>Next time you go to an interview, ask them this question "So you're offering me a salary of $50k. How much money in profit am I making you? See if they tell you. See if they don't omit that shit, Are you making $200k off of me, but you're paying me $50k? What is the profit margin on this project that you're hiring me on for? Is this project $3M and you're paying me $50k and other devs $100k?
>[...]
>The point is you are expendable. You are a profit margin decrease. There is no job security, there is no company loyalty.
Are you going to become a communist after you lose your job, Jow Forums?
Also, can someone edit pic related to make the cop be a programmer? Thanks.
Spending less than they take in is how companies make a profit. If you want to keep 100% of the fruits of your work (minus taxes), freelance.
Logan Phillips
I am going to do my own shit, pay devs justly, live in a small shack by the sea side and live a above poverty life of surfing, programming, and fucking hippie qts
that's how every single job in a capitalist society works the person who started the company took the risks of it failing and should therefore receive the benefits of it succeeding start your own business or find another job if you don't like what you are being paid
Isaiah Adams
Their profit margin is few percent, low tens, sometimes single digits. That should tell you everything about the fairness of your pay.
Camden Martin
>heir profit margin is few percent, low tens, sometimes single digits. That should tell you everything about the fairness of your pay. LOL
>The average CEO-to-worker pay ratio for the 168 companies included in this report stands at about about 70-to-1, with some CEOs making more than 300 times the median salary of their employees – just in cash (base pay, bonuses, profit sharing, etc.). Many CEOs receive substantial stock/option grants and perks as part of their compensation, which can more than quadruple their total annual pay.
Of course employers extract surplus value from wagies. You're renting yourself as a slave to make profit for someone else. All work is basically whoring yourself out.
Retarded turbo sheep. You think Gates and Bezos "deserve" their wealth? You're right about one thing though: every single job in a capitalist society works that way.
I just made an offer for 70k+ and they accepted. I was unemployed for close to two years before this, and I wasn't in software development.
Benjamin Williams
If purchasing an expensive CEO keeps companies afloat then nothing wrong is done.
Matthew Wilson
Also, the position is for entry level.
Ian Jones
Forget it OP. Trannies, immigration fetishists, gays and feminists have killed any possibility of class consciousness for the foreseeable future.
Xavier Diaz
ctrl-f "market"
No results. What the actual fuck, g. Your pay is generally not correlated with the value you provide. It is tied to your market value, e.g., what it would cost to replace you. The price is roughly determined by supply and demand. A $50k programmer is standard entry-level non-coastal pay. After 2-3 years of experience you will get up to $70-80k through raises (if the company wants to keep you) or by getting a new job. This is because the market for proven devs with 2-3 years of experience is more demand-heavy than entry-level devs (dime-a-dozen).
If you want your income to be tied to the value you provide, you have a few options: - Start your own business: really hard, max value - Join a company with an Employee Stock Option Plan (ESOP): easy, but requires massive talent or willingness to join a risky startup - Negotiate for a capless bonus tied to company revenue: generally hard, but easier if there's a precedent within your company; e.g., if the company hits 100% of its goal, you get 100% of your bonus, 200% for 200%, etc. - Negotiate for a direct revenue share: super rare so hard to negotiate for this
I run a decently sized dev shop, ask me anything.
Dominic Perry
What do you manage?
Luke Rivera
why would they not deserve the wealth of the companies they started?
James Phillips
>I run a decently sized dev shop, ask me anything. What meme frameworks are you guys using? Currently doing front-end, should I pick up back-end or is the extra stress not worth the pay?
not web, enterprise software. has to run on JVM. We use Kotlin. We don't use any enterprise Java frameworks.
lean toward ruby/python/C++ for internal tooling and automation.
in the distant past we've used Rails for some web projects.
I don't have enough experience in front-end to compare it to back-end. IMO stress is correlated with a lot of things other than front- vs. back-end. E.g., company culture, reasonableness of boss, coworkers you like, etc.
Easton Rodriguez
How is this a bad thing? Jeff bezos owns stock in Amazon and as the company grew (a direct result of his leadership), so did the value of his stocks. Why do you have a problem with that?
Caleb Williams
see
Gabriel Powell
>We use Kotlin. We don't use any enterprise Java frameworks. Ruski detected.
Christian Perez
Because they're not creating anything. They don't provide any value, they don't work. They just own the meams of production.
Kayden Allen
>Why do you have a problem with that? The employees have to piss in bottles so as not to waste time going to the bathroom. He is the richest man on the planet but he can't pay and treat the employees that make him the richest man on the planet fairly. That's what I have a problem with.
Josiah Price
They are not forced to work for Amazon.
