intelligent discussion? is that an american thing?

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>”you live under oppression, but you need to be reasonable and think about how you may be inconvencing the oppressor. Please don’t rock the boat.”

I’d like to point out “don’t rock the boat” was a chant the slaverunners eould use on slave ships in order to prevent slaves fighting for freedom.

you know what the problem is? when you start hiring based on diversity quotas, you soon find out that the quality of work suffers because trying to force minorities into positions of critical importance, in this instance developers, makes the company as a whole suffer due to inadequate product. when a company develops nothing but inadequate products, they tend not to sell enough to generate enough revenue to keep their shareholders happy, in the case of publicly traded companies, or to keep the doors open, in the case of private companies, which makes everyone in the company suffer because things like payroll, rent, bills can't be met which typically forces an exodus of the skilled employees. you also face the issue of said minorities leaving the company based entirely on the fact that its "not black enough" in the recent case of Facebook, which opens the company up to scrutiny over something as trivial as the racial makeup of the company. the problem also is that there aren't enough skilled minorities to develop product to meet the demand.

tl;dr hiring based on skin color is the dumbest fucking idea a company can do unless they mitigate the risk that comes with it by stockpiling enough skilled workers to overcome the poor decision they made

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>complains about lack of empirical evidence
>proceeds to discuss his anecdotal experiences and even admit that he has no experience with minorities

Fuck off numale

Interesting. Got any sources regarding the long-lasting effects? Not refuting your point, just genuinely curious.

Africa is still enslaving people even though white people abolished it decades ago, why don't niggers cry about that?
Or is black on black slaving okay?

I didn't say anything about not inconveniencing the oppressor, I literally pointed out that you should aim to be pragmatic. White people are never going to apologise for slavery and make up for it, so you might as well accept that and try to make the best of the current situation even though you are wronged. Be pragmatic, you're not going to get anything done unless you compromise.

>inb4 b-b-b-but that isn't fair
Life isn't fair

>Got any sources regarding the long-lasting effects?
Do you read Norwegian? If no, it might take some more time to find.

Because they're not Africans, they're Americans? The same reason I don't give two shits why Russians kills faggots, even though they're white and I'm white.

Norway is really good at minority inclusion.

stop thinking everyone is american

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Burden of proof, I didn't state anything about my initial statement as empirical or the truth and simply wanted to foster discussion of the initial OPs point because i found it confusing. Which means OP needs to defend the point and answer my question before a discussion can begin. Furthermore, my anecdotal experience actually aligns with OPs point, so I'm not sure where you're going with that. I also based my post on experience working with the government of Canada which is ~80% minorities

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Are Russians white?

Because double jeopardy: the slavers are blacks from actual africa, muslims and live in impoverished countries.

Can't outvictim that! So who could possibly be underprivileged enough to have the right to criticise their lifestyle? Well, their slaves obviously, but they probably don't have blogs on tumblr.

Not really, we have a bunch of integration/assimilation issues, especially with somalis and pakis communities.

>pakis
Thanks for outing yourself as a racist. Go back to Jow Forums

I couldn't find any regarding education in english, but here's one regarding female leaders (Norway has a bunch of companies where the government is a significant shareholder, so the government can dictate who gets to sit on the board).

This is an example of how quotas for leaders has had minimal impact (for good or for worse): economist.com/business/2018/02/17/ten-years-on-from-norways-quota-for-women-on-corporate-boards

What the fuck?

In Britbongistan 'Paki' is a racist slur

I'm not British, it's simply an abbreviation of Pakistanis. Like somalis instead of Somalians.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paki_(slur)

So why does this always devolve into black vs white, that's not even the most prevalent "minority" in STEM? Also why do people never provide proof of their statements and always just greentext away valid comments? Do people just generally not give a fuck?

That's what I assumed and why I explained it to you. I'm another user.

>The slur is used chiefly in the United Kingdom
So why would he assume everyone is british? That's equally retarded as OP assuming everyone ITT are american.

Thanks, user. I appreciate it.

Because he probably doesn't know it's different in other countries. Like when Americans use the term 'liberal'.

Chiefly =/= Exclusively

>muh peanut butter
This meme again?
What next, Egyptians were black? We wuz kangz?
Is this the level of uni education now? When you feel so insignificant and insecure you resort to “activism” and “sociopolitical profiles”. I hate this timeline.

>Like when Americans use the term 'liberal'.
That one always cracks me up. Until Jow Forums leaked everywhere and forced their silly memes on everyone, I used to get superconfused by people talking about American politics, where liberal means left-wing, libertarianism is right-wing etc.

Y'all in a b8 thread

I've never heard anyone in my entire life use "Paki" as a slur for Pakistani people. In fact, Pakistani people here refer to themselves and their own culture as Paki and even Pakistani restaurants label themselves as "paki food" or "paki cuisine" (it's more common than indian cuisine)

>they use the word, why can’t I!? Reverse racism!
Check out Boomer Becky over here.

my dick is hard my balls are blue,
if you can do it i can too!

N I G G E R
I
G
G
E
R

>banning certain words
Orwellian nightmare detected

Also, I'm pretty sure if you put up signs reading "nigger cuisine takeout / delivery" it would be socially acceptable to say "hey, wanna go for some nigger food today?"

But yet its still ok for this day and age for Africans to enslave Africans just like Africans selling Africans into slavery for all of history? A country without blacks has no reason to call out other countries on slavery

>But yet its still ok for this day and age for Africans to enslave Africans
No. Nobody claims this.

>A country without blacks has no reason to call out other countries on slavery
Because only blacks can be enslaved? Are you fucking kidding me?

