So I just tried Debian 10 + Wayland and, surprise, it's still the same broken piece of shit as it was 2 years ago

So I just tried Debian 10 + Wayland and, surprise, it's still the same broken piece of shit as it was 2 years ago.

1. Graphical tablet is still totally broken. Basicaly, you can't use it period. And it's broken in such a way that it kind of suggests they just don't give a shit. Probably never even bothered fucking testing it. Ever.
2. Remember those black bars flickering around Firefox window when resizing? Well, of course they're still there.
3. And of course, screen capture apps are still impossible by design (I think you can't even get screen size programmatically).

Just wait til X is dropped from all distros. Gonna be fun.

Attached: 1200px-Wayland_Logo.svg.png (1200x1200, 66K)

Other urls found in this thread:

gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland/activity
youtube.com/watch?v=Zsz7Shbnb9c
github.com/st3r4g/swvkc
github.com/lucurious-labs/lucurious
github.com/fzwoch/obs-gnome-screencast
igurublog.wordpress.com/2012/11/05/gnome-et-al-rotting-in-threes/
twitter.com/NSFWRedditGif

works on my machine

t. Red Hat shill

>Graphical tablet
wat? who the fuck uses a tablet, even worse, with linux?

Um, a lot of people?

oh my god black bars when resizing a window. the absolute horror, op.

why do people complain about free shit? just don't use it or become a contributor.

>using GNOME
you asked for this OP

Nice job focusing on 2 and ignoring 1 and 3 - the real problems, faggot.

Tablet drivers all depend on Xinput

Its probably not that wayland is broken but rather not supported by the software yet.

So what the fuck are you saying besides just repeating my point that GNOME+Wayland is a broken piece of shit? What do you disagree with?

Is Wayland difficult to write WMs for? Why are there so little available? dwm is so goddamn simple, why hasn't anyone ported it over?

Gnome is the only usable de for linux. It isn't great, but not terrible either.

This is why I'm seriously considering just going all-in with macOS. I started using it at my job and it just fucking werks. No bullshit fiddling around with kernel parameters and drivers just so it's fucking usable. It just werks. I get better usability than Windows and the same power as I do on Linux.

MacOS is not free software and supports even less hardware than Linux. So no it doesn't "just werk".

You see, unlike complicated, legacy X, Wayland is super clean, modern and easy to write for. That's why nobody ports WMs to it.

I just don't know why you're complaining. You installed a shit DE on top of a technology that has had a reputation for being buggy and unfinished for years. And - surprise! - it sucks. What exactly did you expect? Go install Xfce or MATE or Cinnamon or whatever on top of Xorg.

>MacOS is not free software
Look, I do prefer libre software and contribute to it when I can, but at the end of the day I've got shit to do. I can't adopt Stallman's principles and still be a productive 21st wageslave. I have shit to get done.
>supports even less hardware than Linux
Yes, because it's built for Apple hardware, duh. Personally I think Apple hardware is massively overpriced but I don't mind buying hardware that's a few years old. (or in the case of my job, I get hardware supplied by the company)

kek. What bliss must it be to have such a simple mind. MacOS is the literal worst of all possible worlds.

It's because everyone is fucking retarded while Wayland developers are infallible geniuses that know the only true way.

>Uses cutting edge technology
>Uses Debian
Fucking retard. If you want wayland used a more up to date, mode recent distro since Wayland is a fast changing fast improving project.

>MacOS is the literal worst of all possible worlds.
Explain how. I'll wait.

Wayland architecture is totally different from X so a new library has needed to be built to support building WMs in the traditional sense. This is being worked on now but it will still be a while before it's simple to port over any window manager.

>Wayland is a fast changing fast improving project
>gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland/activity
Doesn't seem fast improving or even moving at all.

>t. pootering

MacOS is a poor option for people to get shit done. Wayland is being adopted by a lot of companies now because it's free software and they can use it to build their own custom graphics stack on top of it. This is not an option with MacOS where the compositor is proprietary. I don't know why you waste your breath defending the decisions your company made for you. Who the fuck cares, just do your job and go home, you don't need to shill for Apple.

Sounds retarded. Why even bother creating something like Wayland if it's just going to be shit anyway, without any driver support even.

>Wayland architecture is totally different from X so a new library has needed to be built to support building WMs in the traditional sense. This is being worked on now but it will still be a while before it's simple to port over any window manager.

Oh cool, what am I supposed to do in the meantime - quit my job? Don't fucking make experimental tech the default.

PSA FYI ELI5 YMMV there's a discord group that organizes these Wayland FUD attack. Who is paying for these efforts I don't really know. Some members are legit mentally ill so proceed with care.

Attached: ok.png (300x250, 12K)

The protocol is stable but Wayland based compositors are fast moving retard

Based schizo.

