Empty pcb space is WRONG

Why do big GPU cards and atx mobo still exist?

There is literally no reason for a GPU PCB to be longer than 17cm or a mono to be larger than itx the only reason they make larger PCB is people think bigger is better value

I can see the argument for GPU that it allows larger cooler but you could still have small PCB and cooler overhang

It makes me sad people buying boards with 50% of the PCB empty is a sign of human regression and death of advancement in the industry

PCB space used to be valuable :'(

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Counterpoint: having a bigger pcb means lanes can be further apart from each other, slightly reducing the chance of a board being DOA. also cooling but who cares

So you can put a GPU inside without it blocking 2 other PCIe slots

big card = big power
that's why you find cards with shrouds that extend past where the pcb ends, it's all to do with marketing

You are right fellow disabled person.

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Dude, you appear to be telling everyone that your willy is smaller than a macdonalds french fry with a walnut glued to it

Dumb people think they will SLI one day or need 4 nvme yet they fail to realise you can sli with a single 16x port with bitfucation adapter and pcie cables and that nvme is a laptop meme that doesn't belong in destops and a new sata style thing will be out soon

Even itx is excessively large now and there are two sizes smaller than it and sbc stuff that's fast enough for 99% of users and even 99% of games other than bf5 or pro csgo or some thing where you want 500fps

I'm fairly sure I'm building my last computer and the thing I'll have after it will resemble a console (but I'll run own OS etc on it)

Soon we will reach the point that monitors are limiting gaming not processing hardware and building a custom rig will only give you like a 5ms advantage and run it at 500fps while ya prebuilt apu soc single board thing will run at 250fps

No way am I cutting up my hands and screwing shit together for 5ms atm PC are like 80ms faster than apu consoles and making ya pc faster than others can make it 25-50ms faster than a potato or onboard PC but APIs will improve in next 5 years and by 2025 IMO building PC will be pointless and apu small prebuilt shit will be only like 5ms behind some prebuilt beast and the real limiting factor will be affording a 480hz screen or 1000hz VR set

I wager 98% of even hardcore PC users never install a pcie card other than a single GPU for entire life of system until its so slow its worth -10$ for the coat of trashing it

Even if I did have a huge dick I still wouldn't want empty pcb it doesn't make ya system look powerful it makes it look like some hand made kit science project you painted stripes over

if you need a cooler with footprint of a half od itx board to cool a fucking CPU why does board size even bother anyone?
Also mobile versions of cpus/gpus are generally not up to performance as desktop counterparts and aren't designed to be ran all day for many years, also noise is the issue, if you cool a 1080 with a fucking macbook size blower fan you can't game without headphones. And i'd gladly sacrifice that useles space under my desk or near some shelf or whatever in return of low noise.

Everyone that actually works on computer all day with demanding tasks as video editing, rendering 3d stuff, cad, etc. will agree. You can't run a fucking laptop size cooler on a pc that works 24/7 heavy load.

stx+mxm is the future of personal desktops

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fuck having updated display standards I guess

Pic related is adequate air cooling for a delidded Intel CPU > 5GHz. Needs some space!

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What is this cooler called?

The pic here is a GTX 1080 with an adequate triple slot air cooling solution. This also needs some space in the case.

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Just watercool lmao

yeah, cause that's cheap and reliable

Jow Forumsminiitx called, they want you back.

There is absolutely no reason for that cooler on that gpu. The performance gained would be less than slapping a 120mm AIO on it, and still not enough to be worth while.

What's with all the fags wanting to deprive us of features and performance based on the claim that "you don't really need it"? Presumably because they don't think they need it. I'd rather have it even if I wind up not using it because a larger machine is easier to work on and an extra cubic foot of volume in my room used is unnoticeably trivial. If you're so obsessed with everything being tiny and are satisfied with low-end specs, buy a laptop.

Who cares, there's a market for it, why do you even feel sad, human regression? death of advancement? holy shit man get a grip!