Dominic Richardson
>creator of amazon >"they're not creating anything"
He kinda is. When a company abuses its employees for profit, other companies are forced to do the same to stay competitive. It's a race to the bottom that only government intervention or collapse of economy can really stop.
Dominic Torres
>company makes $200k a year off of you >expendable profit margin decrease are you ok?
Gavin Perez
lets say you have a company, and a guy comes along with years of experience in the field making business decisions that earn companies millions or billions of dollars. he works 14 hours a day making sure every part of a business is working as best as it can, and he is good at finding people who work just as hard lots of companies want this man to lead their company, and will pay top dollar for him how much do you pay him?
Zachary Rodriguez
Doesn't have to be (You), they can always hire someone else. If they can replace you with someone cheaper, like an outsourced developer in India, they will do it in a heartbeat and kick you to the curb.
>55 year old Maurice Johnston lives in Boston, by way of Cleveland. He has a Masters Degree in Plasma Physics from Dartmouth College, and a masters in Electrical Engineering and acoustics from Purdue University. He's worked over 10 years at Lockheed Aerospace & Aerodyne Research Corp. >homeless
They created said company, worked on its reputation over the years so future projects are easier to acquire. At the end of the day they lose the most when a project is not ready on deadline. There is a shitton of responsibilities at that level you only realize when you've been there. You may hire someone to do it for you later, but their mistake is your mistake.
Nathan Gray
Feel free to start your own company and pay your CEO peanuts. If they really don't do anything worth all that money, you'll blow all the competition out of the water using the funds you save.
Noah Taylor
America ... has created a 'civilization' that represents an exact contradiction of the ancient European tradition. It has introduced the religion of praxis and productivity; it has put the quest for profit, great industrial production, and mechanical, visible, and quantitative achievements over any other interest. It has generated a soulless greatness of a purely technological and collective nature, lacking any background of transcendence, inner light, and true spirituality. America has [built a society where] man becomes a mere instrument of production and material productivity within a conformist social conglomerate.
>How much money in profit am I making you? they'll not know the answer to this question in a job interview however, they will know the answer in your exit interview
Aaron Russell
Yeah, the project is worth $3 million but you aren't the only person on that project.
You also have the people there to support the team (HR, recruiters, finance people, legal) who have salaries and benefits and you have all the additional costs of running the company (rent, electricity, equipment).
Nicholas Bailey
>sure it's achievement, but it's not REAL achievement Just like REAL communism has never been tried, right?
William Wright
An active CEO is about 50% likely to run your business into the ground. A CEO who does nothing but put on the appearance of working hard is significantly more successful. CEOs aren't generally geniuses. They're narcissists. They suffer from the worst levels of Dunning Kruger and they're awful human beings. I can guarantee that if a company cut the salary for the CEO and all management by half, there would be no negative effects in the long run. In fact, you'll probably lose the worst managers, and will attract fewer money grabbing psychos to apply for the position.
>I can guarantee that if a company cut the salary for the CEO and all management by half, there would be no negative effects in the long run. In fact, you'll probably lose the worst managers, and will attract fewer money grabbing psychos to apply for the position. Start a business and try it. If you're right you'll make billions. And don't give any excuses now, you already *guaranteed* success.
This guy is depressed. Don't listen to this shit. Try to form a healthy relationship between your workplace if you really can't survive without a job.
Imagine actually asking the person who works HR ( probably for peanuts or whatever) that question. I would cross you off the list and end the interview in an instant. Like fuck off, I want to ask you about your hobbies or some generic question and be done with this. If we're gonna tackle capitalism, this is the wrong fucking room.
Jason Campbell
And just like your pseudo-intellectualism posted earlier, merely saying what you wish was true does not, in fact, make your words true.
Tyler White
do they just expect free shit on the backs of others
Cooper Campbell
Sure the capitalist may start the company and may work very hard in the beginning for it. I don't deny that and I don't deny that they shouldn't be compensated for it. But they're no longer working, they merely own the capital. The profits come off the labour of wagies. And did Bezos really contribute tens of billions worth of value to society? Or was it the army of slaves
Now imagine if the workers (note: not the state) directly owned and managed the company. All the profits would belong to those who actually work and produce value.
Henry Rogers
The difference is that other fields require a significant investment, both for the business to take off and to keep it running. In software all you need is some computers and some licenses, that you probably already have. Also, a programmer is much closer to the product to be delivered to the client than, say, a car engineer who has to make sure that a certain thing works well and then pass it over to his boss to use it as he needs it. Every programming project is different and has completely different demands that the programer has to take care of.
