2019

>automake, cmake, scons, waf, ...
usually poorly solves what they should solve, but then again so does make and mk
IMAP is too complex and that stand in its own way. but that goes for everything about email protocols, design and infrastructure anyway.
SQL is often misused for simpler data representations where you don't need relations. Beside pq and filesystem idk those. ZIP archive is unironically also a good option. Tar has issues with updates afaik. Would have to check.
PDF is madness from a specifications standpoint. Especially now when it can run JavaScript.
Sound stack on Linux is poor overall. ALSA was nothing special.
GPL is made to compete in software market. It compromises freedom for this purpose just so it stays in proposed boundaries of 4 freedoms.
last line is bullshit
cont.

I've also forget to put the pic of the other version so here it goes. Comments on additions:
>callback-based systems
makes shared resources even harder. As an embedded programmer I use it every day and I would rather not to, if you can just set a flag or trivially push and item into queue, you are a lucky son of a bitch.
>init systems
deamontools is a good entry point to learn about ancient init systems and what replaced them. erlang-style supervisors are still superior design though
>SSH
old reason was lack of standard crypto suite. this died out. then complexity. while you can use ssh without allocating tty, it's pretty common way and tty device design sucks.
looking into cpu(1) is my plan for some future days so can't comment on that
>GRUB
your bootloader contains turing-complete scripting language
>symbolic and hard links
criticism for plan 9 is using globally inconsistent namespacing and lack of providing one's view to another process. so I would not take this too seriously.
>class-based OO, inheritance, templates
Criticism comes from creators and fanboys of C and Go. Learn how the abstraction would be implemented in language without abstraction and what compiler generates for you, educate yourself and make up your own educated opinion on things. C++ specifically implements things badly. Mixins look promising. But Java-like single inheritance and Interfaces are pretty good for polymorphism, although only one interfaces would be enough. Parametric polymorphism is also an option.
>stack machines
They have issues with concurrency (and thus parallelism), see GIL in python and ruby. Not quite sure yet now forth deals with it if it does.
>escape analysis
good concept desu
>AES-256
has some weakness in key scheduling, but nothing breakable

Attached: cat-v harmful extended.png (2421x2522, 2.93M)

/thread

I just checked out this harmful.cat-v site and the whole thing is regurgitated quotes from the 90's and endless amounts of FUD. Hell the Stroustrup interview on the C++ section is actually a hoax. This is what happens when someone believes themselves to be the ubermensch but in reality just lives in a backwards ass echo-chamber which glorifies him for being insufferable.

Zero reasoning, zero facts.

all software is inherently harmful

>IRC is not an elegantly designed protocol.
Better than discord

I'm kinda curious what Uriel would think about Nix/Guix

Reminder that schizo uriel killed himself like worthless pussy.

>seriously recommending hierarchical filesystems over sql

If you goto cat-v website under harmful section they have explanations, or just some old irrelevant irc conversation

I wouldn't put much weight into it though, if you follow suckless ideology you would have a half broken tiling window manager, filled with tiling tnux instances of tiled text editors.

im a noob but the last row, doesnt sed 11q nowadays print 11 lines?

>explanations

pages after pages of quotes from the dark age of technology

some quotes are off of fucking reddit like for real?

>awk less harmful than ruby
>glibc somehow "harmful"
>utf-16 somehow "harmful"
>comparing rdb to hfs
>tmux less harmful than screen
>"or best of all: don't use HTTP."
what kind of absolute pussy retard made this?

What is this?
Seems suckless-tier retarded tbqh.

Just install BSD.
It doesn't werk, so it can't do harm.

What does suckless even mean? They never got any suck from a girl? They never had sex? I'm asking for real. So far from what I've seen from the cat-v website it's all about an echochamber + worshipping a system no one uses and barely has support.

Why did he kill himself? There is no coverage for this on cat-v and his page on there says he was basically an übermensch.

I don't like cults.

because he placed way to much importance on things beyond his control. this inevitably made him feel powerless and hopelessly depressed. the dumbass should have read seneca instead of k&r.