HUEG air cooling with THICC heatpipes performs better than any AIO. Many, many tests have proven it.

mxm was already a failure once

Not OP, but how are you gonna feel when the small form factor "low end" pcs are roughly equivalent to gigantic power guzzling space heaters from last year? I currently have a full custom looped system and whatnot, but I honestly at this point find the concept of small form factor and passive cooling far more interesting. Not saying you should also chase after it, just curious your thoughts on the prospect of a 65w zen2 part matching the floating point multithreaded performance of a 140w 9900k.

Is that why the morpheus ii (better than any provided air cooler) is often referred to as being "equivalent to a 240mm aio"? Which, by the way, is using fucking 25mm thick fans.

closed loop water coolers are snake oil & made by cia niggers

I understand why big GPUs exist. High end GPUs can exceed even 300W during gaming loads. It gets hot but also very noisy. Decent GPU cooling is like 3 slots thick.

But I do hate big ass boards with a single GPU installed and one hard drive, what's the fucking point even, people don't use 70% of the slots/connectors and think they'll need them in the future (they won't).

Why do zero companies comply with ops standard of thinking?
There are too many different types of compatibilities and not enough modulation/optimization of sizes.
Sure ram is good cuz u can put a bunch in one place next to each other. But what about gpus? You can just stack them next to each other and no companies are putting multiple gpus on a single pcb. Computers should be produced small and efficient and take up no space. Or you can go eith the latter viewpoint and say they should have options and be boxy.

Big boards often have beefier power delivery circuitry for the CPU, which is pretty much mandatory for high-end CPUs nowadays. Especially if you want to overclock.

Based schitzo poster

HDMI 2.1 was announced in 2017. They have only just announced new TVs this year with the updated specs at CES in ultra expensive 8k TVs.

>I can see the argument for GPU
have you ever seen a gpu with your own eye? the space is needed for memory chips, the VEGA PCB is >1/3 shorter than the cooler
Mainboards are not empty, they are starved for space
these pcbs have more than 10 layers ffs

Good power delivery is not exclusive to big boards. Although there were a couple of ATX boards with EXTREME overkill VRMs that couldn't be possible on ITX dimensions. I'm talking overkill even for LN2 levels.
There were plently of high end mATX boards throughout the years with great VRM. Hell there were even ITX mobos with daughterboards with beefy power delivery.
I've had a personal experience with the new ATX """high end""" Maximus board that turned out to have shitty VRM. An Asrock ITX board had better VRM layout and decent enough heatsink with heatpipes on top of it.

ATX boards have become a meme ridden with plastic gaming logos and RGB leds.

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HDMi 2.1 is also going down to 4k sets for true 4k@120hz
Lots of current midrange 4k TVs have 120hz panels but are limited to 60hz by HDMI 2.0,
HDMI 2.1 will go down to those 120hz TV sets

You can argue about how necessary they are but ATX motherboards objectively have more feature support than ITX, most notably the RAM and SATA ports.

>just curious your thoughts on the prospect of a 65w zen2 part matching the floating point multithreaded performance of a 140w 9900k.
well one, I could say great, I only need to cool 65 watts instead of 140+. But if I have extra space in my case, I can do that more quietly - larger fans, less-obstructed airflow, and so on. Or two, I could say great, now I have the thermal headroom to get a 12 or 16-core Zen 2 (which will presumably have higher TDPs) instead of the 65-watt one. In other words I keep the cooling capacity, and the physical volume that makes it convenient to get, and get more CPU for it. Which I don't "need" per se, but which I would definitely like. My 6c/12t X5670 definitely takes a while doing things like chewing on large RAW photos.

There's also just the matter of a large case being easier to work on and maintain. Or rearrange or upgrade. Even if things stop advancing entirely - which I doubt - I'll still need to occasionally dist the thing out, add a drive for more space, replace a fan that's making that "I blew out a bearing" noise, etc.

Even if these are minor advantages, I consider that I might as well have them, because what would I really get out of the space-savings of a small form factor system?

but you don't need more than 32gb of RAM and 2 sata devices, what kinda freak would need all that?
Just shut up and pay more for less

Don't forget that you either have to buy that 32GB up front or cripple your performance until you do.