And why shouldn't we? Slavery is wrong and should be called out, regardless if the country you're from has had slavery or not.

unironically based, have a cute gif

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> It's another reddit tries to fit in episode

Blacks actually did better during segregation than after it was abolished. They are incapable of coexisting with other races without falling behind. At least when they're segregated, they don't have to compete with non-blacks.

>baaawwwwww people are discussing a sensitive topic as grown ups instead of throwing childish or racist tantrums like they do on Jow Forums
>reeeeeeeeee reddit leave!!!!!!!!
Grow up.

Not technology faggot

Listen I like black pussy as much as any white Jow Forumsentoomen of taste. We all want qt3.14 African gfs to install linux with... but we don't spam the board with it because its off topic.

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You don't belong here, and your opinions are shit. Unironically kill yourself

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Most minorities aren’t interested in computer shit. They just care about their image on social media. Why force them to do things they don’t like?

I seriously doubt that they "fell behind", as you are implying, since they didn't exactly start out on equal footing.

Regardless, while there may be some merit to the claim that they didn't compare to non-blacks, I would argue from a purely liberal (as in liberty) stand point that they're better off without any artificial restrictions imposed on them (just like businesses tend to do better without government regulations and the government interfering with the open market). People should be treated according to their merits, not according to their race.

i do not think that is the question to be asked. who assumes the only ethnic people hired are unskilled and unqualified? Hidden figures was a movie that shows even intelligent black women were oppressed.

This is Jow Forums, you cockmongling little faggot. If you're upset about the lack of racism on a fucking tech board, then fuck off back to /b/ or Jow Forums where you belong.

>Actually, the black lives matters movement has frequently been criticised for being anti-jewish.
That's because the black community is hilariously racist, anti-semitic, and homophobic.

That's an amazing level of delusion, I'm 'upset about the lack of racism' I'm calling you a faggot for your terrible posts and literal reeing

No shit. It's been hijacked by people who unironically want to implement segregation (only with blacks on top instead of whites).

literally kill yourself.

The only person reeing here is you, bitching about reddit on 4chins.

If you think that its been "hijacked" and that wasn't a pervasive idea since the beginning you're fucking delusional

S E E T H I N G
Be honest user, is your wife just giving you computer time because she wants to fuck Tyrone?

I think it sincerely started out as a protest movement for police brutality. It evolved quite early, yes, but that's what I mean by hijacked.

I recommend listening to Brett Weinstein talking about the subject.

>how does inducing unskilled and unwilling workers into a field help reverse a cultural paradigm that hasn't existed in the same timespan as said field?
This is kind of the heart of the problem. I believe that anyone who applies themselves and puts the effort in can be very successful, a few outliers aside. The issue is that there just aren't enough women, blacks, or hispanics who want to get into technology in a serious way. It just doesn't appeal to them. It's perceived as too nerdy or acting white or whatever issue a group has that discourages them from wanting to do it. You can scream diversity all day long; it doesn't matter as long as there aren't many skilled and motivated minorities looking to get into it.

how about you two fuck and makeup since youre both fags

>forcefully inducing
>unskilled
>unwilling

wew that's a lot of prejudice.

>straight to fantasising about cuck porn
lol.. It's really inevitable with you faggots, isn't it?

Look, it's extremely obvious that you're new here. I'm going to give you some heartfelt advice. Lurk moar faggot

Ok retard. Continue to get nothing done except make yourself more miserable and resentful with your persecution complex. The rest of the world will continue to move on, further leaving you to rot. Nobody owes you shit. Sink or swim faggot.

The only thing extremely obvious here is that you're literally 12. Get lost, kid.

If you weren't so pathetic you'd almost be kind of entertaining.

Literally seething

> Look mom! I copied his insult!
> I'm bantering!

if you have a project that literally says, "if you're part of a group that we deem a minority, we will fast track your applications" then the people who will get preferential treatment actually WILL be minorities as in both ethnic and gender groups. Now if you look at the job market in this sector suddenly you have a much easier entry point for minorities, which in itself is fine, w/e i don't give a shit if the STEM field is 100% black or whatever the victim of the week for you people is.

The issue is that when you open the floodgates EVERYONE comes through. And STEM is a top 5% field, you NEED to be good at what you do but more importantly you need to be interested enough in what you do to spur yourself to improve continuously. If your only incentive for this is easy money, chances are you are uninterested, and that's the part i have a problem with.

tl;dr arbitrary qualities such as skin color are irrelevant, individuals should be judged on an individual basis and this kind of PR program shits on that concept as a whole.

ITT: 12 year olds calling 12 year olds 12 year olds

> Call OP reddit
> OP spergs the fuck out
How does that make me 12?

>posting in an obvious bait thread and showing your butthurt over and over again, pretending to be edgy on an anonymous taiwanese tapestry forum
>not being 12
Pick one (1)

Neither, I think OP is sincerely retarded

Protip: The guy you have been responding to is not OP. You’d have to be fucking delusional to think that OP stayed for more than the first few posts, seeing how we’ve had the same thread for the last few hours now and it pops up whenever mods delete it.

OP, a lot of the problem isn't even hiring policies, but societal attitudes towards minorities and the disinfranchised that provide a downward bias towards social mobility. Greater upward mobility results in emotional and economic stability that translate to better education and higher achivement as a group on average. However it is statistically shown that in the u.s. minorities, specially blacks, have a fractional advantage compared to whites even when holding for things like class and education. This means that there is still a systematic bias problem that many, specially trump chumping types, will refuse to acknowledge and even deliberately reinforce.

Aiding positive social actions doesn't require trillion dollar packages run by a team of PhDs, just acknowledging the existing wrongs, personal biases, and acting in good faith towards all regardless of background. But until you have people, like some in this site and in right wing parties, that refuse to acknowledge these problems, they will conviniently ignore the issue and blame the victim like as to maintain the statua quo.

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