software minimalism is using windows because you dont give a fuck
Samuel Barnes
>Debian (netinst) Implying there's a difference in installation method. Jesus fucking Christ, Jow Forums really doesn't know anything about Linux does it? It's the same fucking distro, you can literally cherrypick packages regardless of installer.
Then again >citing cat-v.org seriously, ignoring that it is a humorist site
>Huge post slapping down all the bullshit inclusivity nonsense >First response is HEY HE SAID THE JEWS DID IT jesus christ
Jaxson Sullivan
>he can't read between the (((lines))) autism is correlated with social conservationism, maybe you should get yourself checked
Justin Adams
being a good goy is minimalism
Benjamin King
Redpill me on Inferno.
Chase Rodriguez
C is bloated, verbose and bad. The only way a program written in C manages not to be "bloat" and have a massive codebase is deliberately restricting features under the pathetic excuse of "Unix philosophy".
"Worse is better" is degeneracy. Its goal is really just outsourcing work on the end user which should have been included in the implementation. Perfect for lazy developers.
>"Worse is better" is degeneracy Keep your terminology in your containment board polfag. Worse is acturally better in response of thr shit direction this industry is going with this shit complex frameworks and MD* idiotic software developement
Gabriel Davis
it's all a conspiracy, shit like electron and other blote means people buy newer hardware for normie shit like web browsing and discord
Michael Brown
>In 1990 I proposed a theory, called Worse Is Better, of why software would be more likely to succeed if it was developed with minimal invention. ... It is far better to have an underfeaturedproduct that is rock solid, fast, and small than one that covers what an expert would consider the complete requirements. Look at that. Rock solid, fast, and small.
Jaxson Watson
>Jesus fucking Christ, Jow Forums really doesn't know anything about Linux does it? It's the same fucking distro, you can literally cherrypick packages regardless of installer. It’s funny because you’ve obviously never installed Debian. The default ISO installs GNOME, but the net installer allows you to install only the absolute basics for a small minimal system. Protip: you don’t even need to connect to the internet for debian’s netinstall.
But of course, you already knew this? Stupid fuck
Zachary Nelson
Implying that the default installer doesn't allow you to deselect GNOME. Implying you can't simply just remove GNOME or any other packages upon first boot. Implying you know how the package manager works at all.
It's fucking Linux, you can do whatever you want. Unless the netinstaller or regular installer actually installs different fucking kernels, there is no fucking difference. Just debloat after install if you're going to be autistic about it. I bet you're one of those faggots that distro hops every two weeks, aren't you?
Henry Moore
>Uriel was right If you really think he was right you would've an hero'd by now as well.
Jason Cook
>It's fucking Linux, you can do whatever you want. Sure, I never said otherwise.
>Just debloat after install if you're going to be autistic about it. I bet you're one of those faggots that distro hops every two weeks, aren't you? So instead of doing a simple minimal install, you’re proposing I take the time to first install all packages I don’t want, and then I can remove them? What sense does that make? And no, I haven’t distro hopped in years, where do you even get that idea?
I honestly feel like you’re off, something is strange about the way you’re typing as well. But to answer you, I understand the package manager much better than you. Even with uninstalling and purging, configuration files and folders can still persist, which clutters up the system.
Alexander Peterson
>you’re proposing I take the time to first install all packages No, I'm proposing you actually deselect the packages you don't want which is 100% possible to do in the regular installer, and you'd know that if you weren't retarded.
I'm also suggesting that the installer you choose is irrelevant to whether your system is "minimalist" or not, what matters is the current state of it. Not how you fucking installed it.
>I honestly feel like you’re off, something is strange about the way you’re typing as well. What is that even supposed to mean, you fucking cunt?
>Even with uninstalling and purging, configuration files and folders can still persist, which clutters up the system. Oh no, folders!! Okay, you ARE autistic.
Hunter Torres
>folders They're called directories. Folders is a Microsoft thing.
Colton Sullivan
Found the winfag
Cameron Sullivan
>No, I'm proposing you actually deselect the packages you don't want which is 100% possible to do in the regular installer, and you'd know that if you weren't retarded. Look up, you literally just said: >Implying you can't simply just remove GNOME or any other packages upon first boot. >Just debloat after install if you're going to be autistic about it. So which is it? Don’t select the packages on install or debloat after installation?
>Oh no, folders!! Okay, you ARE autistic. But the point is, WHY would you go out of your way to install packages and then remove them? Since you’re slow, let me give you an analogy.