>Autism: The Thread

How many people (we're talking general consumers here) have more than 16 gigs of RAM, how many have 32?
How many people need more than 4 SATA + 2 NVMe slots?

That's ITX slots, you'd have a fuckton more on mATX board, and 64 gigs of RAM. Tell me the percentage of people that have 64 gigs of RAM today.

>I personally don't have need of thing!
>Therefore no one needs these things!
Fuck off faggot. Some of us completely fill out RAM slots. Keep your premium priced mITX garbage.

How much RAM do you have and what kind of work do you do on your PC?

Honestly what good will come out of making people use ITX boards?
Because to be honest I don't see how making ITX the norm will really improve anything

And when 16 isn't enough you get the privilege of throwing it away because you can't add two more sticks.

32GB. Video editing, a lot of encoding, and multiple VM's when not doing the other 2. I only have 32GB because at the time of purchase, 16GB modules were uncommon, otherwise I'd have 64GB.

Fair enough, Those are solid arguements. Even though I personally think mATX is better for the vast majority of people on mainstream platforms, unfortunately for a variety of reasons people have pretty much voted mATX out of being a quality product. I just wanted an opinion from someone who seemed adamant on sticking to the atx form factor.

to be fair, with DDR4 and soon DDR5 offering higher capacity modules, it won't be uncommon to be able to have 64GB RAM in an mITX build. 16GB modules are rather common now.

You're missing the point, I'm not shilling ITX specifically. I'm just saying that even the tiny ITX format has more slots than 95% of people will ever populate (1 GPU, 2 sticks, 6 storage connectors).

ATX boards are a waste of space, material and a "big powerful gaymen PC" gimmick in most of the situations.

I personally like that fact that with full ATX I don't have to measure for CPU cooler clearance. Or GPU length. Or am I going to have to buy 2.5" HDDs rather than 3.5"?

You get the 32 gig kit and sell your 16gig kit?


So you're saying you only require 2 RAM slots?

CPU clearance for the board or the case?
The GPU length and storage options depend on the case of course.

>Would get 64GB had 16GB modules been available at the time
>"So you're saying you only need 2 slots?"
Are you mentally slow? Do you go food shopping for a single meal multiple times a day because having groceries taking up room in the fridge annoys you?
>CPU clearance for the board or the case?
Case. Many cases can't fit some of the top end air coolers. Not only that but any of the mITX cases that can fit them are as large as mATX so why bother? If I'm building mITX, I want as small as that N-case or Fractal node 202. Otherwise why fucking bother?

Well you have 32 gigs which is possible with 2 slots and by the time you upgrade to 64 you planned before, 32gb sticks will be widespread.

>case
Now you're talking about tiniest cases available and want to pack the same type of cooling inside.
There will always be some compromises with those tiny boxes but there are bigger cases that can take a NH-D15 and still be less than half the size of a mid tower.
NCase is much smaller than those big ITX cases and even takes a 240mm AIO and a 3 slot GPU.
The problem is ATX is still the standard, if it weren't there'd be much more innovation in small form factor PCs so that's why some compromises still have to be made.

OP and I are not telling people here to make the switch, we're merely discussing how ATX is an outdated standard and how much performance you can pack in a small box.

I dont want some puny little mobo with a tiny little case. Eventually all you will finish up with in 20 years time is a very very powerful cell phone with gayming capabilities but nobody with more than two brain cells using them
jeezus its fucking ridiculous.I dont want to finish up with a computer inside a monitor I want a computer and a monitor and I want them both to be large enough to work on when they go wrong, no specialist tools needed and so that I dont have to pay some spotty twat every time i replace the hard drive

Fixing your own shit is only free if your time is worthless

t.hobbiless wagecuck

Its literally harder, more drama and more time consuming to find somewhere that will fix and replace my stuff prove me wrong

You realise all modern GPU 70% of pcb is empty

I fail to see how this PCB is in anyway empty

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That's a titain and nvidia put excessive stuff on pcb because they use their quadro compute pcb for that and don't put stuff on back

Look at the board partner 2080tis there is more than 50% empty

Don't you think if they wanted to make the PCB smaller they would've?
The 2060 has such a short PCB that they have wires going to the PCIe power connector, they would have done the same with the 2080 TI if it was possible

lmao why tf is the vega nano so large it literally needs to be smaller there's like literally easily 30% unused space hurr durr

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I'd like to see your bullshit work with a guy using vms. That's how Microsoft is pushing it now. Get with the times.