Zachary Morales
THANK YOU ROOF KOREANS
Hudson King
>Risk meme They're not risking that much user, mostly it's just excess wealth which will put them in no danger of insolvency and that they do not need to maintain their safety and comfort. If you're betting the house on your start-up, you're not a venture capitalist, you're in a tiny minority of capitalists in general, and in a very large majority of future-failures.
Meanwhile people taking a job at a fledgling company are taking on a huge amount of risk. They're risking that things will work out in a new town, city, state, or country. They're risking that you won't be a horrible abusive boss, that there won't be a toxic work environment, and that your company will even be there in a year and they'll still have a means of paying for food and shelter.
Odds are that all the capitalist is risking is a portion of his and his venture capitalist partners slush fund.
Dylan Smith
Their reasoning is that: one good idea plus years of effort of one person > years of effort of thousands of people.
Ryder Powell
kys
Isaiah Gray
but i'm making 500k writing java, this is the best job ever
Carter Brooks
I will be perfectly honest I believe socialism is better for most people, but I was born into an upper middle class family and am on track to move even higher in the economic ladder. Why should I value what's good for others over what's good for myself? Isn't that what socialists are doing too? They just try being moralfags about it but at the end of the day everyone just wants what's best for themselves.
Well it sounds like you'll still live to experience the climate disaster that the unchecked profit motive is incapable of even minimizing.
Kevin Myers
Unequal countries are shittier to live in. Also consider how (I don't have the specific data right now and I don't really know how to search it) it has been proven that there's a certain economic threshold upon which you stop becoming happier, the more money that you have. I believe this threshold was located when you stop worrying about paying bills (~middle class). So there you have it.
>at an interview again >seething from all recent rejections >accidentally talk about exploitation of devs >interviewer bitch asks me if i thinks its a good idea to talk about this at an interview, calling it inapproriate and "quite frankly, childish" >I figure i lost the job the second i opened my mouth so i just say "yes, damn right" >she rolls her eyes tells me the interview is over and that i am acting childish and naive, not understanding investment via profits etc. >i keep pushing it asking questions about investments and setting precedents that human lives are worth less than profits >she lets me rant for a bit then picks up a phone as if calling security >i start to panic, realizing what ive done >a thought occurs >"especially true for women. Let me tell you my sister got exploited blabla" >i dont have a sister, jusr making shit up desperately >good god! the appeal to feminism seems to have calmed her down >i start quoting non existent statistics about powerplays made by white men to control women in software jobs, how my "sister" was blackmailed, sort of, etc. >after half an hour i run out of material >"it takes a real man to do what you did today" >fuck, did i actually get the job??? >"i can tell youre a real man because your a feminist" >*nods* >end the interview on a strong note having answered zero technical questions or gotchas this was on friday, do you ill get a callback?
Connor Wilson
depends on how hot you are
Jason Ortiz
>In software all you need is some computers and some licenses I'll take it, you never worked a day in your life.
>much closer if the higher ups jobs are unnecessary, you should be able to start a company and only employ devs. this way, you could be more efficient. It is up to you too take the steps necessary.
Brody Sullivan
>The point is you are expendable. I wouldn't hire someone like him in the first place. Anyone who thinks they deserve a special snowflake sticker for every commit when they literally just clocked that they are no more than an asset for a company clearly doesn't have the common sense needed for any sort of job. That's the way the world's always worked and it isn't going to change.
Xavier Ross
>create a business >capitalists aren't creating anything
Even Warren Buffett comes to work at over 80 years old has benefitted mankind more than you can ever even dream of.
>they're not actually risking anything sure, no business has ever left someone in financial ruin because it failed. Never happened. Not once.
Lincoln Walker
>read a book >no, not those books, the ones that affirm my worldview of course >what are you, stupid ?
Matthew Jones
This isn't a complaint against capitalism, but against nature. It's not capitalism fault we humans need shelter and food. If the lion don't hunt he starve, as do you.
Juan Bennett
>i wish too consume only >why am i forced to labour to create something as well ? this is unfair
ladies and gentleman, the proletariat.
Juan Bell
I spent 4 years on bachelors and 2 more on masters, and currently manage a team of programmers for approx $250k/y. My work is not tangible, I simply philosophise, write pseudocode on whiteboards, interview people, and boss people around. I don't feel abused.
I mean, everyone has to know his place, not every programmer deserves to be privileged. After all, this profession is chatting on a keyboard.
Austin Hughes
ok start a company with that business model its not illegal
Ryder Perez
MORE (clap) FEMALE (clap) VAMPIRE OVERLORDS (clap)
This sounds unbelievable and like the kind of stories that are usually made up to rile people up. That said, women are hypocritical trash, so I want to believe it.
Jaxon Gutierrez
Yes. From her personal cell. For dinner.