Say you want to drive to the store. Which would you choose?
1) Drive directly to the store. 2) Drive around 3 hours and then go to the store.
According to you, these are both exactly the same and everyone should pick 2 otherwise you’re “autistic”. The real autist here is you unfortunately.
Caleb Miller
gawk, mawk or nawk? Also, how the fuck am I supposed to replace util-linux and coreutils with their suckless counterparts when those are missing a bunch of parts?
Jose Ortiz
>Look up, you literally just said: Yeah, except you're also ignoring literally half of my post leading up to that.
>Don’t select the packages on install or debloat after installation? My point was that it's fucking possible to do BOTH, which leads to the conclusion that having an autistic meltdown over which fucking installer you use is, well, autistic.
The rest of your post is just a continuation of your strawman argument so I'm not going to reply to any of that.
Jacob Gonzalez
>The default ISO installs GNOME Only if you tell it to. You can literally choose which DE to install (if any at all). Have you even used the non-netinstaller the last 15 years?
Nathan Walker
Inferno Is the true future. Imagine an OS that has all the benefits of Plan9 and doesn't require a MMU. I installed it and played with it. It's a good start for a Linux replacement.
Jayden Bennett
Are you saying that Inferno doesn't use the MMU? Everything shares the same address space? Oh, god, that's horrifying.
Caleb Long
No it's absolutely genius. Every programm runs in the DIS Vm similar to the Dalvik engine of Android just non bloated. This way memory management and multitasking is governed at language level. The MMU is responsible for severe latency when accessing memory. It needs to be abolished sooner or later anyways.
Cameron Cruz
There isn't any way to bypass the MMU on modern architectures, you stupid shit. Usually when saying that it doesn't use the MMU it means that everything is identity mapped to physical addresses, which also means that the entire address space is exposed.
What you are saying, on the other hand, is that everything runs in a VM, not that virtual addressing isn't being used. That's not the same thing.
Gabriel Bailey
Bloatware is another problem caused by C and UNIX and the minimalist philosophy. Mainframes in the 60s and 70s placed a lot of emphasis on compatibility between programs written in different languages, but that requires using your brain and thinking about the common types used by programming languages. PL/I was designed to be compatible with Fortran, Cobol, Algol, and assembly programs and it includes a superset of all the types supported by those languages. Multics and VMS have data descriptors and common data structures to share data between programs written in any language, based mainly on PL/I. On these systems, the choice of programming language is about you, the programmer, but on UNIX, programming languages are about other people. There is no way to combine programs written in different languages other than shitty C "FFI" bullshit that doesn't even cover basic data types like arrays and strings. This leads to huge duplication in code and extreme slowdowns. You can't use Perl libraries from Python or JavaScript libraries from Java, and it gets worse. My computer has at least 10 garbage collectors and none of them are compatible. Some of them have their own schedulers and audio libraries, like operating systems on top of your OS. A Lisp machine has only one garbage collector, so there is no duplication in memory management. A Lisp machine has only one metaobject system, so objects can be combined even if they have totally different metaclasses. Every language gets bignums for free (only slower if there's an overflow) and a single address space that is shared between all programs, so you can just share an actual data structure instead of pipes and XML and all that bullshit. [cont.]
Lucas Hernandez
>Have you even used the non-netinstaller the last 15 years? lol nope, I was wrong.
I apologize, I was arguing about something I wasn’t familiar with. Sorry for calling you slow.
Thomas Cooper
[cont.] The other flaw of minimalism is even worse. You can no longer depend on any library or command being present on the computer, which leads to every program having to reinvent wheels. Even simple string functions are "reinvented" by C programs when they should only have to exist one time in a library or the compiler's built-in functions. C compilers can't even do basic error checking that BASIC compilers and interpreters did. This "philosophy" is at the root of what makes C and UNIX suck. It leads to autoconf and all that "conditional" bullshit browsers have to do to avoid incompatibility. These web pages need recent browsers to even view them at all and at the same time need all this bloated library code. Electron putting multiple copies of Chromium on a computer that already has one or more web browsers is another example of the UNIX philosophy. A maximalist design would not only not need any of this bullshit, it would also integrate "web" technology and interfaces with native GUI design using the object system. The web as we think of it with "apps" and all that crap probably wouldn't even exist on Lisp machines because the native GUI is more powerful and easier to use (JavaScript needs bloated frameworks to do what Lisp machines could do without them).
