Why are european programmers so underpaid?

I can't

This data doesn't say shit though. It doesn't take the job position into account.

oh cool, I'm making above average

SAP

sadly

> average 45k$
> mfw i earn 100k$ in netherlands

Does your company currently hire?

Here in the Netherlands there is the idea that EVERY starter should earn like 2000 to 2600 euro a month. Regardless of what you studied.
And that people who are specialists should only earn double that at max.
People who earn triple that are rarer and must be amazing.

The bright side is that nobody truly gets poor, but nobody with a job gets rich either.
The only way to break the cycle is start your own business. Or becoming a freelancer even.

We're being flooded by middle-eastern and african engineers. You thought that was a meme?

>people complain about being underpaid here
kek

>guaranteed no-questions-asked-for-14days return policy?
Europe doesn't have that though, the default question is whether you have broken the thing or not.

They do. Its a large bank, doubt there is too much discrepancy between different banks. I am a senior software engineer, just to denote the level.

Nobody needs to be swimming in cash as long as we all prosper. Unless they use the money for business, then it is cool.

sums it up nicely

The money is there though. We just get underpaid.

Stop shilling idiot. For example, to be a "kennismigrant" in the netherlands you usually earn even more than what others do, otherwise you don't even get a visa.

besides, bloody h1b he?

Well duh... It's meant as: you order something, don't want it when it arrives, can send it back no-questions-asked for 14 days.

Based kneejerk Marxists

Earning anything north of 5k a month as base salary will give you a very comfy, very happy life regardless. More than that has diminishing returns.

>tfw Canada
>tfw our pants (amerilards) make twice as much

>most overinflated property market in the world
>toronto rent is now higher than london, uk
lol, I want to die
currently applying to ~5 jobs in america every week trying to get out of canada

>what aboutism

He asked a fucking question hes not even insulting europe you fucking sperging retard.

South California and Western Washington WAY tip the scale in the US. Your average programmer wage anywhere else is going to be 10-40k less elsewhere in the US.

which is why cities should be compared, not tiny european countries compared to all of america averaged. the netherlands is less than half the size of california.

Europeans have no concept of how big the US is. Its why they constantly go on about public transport and the like. They just have no perception of how much of an absolute unit the US is.

I bet the influx of immigrants actually depresses wages.

yea I started writing a long post about why european public transit just doesn't work in america but I lost interest and wrote this instead, it's obvious to anybody familiar with both regions and I don't feel like arguing with other people about it. you can have decent city center transit but you end up needing a car anyways, and there are pretty serious demographic problems in the usa that make public transit undesireable overall. europeans will understand when climate migration starts getting serious.

Yep. The us in the coming decades will likely fracture any way, that is the most peaceful solution that can be gained likely.

I really just like that we have lots of forest and wildlife left due to all the room. I hate much about here but that, I really like.

it does, it only really boosts gdp due to saddling immigrants with debt and boosting the population outright. I live in canada now and the effects of immigration on things like pricing/wage ratios has been completely absurd. cities toronto and vancouver, are actually shrinking right now of canadian born canadians because all of the ratios have gone insane from immigration and nobody can afford it unless they were born rich or their parents gave them a house early. overall toronto and vancouver are rapidly growing cities though due to immigration outpacing canadian born canadians moving out by so much. rents in toronto jumped almost 10% yoy in 2019.

the US data is obviously skewed since silicon valley exist, it would be interesting to see how the data looks without taking them into account ,as it would be more representative of the actual average.

bunq?

Yeah no, those immigrants are just sitting on welfare and are irrelevant to IT sphere. Immigrants that going to compete with you for a job going to US where they'll get paid more.

Wrong.

If it werent for inmigrants a lot of the Basis of Europan economy would collapse, for example all the cultivars in France would be unviable because theres simply not enough French people willing to work there, and without inmigrant labor even with European economical help it will all be unfeasible.
Same for olive oil in Spain and several other cultivars, and dont be short sigthed and think that this doesnt hold importance, European economy is not factorial based like the U.S or China, Europe doesnt have the infrastructure for that,Europe is a big exporter of high quality items, like Olive oil,ham, wine and several other luxury items, but if economy went the antiinmigrant route it would simply collapse unable to compete agaisnt markets like China who can do everything cheaper and got hold of a lot of important raw material that ar simply too scarce in Europe.
Also doesnt help that Europe needs qualified workers but were only producing people with 1 or 2 careers but who lack the industry certificates. There was a extremmely big shortage of Agile and Scrum personel in Europe 4 yars ago, because althoug we have tons of engineers there were barely any who had those kind of certificates, and same goes for Sap, and several others, so in the end Europe has being importing quite a lot of certified Americans paying then way over 100k just to fill those job positions.