Nice triple dubs my dude

no you idiot look at a 2080/2080ti reference pcb its like 60% empty then look at 3rd party pcbs they are even more empty 2080ti uses same core as a titian the reason that titian pcb is so full is it has timing modulation and 100% reliability parts added on because its using the Quadro pcb.

not even cutting edge graphics need a full pcb but quadros need it because they have sync and all this extra shit so they have a 0% failure rate when powering superbowl TVs and shit. people don't just use quadros in workstations they are used in displays at airports and shit and made to never crash or go out of sync with weird ass displays.

the new dell alienware laptop has a better solution, the vga outs are directly on the "mxm" card so they're always up to date

I'll wager you're wrong. I installed 2 GPUs to do the PCI passthrough thing with KVM. Now I don't have any additional non blocked slots to install a USB controller to pass through since per USB device forwarding is ass, or a 10 gbit ethernet card because the motherboard only comes with 1 gbit. I also wouldn't mind more than the 1 USB C port on the motherboard.

ITX dicklets are upset because their shitty, console heatboxes aren't mainstream so they have to pay more for less. That's the only reason for these ITX shill threads.

this is why I want threadripper
all those lanes...

99.99% of people don't know what a KVM is.

if you think hardcore PC user means some Linux freak you are wrong

hardcore PC user means some dude that does intensive stuff or games and only knows basic windows shit and maybe regedit.

Link?

don't remember, saw it on a CES video

>what is a pcie wifi adapter

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add a Prolimatech SAMUEL 17 and one of the half length gpus to that
then put an ATX or FSX psu fan down above the CPU
to make the thermal g4 cube

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AMD really need to just shove an 8 core ryzen and vega64 with shared 16gb HBM on an interposer. With no RAM or 16x pcie traces the PCB should be very simple. Also 48v to 1v GaN VRMs, potentially you could even mount them on the interposer. Due to the reduced production and PCB costs the price should be significantly lower than a conventional system.

that would be a thicc interposer
I like it

>Lets make PCs like the trashcan mac so everything thermal throttles!
Fuck off macfag.
If you want shit 'small' and 'efficient use of space' then buy the trashcan mac already.

I can't believe on package VRMs aren't common when there has been off the shelf parts to do it for a while now. Huge resistive losses and heat from sending 200A through PCB, LGA and BGA is not ideal.

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Intel did on-die VRMs, they're bad because they increase noise to intolerable levels.
On package would be just as bad.

ITT
retards who have no idea what a circuit board trace is

Hes been running a 9900k and 2070 passive with no Fans without thermal throttling. Could probably use a 2080 with the single 140mm

I thought they made the PCB this size because the cooler has to be big as well.

No point in making a small card if the cooler will be way larger.

Alltough the first amd hbm cards did this.

I've got a bridge to sell you...

>putting intel cpu in a water pool
like a fucking nuclear rod lmao

> is people think bigger is better value
I know it's stupid, but holding my Vega card, feeling the weight, and the simple: damn, it's so b-big, makes my boypussy wet.

The reason the trash can flunked is that Apple would have to redo most of its custom board design every time they updated it (hence why they never did). That design solves it by simply having the case/cooling be the only custom part in the build.

>VMs
>Passing through GPUs
>Passing through USB controllers
Don't you understand that 99.99% of PC users don't know what those terms even mean?
We're talking about basic consumers here and you're sperging about some bleeding edge tech bullshit.

There would still be a place for ATX format even if much smaller boards were the standard.