It's way beyond suckless. Those retards are tame compared to the cat-v crowd.

let's see:
>XML
i like XML (and SVG) because it's an universal container that can take pretty much any kind of data
>Flash
still a patrician choice dute to no alternative
>regex
regex is retarded and is by no means a good alternative. even XML is easier to read
>GPL
>harmful

Attached: least intelligent comment.png (960x730, 200K)

>meme post
>calls mine dumber than his
also explain why and i'll tell you why you're wrong

>C
>harmful
WTF
source?

are you blind? it's on the not harmful side

meant to say C++
my bad

>>memes
More like hippie garbage.

I'll try to explain some of the things I agree with him on and know well enough to rant about.

>XML
Insane overhead and complexity to (poorly) solve a very simple problem.
>NFS, SMB
Complex and unreliable.
>C++
A complete shitshow. Every feature is misdesigned or misimplemented in some way. If there are two ways to build a feature, the C++ standards committee will create a new one with the worst aspects of both, turn the verbosity up to 11, underspecify it, make it involve six layers of templates and some bizarre C++ semantics, and let compiler and STL writers have fun figuring out how the fuck it's supposed to work.
>Java
Explicitly written for idiots. Forces you to organize your whole application as objects. Uses shit-tons of memory, not to mention GC.
>PCRE
Not regular, impossible to implement efficiently. (I think that's the objection, anyway.)
>Bash, GNU coreutils
Bloated. Too many redundant or useless options and features.
>GNU screen
Higher bloat and fewer features than tmux, somehow.
>GCC
Used to be a buggy piece of shit compiler. Might still be. Introduces a lot of non-standard features.
>glibc
Insane levels of bloat.
>GNU autoconf/automake
Have you tried to use autoconf? It clearly belongs on this list.
>CMake
One of the worst scripting languages ever invented. Poorly designed from the start. New features never work properly (much like C++). Awful documentation.
>UTF-16
Literally zero benefits over UTF-8. Only survives because Microsoft went full retard in the 90s and standardized on it.
>UTF-32
Waste of space.
>PAM
Have you tried to use PAM? It should be erased from history.
>XMPP
Based on XML. Broken federation because everyone uses a different set of extensions. Will forever be stuck in 2005.
>IMAP
I'm not an email guy, but all the email guys I know of hate it.
>SQL
Usually overkill. (I'd still use SQLite over flat files tbqh.)
>ALSA
Never works quite right, does it?
>GPL, LGPL, Apache, MPL, CC
Uriel was presumably against communism.

>Adobe flash
>not harmless

LOLOLOL

Attached: tech_founders_and_ceo_wallpaper_by_rware-d57sk0s.jpg (1920x1200, 1.41M)

If you don't think C++ is harmful, you must either be on the standards committee (and therefore arguably insane) or not know it very well.

Attached: 1556137033617.jpg (206x217, 11K)

whoever made that is a retard and an assburger.

It's a list made by people who use computers just to use computers, i.e. not to do anything useful with them like music, web design, etc.

Thus everything that does not pass some purity philosophical test gets labelled "harmful". It's like a new age vegan cult that only eats fruits, or something like that.

It doesn't even try to explain why any of these are harmful so into the trash it goes

Someone called him "bloat" and "harmful" so he decided to rm -rf himself

>Bloated. Too many redundant or useless options and features.
GNU coreutils are very overengineered but you'd be surprised how much of the code is useful. GNU grep has phenomenal real world performance, for example, because it uses an algorithm that is more complex, but very efficient.
More features in a shell is also justifiable since they're designed for interactive use. Dunno how bad bash is these days but zsh has good usability with a few customizations. rc is only good for scripting.

It's not harmful at all.
It's behind 99% of video games, the mars rover, most desktop software, etc.

>behind 99% of video games
Lmao
doubt.jpg

I must use it for college project (only language allowed)
previously used C and C#
could you explain why is harmful?

Yes, because:
>video games use a carefully selected subset and have god-tier programmers working on them
>the Curiosity software is straight C as far as I know
>most desktop software blows

>It's behind 99% of video games
You sure you want to use this industry as an example of software quality?

There are people who can explain it much better than me. Read the C++ FQA for a start.