>they can use it to build their own custom graphics stack on top of it.
Why would I need that on a system that I'm doing development on? This is just solidifying that old proverb that Linux is for servers or embedded devices. Nobody uses macOS for their servers or embedded hardware because it's for DESKTOPS.
>I don't know why you waste your breath defending the decisions your company made for you
I have the option to go back to Linux at any time (which I've been using for years now, by the way). But I've grown tired of fiddling with shit and opening bug reports at every corner because something's broken.
>you don't need to shill for Apple.
If I can help a single person in this thread make the same realization I did then I'd be satisfied. Linux just doesn't belong on desktops. For servers, sure, it's excellent.
kek

That repo is for wayland the protocol which saw a lot of work several years ago, but has stabilized recently. Most of the activity now is being done in the individual programs, compositors, toolkits, support libraries, etc, that implement the protocol.

Wayland doesn't say anything about driver support, it's a protocol. I assume your problem is with the GNOME wayland port being broken. That is a problem with GNOME, take it up with them.

No, you can keep using X, or you can help contribute to these libraries.

Why not just rewrite X11 and make it suck a little less this time? People say X's source code is too spaghetti for that to be viable but Wayland has been nothing but a promise for at least 10 years, surely we could have rewritten X by now.

>No, you can keep using X

for now

Developing on the same platform as you deploy on is good practice anywhere. I've paid the VM tax for years, it's not worth it. MacOS isn't even that good a desktop, the only thing it's good as is as a facebook machine.
>But I've grown tired of fiddling with shit and opening bug reports at every corner because something's broken.
In my experience Apple software is even more buggy and Apple is even worse at responding to bug reports. There is no public bug tracker, any complaints you make just go into a void. Xcode in particular is a horrible broken mess that crashes constantly and is highly unpleasant to use. But there is no other option if you want to make native Mac or iOS apps because Apple runs a proprietary ecosystem.
>If I can help a single person in this thread make the same realization I did then I'd be satisfied.
You aren't helping anyone, you are making things worse. Please stop.

>I've paid the VM tax for years
I write software targeting Linux and I don't need a VM. macOS is UNIX-based so most of the time you can get away without a VM.
>any complaints you make just go into a void
I haven't tried reporting any bugs (mainly because I haven't SEEN any), but I've been told they're actually very responsive.
>Xcode in particular is a horrible broken mess that crashes constantly
I don't use Xcode and I don't develop for Mac or iOS so this isn't relevant to me.
>You aren't helping anyone, you are making things worse. Please stop.
I'm free to say what I want. If Linux were as great as you make it sound then you probably wouldn't need to silence me - it would speak for itself.

I don't want to silence you. If you look back my primary criticisms are that MacOS is nonfree software and has bad hardware support. You are the one trying to whitewash over these issues because you know they will never be fixed.
>most of the time you can get away without a VM.
Linux and MacOS are actually quite divergent in features so this idea that you don't need a VM makes no sense. "UNIX-based" is meaningless marketing jargon from the 80s.
>I haven't tried reporting any bugs
You don't have any idea what you're talking about then.
>but I've been told they're actually very responsive.
Take it from me, they aren't.
>I don't use Xcode and I don't develop for Mac or iOS so this isn't relevant to me.
I don't use harmful operating systems with shit hardware support in any way, so it isn't relevant to me either.

>3. And of course, screen capture apps are still impossible by design (I think you can't even get screen size programmatically).

wtf are you talking about you retard both screenshots and video recording works fine with grim and wf-recorder

>If you look back my primary criticisms are that MacOS is nonfree software and has bad hardware support.
Most people don't care about whether or not they can read the source code of the software they're running, and there's nothing wrong with that.
>has bad hardware support
I've already covered this. It's made for Apple hardware. If you don't want to shell out massive amounts of money you can buy older hardware.
>You are the one trying to whitewash over these issues
What about Linux's issues, huh? What about the ridiculous divergence between distributions, where each has its very own package manager for no good reason (duplication of effort)? What about the lack of a good display stack (the very thing we're discussing in this thread)? Xorg is old, bloated, and sucks. Wayland is new but massively incomplete and still widely unsupported. I'm sure you'll try to whitewash over these issues because you know they won't be fixed any time soon.
>I don't use harmful operating systems
"Harmful". That's such a Stallmanite thing to say that I'm not sure I'm even conversing with somebody that's on the same planet.

What it comes down to is convenience vs freedom. I value freedom, but as I said already, I have shit to do. If an operating system can allow me to build good software whilst not requiring me to invest hours upon hours fiddling with kernel parameters, environment variables, random config files littered all over the filesystem, then that's what I want. That's what macOS has turned out to be, for me.