It's almost as of different countries have different economies, who would've fucking guessed

Yes so let's have immigration and the guaranteed collapse and destruction of europe in a few decades for slightly better temporary short term economic prospects!

Holy fuck kill yourself you soulless Jew.

coping europoor

Russia and China has great public transport despite being larger than US.

Because its not worth paying 90k a year to some idiot who spends most of their time on reddit and instead of writing any code just copies everything from stackoverflow

You should look at how public transport that you consider "great" is set up, where it goes, to what city centers, the amount and degree in which people are spread out etc.

Come drive through Kentucky some time and tell me public transport would work here.

tfw making less than $7k a year because eastern yurop

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I can't comment on russia but china is completely different and isn't really comparable
>brand new megacities
>highly dense urban housing, no suburbs and bad service to countryside
>cheap labor to build projects, government can do whatever it wants and strip any land rights it wants, completely collective planning and funding
>great transit inside megacities and between megacities, terrible everywhere else
>megacities mostly lie on a coastal line and have incredibly high numbers of potential passengers
>flights are always delayed
china's model can work for maybe the new england area cities and west coast usa some day, but right now it just doesn't make a lot of sense. rapid rail between main cities is just not as useful and flexible as flights, and only a handful of american cities can really use the inner city transit china has. and those cities already have older systems and a lot of existing structures to work with, not a clean slate.

Please start using the correct spelling of immigrants (it's iMmigration not iNmigration) can't fucking pay attention the text, it just sounds retarded or sg a 5yo would write

This

israel is not a legitimate state

Dude he only wrote it once and "n" is right next to "m" on a keyboard. I hate this buzzword and therefore rarely use it but you're fucking autistic.

theres no correct spelling.

U sound like a kid who is not smart enough to realize the joke u are.

Why dont u write proper english using Thy.

Dont talk to me ever again, ur the kind of person who can only follow rules and enforce rules not someone i have any interest in having an exchange with.

Actually sorry, my bad. I tried to ctrl+f but something went wrong and only shown one result. I can see now that your annoyance justified.

>t. reinventing the wheel

Programmers in my division are allowed reddit to cope with the evercrushing deadlines you frozen stick of fetus juice

Cope harder

Your mom's's autistic, he misspelled every single instance of the word.

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US isn’t that big lol, commutes are though.

No worries senpai

Read the post above yours dingus.

>us isnt that big

lmao. Drive from Kentucky to even South Florida and say that, let alone going to California. This is interstate driving as well.

>Dont talk to me ever again

That can be arranged faggot

he already apologized, he is domesticated like that.
So so so sorryyyyy sir i know im just a fucking useless peassant follow the rules sir i know im just a classless boy who doesnt speak French i apologize sir so so sorry.

That was not me but yea, no worries senpai

>US isn’t that big
driving north cali to south is further than edinburgh to paris
driving north texas to south is further than copenhagen to zagreb

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There are places with far higher taxes that have less household debt per net income on that chart though, actually most of the countries below the US have far higher effective tax rates, while there are countries above it that have similar effective tax rates to the US.
Denmark is the top of the list for multiple reasons. One is that they have high taxes combined with a lack of government spending. The government has a very low level of debt, they could engage in aggressive spending with the goal of providing fast tax-cycled revenue sources for the people or the like but don't. The economy is also stagnant at the moment, which leads to 0% interest rate mortgages and even some negative ones being introduced which increases how much debt people feel comfortable taking on. Also, the 15% mandatory spending into your own pension fund isn't included as available in net income, so Danish net incomes appear to be smaller than they are.

And that's only half the distance compared to walkimg 1 full circle around an average US citizen. The US is huge, man

Nobody is jealous of the U.S lol
Canada is the greatest country

Europeans make me laugh when going on about their absolutely shite public transport. However, the cities in the US could have euro tier or beyond public transport. It's not that hard to get inner city loops set up if you're willing. When most people shit on the US for their public transport it's about their god awful metro systems rather than transport between cities.