I haven't used c++ so I haven't run into its flaws yet, but aren't most of those ugly parts optional? Can't you just use it as it was C with classes?

>C with classes?
Classes and exceptions are already harmful.

>Harmful: Based Perl
>Less harmful: (((GoOgle)))
Fuck off

t. smug lisp weenie

Sure, but there are a few problems.

First off, it's hard to learn C++ without also learning bad habits.
Most people learn it through university, tutorials, StackOverflow, books with "modern C++" in the title and by reading the Boost source code or some shit. All of these will teach you that using misfeatures is not only perfectly acceptable, but also the Correct™ thing to do.
You will, for instance, be taught that using pointers is Dangerous™ and you should always use references, or that using char* is Dangerous™ and you should always bloat your shit up with std::string, or that using switch statements is Dangerous™ and you should write sixteen classes and use virtual dispatch instead.
Sure, maybe you learned C++ by watching Handmade Hero or reading the Doom 3 source code. But guess what, your co-workers sure as shit didn't. Have fun maintaining the template hairballs they produce.

Second, nobody can agree on a single sane subset of C++.
If you ever want to use a library and it wasn't written by Sean Barrett or some other jaded and bitter C++ skeptic, prepare to get buttfucked by Bjarne.
And guess what? The STL will not play well with any subset you choose. The STL uses ALL THE FEATURES.
You either have to ditch the STL, which is a perfectly reasonable choice (that you will however get lynched for) or accept that you will at some point have to care about iterators, exceptions, nested templates, move semantics, STL allocators and fuck knows what else.

Third, have fun subsetting C++ in the first place.
Every single C++ feature is flawed in some way, and as a novice programmer you are unlikely to understand the flaws. I'm not fucking around - every feature. I double dare anyone in this thread to name one C++ feature that does not have built-in footguns. The only one I can think of is multiple dispatch, and people still manage to misuse it...

Anyway, yeah, everything is optional, but it's also harmful despite that.

I love how it's just "less harmful" and not even harmless. Everything hurts, don't touch.

After few years programming and some really bad experience at some shitty companies, I came to the conclusion OOP was a very bad concept to spread. Eventually it can be useful, but a lot of languages implement it badly (like java for example) and all the features around it, push people using the OOP in such way that makes programs a mess to maintain.
Is it just me to think oop was a harmful concept ?

djvu is an extremely poor replacement for pdf and epub except in edge cases where you are trying to store nothing but bitmaps.

(((ELEGANTLY)))

yep.

still alive too

>KDE

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i'd like to add to that
i started learning programming in C++ because that's what everyone was shilling at that time. but as time passed i realised that, except for a few features such as strings, all my code is pretty much C done in C++ and at that point i didn't really see any reason to continue using C++

>threads are shit concept...
mah nig--
>...just use processes
hol up

Attached: 1549993369715.jpg (125x125, 3K)

Only reason to use OOP is having a different way to call a function.
I ended realizing that the things I wrote using OOP could be replace with C style simple structures and good functions that take them as parameters.

My other problem with OOP was also dealing with people that can't design for shit and make a dozen of abstraction to their stuff, rending the whole, unusable and maintainable.

>go
>not harmful when it's literally maintained by one of the worst companies
H O W
O
W

and they're both tame compared to the bitreich crowd

>openbsd is less harmful compared to freebsd, netbsd, Solaris

This one is correct though, if you use any other version of BSD, besides open, you are a gigantic nigger.

Attached: IMG_20190425_214311.jpg (1412x192, 67K)

I cherry pick from all sides because fuck you.

>NetBSD
>harmful
They're a fucking poster child for code quality. Even NASA has used it on the ISS.

fpbp

Specifically, any code you cannot or will not audit. DIY all the way, baby!

what's the difference between FreeBSD and OpenBSD besides license?

Learn to read, gynoid

Their focus. OpenBSD focuses on security. FreeBSD focuses on shrieking into the void.

>Go
>Less harmful
Was this list made by Rob "The Cob" Pike?

Attached: nigga-disapproves.jpg (640x646, 45K)

No, but it was made by a devotee of his: uriel. He committed suicide, by the way.

>He committed suicide, by the way.
We can see why.

