When did you realize programmers aren't respected?

i live in a country that isn't a shithole like the united states, so employees have protections via unions and law. americans seem to be either too cowardly to unionise and stand up for their rights or just plain ol' retarded and happy to keep licking the cocks of corporations. your government sold you out decades ago. consider moving to a country that isn't a fucking meme and a joke of the modern world.

Moot is a boomer

fuck off, zoomer cancer.

Moot took the Caitlyn Jenner pill

have fun trying to start a business when you have to pay any inexperienced incapable worker the same as a seasoned professional because "it's fair". it is not fair, and that is why the innovation occurs in free markets, not cronie markets where unions run everything

I find the same issue with IT. I argue it is much worse with IT. As the server going off will be a phone call the the IT at pretty much any time. Unless he delegates it to a junior but then it won't get resolved quickly or at all.

Climbing the corporate IT ladder seems less and less worth it with a salary between 80-100k and the responsibilities to some degree to work on call (at least for """ emergancies'""") and often times before 8am and after 5pm.

Yet the salary is assumed for 40 hours of work 5 days a week. Really it needs to be paid hourly.

>i don't like the job i agreed to do after signing a document which affirms i fully understand the conditions of employment
>i am not an adult!!!

Hmmm you might actually have a point if it wasn't an issue with many upper corporate ladder IT positions.

>complaining about the choices you made
hmmm

Its a very cool field. I'm going to try and snake my way into large systems though and avoid this bs where I have a team and try and position my self to not have to deal with emergencies.

If that is possible with dealing with dozens and hundreds of clusters. Which I would like to do.

That’s not how a union works. In a unionized workplace you would have to pay the experienced employee more than the new one regardless of merit.
Unions are also a free market entity. People can choose to join/form a union to represent them. So when the employer negotiates wages and benefits, they must negotiate through the union instead of one-on-one with each employee. Telling people they cannot cooperate to ask for what they are due is cronyism.

>フアギテ
笑

> In a unionized workplace you would have to pay the experienced employee more than the new one regardless of merit.

The unionized employee with more seniority gets paid more because of his seniority not because he's more skillful. Experience means jack shit when your skills haven't improved.

>People can choose to join/form a union to represent them.

Not true. Some jobs force you to join a union.

> So when the employer negotiates wages and benefits, they must negotiate through the union instead of one-on-one with each employee.

This would standardize the salary, making less competent workers be paid on the same level as more competent workers. This is not beneficial for jobs where there's great disparity in skill among workers, as is in the case of programming.

You're literally looking at gov't jobs that are bound to the GS pay bands. They will always pay marginally low, even to market rates. However you generally get pension, hard to be fired, and your employment for years is basically guaranteed. Any private sector job with reasonable benefits however will blow it completely out of the water largely.

Everything else about your post is completely incorrect.

Those are all choices of the union and it's members. A good union will have procedures to remove bad employees.
An awful union can ruin a company, but awful management easily (and more often) does the same. So there is a vested interest in keeping the company profitable so greater benefits can be negotiated from the owners.

no, just too pozzed. only thing programmers lobby for is free software, privacy, and homeless shitting in the streets.

the first two helps Google, the third supports pajeet.

when i realized that theyre a dime a dozen.
im getting an 18K bachalor's degree in cyber security. starting salary: 60K in my area. programmers are retards who didnt understand the difference between cybersecurity and being a keyboard monkey.

you must learn copywriting and let the money flow. Program in your free time.

How about you get that 'bachalors' degree and that job before you come here and suck your own dick dumb arrogant freshman

I went on there and found the exact opposite

You completely misunderstand. Project managers and leadership/communication positions are paid more than programmers because they are ascended programmers. Programmers are indeed respected in their field, and if you're one of the respected ones, you'll graduate to project manager soon enough.

desu, most programmers and comp sci students are fucking retards. Just open github and look into their projects and you'll see. Those comp sci student holding diploma memes aren't far off your average good grades comp sci student after 4 years.

Any good programmers will make their way to the top of the top within time, there are too many dumb people to be nice to them all and hope it works itself out.
It's not like manual labor where 2 dudes can pick up a brick and put it back down 1000 times a day, some people are just stupid, and never "get it".

You want to work for the government and except respect? What a joke.

>They've been telling me how valuable I am, while paying me less than everyone else.
You realize that they tell you and every other would-be schmuck programmer this to promote an oversaturated market to suppress wages... right?

Whether you work for the government or a corporation, the only thing that matters is the bottom line. Ethics and principles are nothing more than tools the elite use to manipulate the worker into being an obedient slave.

>and that is why the innovation occurs in free markets
Real funny description of Shenzhen, China.

It's not just government
cnet.com/news/no-software-engineers-arent-the-highest-paid-employees-in-tech/

Dead from the apocalypse, just like you.

Stupid fucks think they will survive social collapse and finally their skills will be useful, when they will just catch the flu or some shit and die even then without modern medicine.

>good union will have procedures to remove bad employees
lol, not my experience. My former union forced my former employer to keep to making up bullshit jobs for the lazy and useless workers. The union didn't give a shit if those employees gave the rest of us a bad name or forced the rest of us to carry their weight as long as union collected their dues from those workers. Heck at my yard of around a hundred workers we had eight people who I never saw once during my three years at the job still on payroll collecting long term disability. Ever so often we would also have people milk the system by taking stress leave. It was decent job that paid well and I liked the work, but half the people there were lazy and entitled cancer. Glad I skilled up and got the fuck out of there.

Unions are good for low to lower-middle end jobs. The only skilled jobs they are good for is trades where there is not a huge variance in productivity (less than 2x) and minimum standards are enforced through tickets and education/apprenticeship.

For professional jobs, like coding, unions would be terrible. A great coder can be orders of magnitude more productive than a bad one, coding standards are not uniform and at best are enforced per employer/team, and the skills one can acquire through independent learning and initiative are nearly unlimited over the course of a career. Rewarding coders for presence rather than performance would be cancer, why would I take a pay cut to support lazy, greedy, and underperforming co-workers?

>managers make more than their reports
wow, what a surprise!

project manager != engineering manager
project managers are most often non-technicals

a manager is a manager

They have "leadership" and "produce written documents" and "coordinate" stuff
naturally, they should be paid a lot more

Product managers spend all day in meetings, who would want their lives to be that

women

>When did you realize programmers aren't respected?
When I learned the definition of respect(ed). I suggest you look it up.

>local .gov site.
hahahahahahahhahahahahah
Ohwow.jpg

Programmers get more respect than SysAdmins.

I work 20h a week and make more than the average wage in my country.
Sure, it is a third world country but it's a nice pay anywhere, just do some webdev stuff and you're pretty comfy for life

>and position my self to not have to deal with emergencies.
Then you will not be respected.

If you're doing your fucking job right then true emergencies should be _very_ rare, and if it takes you a command or two to fix then it should be automated away.

As for on-call, if your company doesn't compensate you in some way for on-call you should negotiate better, that's bullshit, and you don't need to fucking unionize to get treated better to do it.

I'd suggest you look for positions that involve supporting internal customers, they are a bit easier to blow-off and with the attitude you've got you won't make it far in a real SRE or Devops role.

>the firemen with GEDs make more than me
Shutup faggot. They do dangerous work. I studied for 8 years after high school and you don't hear me crying for a union

commoditization of programmers, too many cs graduates that can't code more than hello world but willing to be paid cheap.

>They've been telling me how valuable I am, while paying me less than everyone else.

Found your problem. You are greatly over estimating your value. Programmers aren't worth shit on a nickel. You might think you're hot shit worth 300k starting but the free market has decided you are not.