Yuropoor Senpai I am not even American but you really have to cut down on the seething. It's perfectly fine to be jealous of American tech worker wages, you don't have to resort to sour grapes.

I am jealous of school safety

Your humor is pretty shite

It really isn't if you're in tech.

I am a leaf and easily 3/4 of my graduating class works in San Francisco bay area because Canadian wages are so shit.

I actually am not jelly of the wages there. I like having the health benefits, and that is part of the reason for lower wages here. I genuinely think Europe is pretty great. We have like... 1 poisonous snake, and that's nornally not even lethal, only if you're ill or a child, or allergic or whatever. Climate is great, there's healthcare, we are able to carry our asses to the supermarket and back on our own 2 feet.

I've been across euroland and the public transport ranged from passable to absolutely horrid, normally being substandard.

another leaf here, everybody with talent and ambition in canada moves to the usa. they only come back later in life when they've made money.

haha lmao americans trying to piss of europeans. What a sad attempt this is.
The only people that want to live in the USA are from shitholes like South america or africa. To the rest of the world you are big pile of steaming shit.

>I like having the health benefits, and that is part of the reason for lower wages here
it's not, lol. health benefits are a result of higher taxes, which you can simulate in america by putting a portion of your income to health insurance premiums. also nearly all white collar jobs include health benefits, which are in addition to take home pay and increase the pay gap between america and europe. the people who get shit on in america are the poor and non-working, otherwise white collar workers are much better off.

every western and northern european country has net negative immigration with the usa, more leave for america than the other way around. the number is the highest in high income brackets and millionaires, especially from countries like france and the uk.

What are some nice things USA has?

>high paid tech jobs
>Nature
>?????

can't think of anything else

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ITT people who don't work for a hedge fund or Jane Street

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low cost of living, cheap goods, high mobility in moving to very different cities and areas, a booming economy with every sector available to work in, the best schools in the world, many of the most important and best companies in the world, access to talent, the best startup scenes in the world

biggest drawbacks are boring cultural destinations and limited travel options for short term trips

Hm didn't know that. I may go there in the future to work for a few years, but rn Europe is good. I still like how no animals have the ability to kill you (for the most part, I guess Norway has like 2 packs of wolves lol), and the modesty of ppl here compared to the US

Doctors and lawyers are paid well in the US as well. If you're an academic, outside of very few, you're fucked though. If you do anything not valued by the market and your job is there just to make ends meet while you do that, you're fucked. Not to mention the cultural issues the US has, or the shit quality of food unless you pay out the arse, or the shit cuisine in general and how difficult it can be to get even basic ingredients outside major cities.

i agree with what you said but every country has good jobs if you look for them. Life isn't just work ya know.
this

The cost of living in the US varies a lot, as do wages. However there isn't that much mobility or even job opportunities in a fair few areas Vs other countries. Best schools in the world is highly subjective depending on whether you want research or coursework and what combination of subjects you want to do. That's also tertiary, for K-12 it's just outright wrong. The economy isn't exactly booming either. It's not the worst, but it's certainly not booming. As for importance of the company you work for, I don't think many people care at all.

US has much better nature than Europe if you don't count Russia. I want to move to US because I want to live in Smalltown with good community close to the woods. But apparently they're all opiate junkies now.

>I want to live in Smalltown with good community close to the woods. But apparently they're all opiate junkies now.
move to the niagara escarpment line in ontario.
beautiful nature, rolling hills, safe prosperous society. but high housing costs.

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What's the y scale, and what does it even display?

it's wage to household debt ratio, the most common metric used for personal (non government) debt burden
data.oecd.org/hha/household-debt.htm

Why would Europoors be in debt? I was told they had free college and health care????

Net disposable income to debt ratio, not wage. They're two very different things. The main thing to be wary of is a lot of countries have 10-20% pension contributions on top of wage, or forced wage sacrificing, and this doesn't count towards net income.

look at how disposable income is defined. all of that is accounted for. this is the most commonly used debt metric.

Housing, is it given out free where you live?

But I thought housing there was dirt cheap????

America lost the Vietnamese war.