Otherway around.
Printers and Apple convert PDFs to Postscript.

>bitreich
Their website is too autistic for me. What programs have they created? cat-v holds Plan 9 as its absolute god. What is bitreich's god?

life, the ultimate harmful thing

At first, I used bloated shit, like everyone else did at first.
Then I too got the cat-v virus amd started wanking over muh minimalism (ignore the fact that these fags gloss over the fact that they still use X nonetheless)
Finally, I realized that there is a third way: software that is well designed, modular, extensible, featureful and possibly large, but justifiably so and by no means bloated.
After switching from Vim to Emacs and from dwm to Xmonad, for examole, it felt like a breath of fresh air.
Not to mention that they are incredibly ignorant about computing history in general and unironically believe everything good came from Unix.
They unironically mention C being the first language created after assembly in their mailing list.

Attached: 1556247217698.jpg (1920x1200, 152K)

>got the cat-v virus
>used Vim and dwm
Thought cat-v folks would use Acme and Rio.

>switching from Vim to Emacs
b-b-but they're both on the harmful side...

I've consistently noticed that the fat-ass GNU tools are actually pretty good. They're (often, if not always) fast, they have the features you want.

fatness was always acceptable under GNU if it was for simplicity or speed, too
gnu.org/gnu/thegnuproject.html
>In addition, we rejected the Unix focus on small memory size, by deciding not to support 16-bit machines (it was clear that 32-bit machines would be the norm by the time the GNU system was finished), and to make no effort to reduce memory usage unless it exceeded a megabyte.
>In programs for which handling very large files was not crucial, we encouraged programmers to read an entire input file into core, then scan its contents without having to worry about I/O.

stallman never really gave a damn about the Unix philosophy, either
he wanted to clone Unix largely because it was popular and thus would have been useful as a drop-in, rather than because he liked the design -- he primarily used other systems prior to beginning work on GNU

The cat-v website as a whole always strikes me as a bunch of edgy people still with a high schooler mentality who don't really believe in anything.
They just live to mock and point fingers.

They really don't. Many of them actually run 9front in a VM, for instance.
It's all just a big joke.
They are all just LARPing to make honest, but relatively uninformed people feel insecure.
Honestly, really a pathetic kind.

Yeah, I meant using Acme and Rio as in, Acme and Rio from plan9port. I didn't meant to imply that they actually use Plan 9.

they consider children harmful so don't expect them to exist for too long
there was once that religion that abolished sex and reproduction but it died out and everyone can guess why

>best of all: Don't use HTTP
Are you smoking crack?? You do know that you posted this to a website using HTTP, right? What the fuck else would you do? Do you really think that most users even know what HTTP stands for?
I admit that it's not a great protocol and that the headers can be weird because of certain omissions or conflicting controls or non-existent implementations, but what else would you do for the usual text and image sites?

This

True. Most people seem to forget what "GNU" actually stands for.
Personally, I never gave a shit about my system being "Unix-like", and I don't understand why people often claim "more Unix-like = better, less Unix-like = worse".
Unix is an old, outdated system from the 70s, which was in some ways already nad at the time. We should have been moving beyond cloning it decades ago.
GNU software may not be autistically minimal, but for the most part it works, and it works well, often better than more "minimal" alternatives. I can also appreciate the philosophy behind the creation of such software in thr first place.

>but what else would you do for the usual text and image sites?
gopher

Minimalism is a meme, why? Because computers are supposed to make life easier, not the other way around.

I 99% agree. Lisp is not usually interpreted though.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gopher_(protocol)
Thank you. This is a good read, but 260 active servers is practically dead. I'd like a replacement to HTTP, but Gopher isn't going to make a comeback.

What things exactly? Was it still something related to software?
I mean, fuck, he was still really young, he could have actually done something in his life to achieve his dream of bloatless software if he didn't kill himself.
I hope it was something more "serious".

>bitreich
Who?

I don't think it is known. From what I remember, no one who knew him wanted to talk too much about his reasons.

>True. Most people seem to forget what "GNU" actually stands for.

Gigantic, Nasty and Unavoidable.
That's how OpenBSD people call GNU crap.