It's not just a matter of a refactor though. The whole model X works on is legacy.
youtube.com/watch?v=Zsz7Shbnb9c

Like I already said, Apple products are not good for anyone who has shit to do. Reading the source code is not the issue. The issue is that Apple strictly controls everything and refuses to let you do anything that isn't approved by them, including run it on unapproved hardware. Buying Apple hardware does not solve this when all their products have the same issues. They do not support you building good software. They support you operating in their walled garden. That's all. Anything else is secondary to that goal. This will never change as long as Apple is in business. You should NEVER buy their products and you should never suggest them either. So please don't do that.

>What about the ridiculous divergence between distributions,
Divergence is by design, not every distro should support the same things. Remember that the way Apple does things is wrong. Building a very limited OS for a very limited set of hardware that can't be modified is not realistic for 99% of companies.

>where each has its very own package manager for no good reason (duplication of effort)?
There is not much duplication of effort, most package managers have their own unique angle they take. And still this is better than macos, where you have no options and the only remotely usable package manager is homebrew which is an awful slow, broken piece of software written by web developers who don't know anything about packaging software.

>Wayland is new but massively incomplete and still widely unsupported. I'm sure you'll try to whitewash over these issues because you know they won't be fixed any time soon.
Wayland the protocol is complete, so that issue is already fixed. The compositors are still being worked on and they always will be because the protocol is extensible by design and supports innovation. Apple does not, their graphics stack is proprietary and pushing towards an even more walled garden approach.

whats this
>github.com/st3r4g/swvkc
>github.com/lucurious-labs/lucurious
>github.com/fzwoch/obs-gnome-screencast

I respect you taking the time to have this conversation.
It appears that most of your argument is that macOS is proprietary. I can respect this, but it's just not a concern for the layman. Even if Apple started streaming everyone's cameras to their servers tomorrow morning, people would just migrate to another platform (Windows, probably) or just put up with it. There's nothing to lose because they can leave at any time.
>Wayland the protocol is complete
Hardly. Only recently were the protocols for remote desktop control merged. If I needed to use something like Skype or Slack for work and needed to share my screen, how likely do you think it would be that the screen share feature would work on my Wayland-based Linux setup? I'm betting zero percent. What if I needed to share my screen in an important company call and it's not working? Do I tell them: "Sorry, the feature doesn't work on my computer because I run Linux?". Or "Sorry, can somebody else pull it up?". It makes you look like an idiot.
>the protocol is extensible by design and supports innovation
Supports it, but doesn't necessarily encourage it. Companies tend to be more motivated when they can contribute to proprietary ecosystems and protect their IP.

The layman doesn't have a business to run. My point is that Apple products are toys. They have never had much success selling into the business markets. There is a reason they were floundering so bad before they came out with the iphone, which is also a toy.

Screen sharing works now but yes, old applications will still need to be ported. If this bothers you X is still an option. Skype and Slack are proprietary programs aimed at windows users so you can't expect them to keep up to date with any new APIs in any timely manner, and it's not possible for anyone to submit a patch for them to add support for anything. I would advise not using those programs, use a free (libre) screen sharing program and have someone write the patch if it doesn't have wayland support.

The Wayland protocol is publicly developed and MIT licensed so anyone could add proprietary extensions to it. There are already a number of private extensions out there made for specific uses.

>Companies tend to be more motivated when they can contribute to proprietary ecosystems and protect their IP.
I disagree, not every company behaves poorly like Apple does.

>dude just write your own tools
X does not have this problem
Windows does not have this problem
Even MacOS does not have this problem

Yes they do. Someone had to write all those tools. Do you think they just wrote themselves?

GTK deprecates dozens of API functions with every new subminor version, who wants to write for it? How can you rely on such "API"?

Compare that to Win32.

Aren't they still reeeing that a whole bunch of applications just never bothered to move to gtk3 for precisely that reason?

maybe don't try it on a broken obsolete peace of shit

Deprecated does not mean removed. Nothing is removed until a major version change. When that happens you can keep using the old version if you want. GTK2 is still getting maintenance releases and is shipped on every distro.
>Win32
Also has tons of deprecated functions

igurublog.wordpress.com/2012/11/05/gnome-et-al-rotting-in-threes/

Who, the GTK devs? They don't give a flying fuck about anything as long as gnome calculator works.

i do? painting with krita? Blender sculpting?

Attached: shake head.webm (516x546, 228K)

Well get fucked, because Linux is for smart TVs and car dashboards.

don't mind me, just posting bad jokes.

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>he typed all this
>went to update his distro
>gnome custom template broke for the 200 time
ye go for it loser, program with GTK its so fun!

>Deprecated does not mean removed.

Yeah it means a load of compiler warnings. I'm not a dirty pleb that builds without -Wall -Werror -pedantic.

Wayland is for cucks. I will never use that trash.