I'm mostly one of those retards and have a gpu, wireless card, and a USB card installed

the whole "normies don't care, everything you need is integrated" argument carries more weight when you're talking about prebuilts - you know the kind of PC a normie would have if he bothers having a desktop at all. Less so when you're on a board full of people who build their own machines. The gaymen crowd cares about big GPU coolers and VRMs and airflow and overclocking (which favors an ATX mobo++case), the Linux crowd cares about the ability to pick their own hardware - if they need a wi-fi card they'd rather have a PCI-E one so they know what chipset they're getting, because whatever the mobo maker picked might either not work at all or might need a nonfree driver, and so on. And this is the crowd that DOES do that shit with VMs and so on.

In other words there's every reason for a $400 Dell business box to not be ATX, and lo and behold most aren't. There's still plenty of reasons for the type of person who builds their own machine to use ATX.

>you know the kind of PC a normie would have if he bothers having a desktop at all. Less so when you're on a board full of people who build their own machines.
Yes, I agree. That's my entire point. ATX would still exist but the normie market would move towards space efficiency.

>big GPU coolers
>airflow and overclocking
Not an issue unless literal smaller than shoe box case

>VRMs
Not an issue, it's just that small boards are slightly neglected by manufacturers because it's still a small market.

>Linux crowd cares about the ability to pick their own hardware - if they need a wi-fi card they'd rather have a PCI-E one so they know what chipset they're getting
Sounds like a Linux problem, Linux market share is so tiny it's almost like an irrelevant market for manufacturers.

To return to the previous point of prebuilts. Look at Corsair One gaymen (12 liter case) PC that they've revealed recently. Corsair is really one of the manufacturers moving towards smaller PCs.
9900K, 2080 Ti and other premium components like 2 large AIOs, all in just in a 12L case. A more powerful system that majority of people here talking shit, and they even offer a 9920X system.
Linus stuck a 22 core CPU and a Titan in a fucking DAN Case. Performance is not the issue, I'd say lack of PCI-E slots is one of the main drawbacks, but again only advanced users truly need them.

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Nigga, I got:

2 slot GPU
1 x PCIe wifi card
8x PCIe NVMe M.2 adapter
1 x PCIe dual gigabit Ethernet

I'm using almost every PCIe slot on my Z97 board faggot.

>Fixing your own shit is only free if your time is worth less
ftfy. Do you have any idea what specialty shops charge to do screen replacements on phones or like reflow components on modern laptops?

pro-tip: It's more than you make per hour.

I have to admit, that's one sexy machine crammed into a 12L bottle...

>2 slot GPU
why even mention this
>1 x PCIe wifi card
there is onboard wifi
>8x PCIe NVMe M.2 adapter
there are onboard nvme mounts
>1 x PCIe dual gigabit Ethernet
there are ITX board with dual gigabit ethernet, it's just that they usually don't care so they make it a single but it's possible

Your shit is obsolete, it's time for the industry to move on.

Of course they don't. Most people building PCs are making gaming rigs and don't need anything beyond a mini ITX board with one PCIe slot for their GPU and 16 lanes on their CPU. But we still need board makers to go on making full ATX boards with more slots because there is still a separate enthusiast crowd that wants to do what I do, or wants to put in a capture card or some other piece of hardware.

Yes. I built mine before that was an option so I ended up with Skylake-X.

You need a big PCB to support a big cooler and fans, dumbo.

Those top tier heatsinks can handle a fucking 9590 pushed beyond 5ghz - something a huge number of AIO units can't.

>there is onboard wifi
But he doesn't have it. And thinking that your 802.11ac is good for the life of the machine is just retarded. You may want to upgrade and can't change the on board one.
>there are onboard nvme mounts
Not 8 of them and this nigga wants to put 8 NVMes in RAID or something.
>there are ITX board with dual gigabit ethernet, it's just that they usually don't care so they make it a single but it's possible
That severely limits you motherboard selection. The point of expansion slots is so you can expand what is on the board. Next someone is going to want 5 ethernet jacks so they can do routing.

Lack of space for hard drives is an issue for ITX. Not all of us want to run a NAS when you can just stick 4 drives in regular case.

MXM has display output pins onboard which should just be a straight shot to the external ports. Upgrading the card should upgrade the output standard. You're SOL if you need new port hardware though.

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What is it?