Caleb Sanders
It *can* run without MMU. If you compile it for e.g. AVR32 or 68k which hasn't a MMU it will work. The MMU has to go. Memory latency is the biggest bottleneck in todays computing. On the other hand bounds checking can be done in parrallel on every super scalar CPU nowadays with zero cost. My benchmarks on a raspberry pi showed that you get C like performance with the DIS VM because the only overhead is bounds checking.
Christian Sanchez
There are many reasons why GNU Emacs is as big as it is while its original ITS counterpart was much smaller:
- C is a horrible language in which to implement such things as a Lisp interpreter and an interactive program. In particular any program that wants to be careful not to crash (and dump core) in the presence of errors has to become bloated because it has to check everywhere. A reasonable condition system would reduce the size of the code.
- Unix is a horrible operating system for which to write an Emacs-like editor because it does not provide adequate support for anything except trivial "Hello world" programs. In particular, there is no standard good way (or even any in many variants) to control your virtual memory sharing properties.
- Unix presents such a poor interaction environment to users (the various shells are pitiful) that GNU Emacs has had to import a lot of the functionality that a minimally adequate "shell" would provide. Many programmers at TLA never directly interact with the shell, GNU Emacs IS their shell, because it is the only adequate choice, and isolates them from the various Unix (and even OS) variants.
Don't complain about TLA programs vs. Unix. The typical workstation Unix requires 3 - 6 Mb just for the kernel, and provides less functionality (at the OS level) than the OSs of yesteryear. It is not surprising that programs that ran on adequate amounts of memory under those OSs have to reimplement some of the functionality that Unix has never provided.
What is Unix doing with all that memory? No, don't answer, I know, it is all those pre-allocated fixed-sized tables and buffers in the kernel that I'm hardly ever using on my workstation but must have allocated at ALL times for the rare times when I actually need them. Any non-brain-damaged OS would have a powerful internal memory manager, but who ever said that Unix was an OS?
>There is no way to combine programs written in different languages other than shitty C "FFI" bullshit that doesn't even cover basic data types like arrays and strings. That's what pipes are for top dumdum and they are part of unix philosophy
>A Lisp machine has only one garbage collector, so there is no duplication in memory management. A lisp machine didn't having anything so it's not a good argument. My toy kernel I wrote was more efficient but I'm not an arrogant piece of shit, the problem arise from utilization and lisp machine had *terrible* performance. Every argument you make start from *not* following unix philosophy.
>Even simple string functions are "reinvented" by C programs when they should only have to exist one time in a library or the compiler's built-in functions. That's a C problem, not the unix philosophy The rest of the post is shit
This whole post is about emacs, a fucking text editor /OS. You know you are retarded if you make a OS argument around a text editor. In the meantime Acme follows the unix principles and it's even more extensible than emacs, you can extend it in *any* language that implement the 9p library
Caleb Hill
>unix philosophy good Eunuchs weenies never learn.
James Myers
Good argument toe eater
Jace Carter
>It *can* run without MMU. Obviously on systems that doesn't have an MMU, yes.
>The MMU has to go. Memory latency is the biggest bottleneck in todays computing. Yet you are using MMU acceleration (shadow pages) to run in a VM.... Really makes you think.
Gavin Gomez
my nuts feel bloated and im a virgin wat do? hard mode: no paying girls
Because of the colors. As much as I despise Bell Labs and Rob Pike, they got the default colors right with Plan 9. Light themes have been shown in numerous studies to be better for readability and easier on the eyes. In fact, I don't understand why so many people here in desktop threads seem to use dark themes everywhere. Having a cream/yellowish background instead of plain white also makes it less aggressive, and thus usable even in low light conditions with proper backlight levels. It feels like reading an old book near a candle at night, very comfy.
Joshua Gomez
Link?
Adrian James
>As much as I despise Bell Labs and Rob Pike, imagine being so butthurt over syntax highlighting. bloody pathetic.
Whats the easiest way to serve files on a server I just want to write a bash script that sends my screenshot to a remote server, probably via scp and return me a url of it. I'm not trying to run an image board or anything complex, just hosting files. Hopefully without it being an open directory that is browsable and searchable from Google.
John Richardson
That's rio, user.
Jackson Morgan
>Sweden was a dictatorship because the same party won too many elections
i always liked suckless. Now i'm really liking it.
Logan Jackson
dwm looks comfy. Dwm is life
Evan Cooper
cure a bloat mind with meditation cure a bloat desktop with suckless cure a bloat room by throwing everything away. cure a bloat body with fasting and vigorous workouts