Easton Torres
You're part of the professional managerial class, distinct from the proletariat. Essentially the well-payed mercenaries of class warfare, you interact with workers and exert downward pressure and control so the real boss doesn't have to, acting as a barrier to absorb some lower class resentment and evangelize for an exploitative system that's granted you some privilege, bootlicker.
Joseph White
Typing random words is different from forming sentences. I've found my niche and am taking full advantage of it.
If you don't take every opportunity, you will forever be a dumb, inconsequential poor worker. Really, go ahead and prove you are not to be commanded.
James Hernandez
maybe you should work on your reading comprehension cause u just proved his point with that post.
Jonathan Moore
What point exactly? That I'm not proletariat? Of course I'm not. Neither were engineers (read: certified engineers with academic background) in the Second World. Modern programmers are to software engineers what Engineers were to mechanics in the Second World. Don't be surprised you get treated like shit.
Owen Watson
>Modern programmers are to software engineers what Engineers were to mechanics Flip it around, I meant programmers -> software engineers mechanics -> engineers
Bentley Gray
>ask them this question "So you're offering me a salary of $50k. How much money in profit am I making you? See if they tell you. that's a really good way to not get hired literally anywhere
Jackson Martin
nobody ITT knows what they're talking about
Hudson Gutierrez
>Invest thousands into buttcoin >Over the years those thousands turn into millions >You don't deserve that money
Julian Gutierrez
>That I'm not proletariat Yes, but more importantly that you are an asshole who thinks highly of himself simply because he isnt at the bottom of the pyramid.
Ayden Green
but then again, he spent a lot of time getting educated to not be at the bottom. Of course you are more valuable if you exert skills which go above the average taxi driver. And did he merely pass college because he was given that or because he worked for it ? During that time, taking a lower standard of living than blue collar types in order to gain more afterwards. Seems fair to me. Once again, you wanna get there, the path is open to you. If you are too lazy (and you are as you try to justify never improving over the average Taxi driver), don't complain to the ones that are willing to make that effort.
Adam Jenkins
user you already admitted in your first post that all of your work is just providing a loose organizational framework for workers and employing delegated authority (interacting with workers so the real boss doesn't have to, acting as a barrier between worker and owner to absorb worker frustration)
Now you're evangelizing an exploitative system because it's granted you some privilege. I know these words hurt the sense of worth the capitalist class has granted you by being such a good helpful boy, but you've still proved them right with your posts.
Henry Rogers
this whiny faggot bitch. it's always someone else's fault also WHY WON'T ANYONE PUT MY NEEDS OVER THEIR OWN NEEDS? IM SPECIAL!
Why are u talking about taxi drivers when he works for a (what it sounds like) modern company. U think all those programmers under him have less education/experience then him?
The point is that for large companies managers have simply the job to direct the flow of money to resources, that includes the workers. His job may be required but there is no need for the pay discrepancy. But by creating a false hierarchy the stock owners can justify keeping wagies in the cagies.
Andrew Scott
How he got there doesn't have much of a bearing on his function in the system. Do you realize how disingenuous you're being when you say the path to management is open and all lower-paid workers are simply too lazy? There isn't room (or access) in the system for everyone to be a manager, because they're just a middleman that can only comprise a small percentage of the workforce. An increase in competition for management positions doesn't create a need for more managers, nor does it devalue the labor of non-managers and justify their exploitation.
Noah Jackson
If you withhold your skills, they'll hire pajeets instead. The pajeets will then proceed to fuck up the company, either destroying it altogether or getting the senior management fired. See Boeing.
Either way it a win. The beauty of this is they can't steal knowledge you keep in your head.
Jeremiah Watson
>ask them this question "So you're offering me a salary of $50k" If I was at an interview for a developer position and they were offering me 50k, I would leave long before asking any questions. Maybe you're so salty because you're a retard who worked for peanuts and let yourself get taken advantage of.
Gabriel Ward
It says "wage-slavery" not work. Socialists are not against work. In fact, work is what makes a human, according to Marx.
labour is assigned a certain value by the market. And there is lower value and higher value work. There is a hierarchy.
If all the management does, is too make decisions (spoiler: it's not) and the company thrives as a result, then it was worth exactly what the market alloted it to be. And obviously, we all can't be managers. You can only rise in the pyramid, if your skills are better than your those of your competitors. That might be merely the power of persuasion or something minor, but it still puts you above the rest. So yeah, it's about being better, which you can become at your own making. Steve Jobs wasn't born leading Apple, you know ?
If you wish too work for a company with smaller management, you are freely invited to do so.
Once again. you are also invited to create your anarchist utopian company where everyone is given the same voting rights, responsibilities, privilidges and payment. See how that works out for you.
