Is Java so 2010? Why are hippie web startups avoiding it like the plague?

PHP >>> Java

>Why are hippie web startups avoiding it like the plague?
because it's trash.

>Why would you use Java for web?
ever heard the term "backend"?

Productivity 100% with Java no boilerplate code just business logic

Startups that know what tehy are doing are still choosing java because it has better performance than node.js, c# and go and a richer ecosystem

If the startup you are working for uses node.js, run away

AHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA

techempower.com/benchmarks/#section=data-r18&hw=ph&test=query

Java is good for large projects. Ruby and Node.js are better for getting an MVP up and running stat.

I don't see why people would just not use PHP. It seems like it's easier to use it than reinvent the wheel with node.js

Maybe because PHP sucks a fat cock and is as consistent as the turds of the prajeets who idolize it

phpajeets btfo

Microsoft finally caught up and does everything Java did better.
Business does not give 2 shits about "muh portability".

>why won't people use this slow piece of shit that doesn't even have built in support for websockets or asynchonous tasks because its state only lasts throughout the request

fucking retard, maybe build something that's more complex than a basic CRUD webshit app

php is dead, kiddo. thank god better tools exist nowaday.

This. The more unstable your business, more stable should be your tech stack. Java or C# are the only sane choices.

Linux servers are cheaper, and at the very early stages of the company, that actually matters. Don't even mention .NET running on Linux, it's way too unstable for now.
Can't argue about C# being nicer than Java, but Java might have a slightly better ecosystem.

>Linux servers are cheaper, and at the very early stages of the company, that actually matters. Don't even mention .NET running on Linux, it's way too unstable for now.
>Can't argue about C# being nicer than Java, but Java might have a slightly better ecosystem.
I would argue that ease/speed of development is much more important than server costs for a startup, which is why C# is so popular these days.

At web companies, even though Java is easy, if you use it you have to have front end devs and back end devs with different expertise. With node.is, everyone is writing JavaScript.

Up until very recently, the tooling for java has been terrible. Eclipse is fucking awful compared to Visual Studio for C#. IntelliJ IDEA saved us from hell (thank you based jetbrains), but the stigma still remains. People REALLY hate eclipse, for good reasons.

Java is pretty boilerplate heavy, and despite the garbage collection, a ton of common classes of bugs carry over from C (namely the null pointer). Newer languages aim to eliminate these kinds of bugs. Kotlin does a good job of this. Kotlin is supported as the defacto language on Android by Google moving forward. Startups are always going with the hip and new, so theyve all moved on to Kotlin. For web back end, Spring also supports Kotlin now.

I do like Java, but the industry is moving on. There are some serious downsides to Kotlin: more complex grammar leads to way longer builds and tougher code reviews.

I never understood how those code monkeys can open their shitty, bloated java ides, and write code in them. Like every time you open up a project there are a million popups, unneeded boxes and a tiny window for code which lites up in all kind of colors until you put up a semicolon. How can people live like this?

Eclipse is dead. Try intellij -- it's great

Every real coding job requires you to use the development tools of the company.

>People REALLY hate eclipse, for good reasons

Such as? I use eclipse daily and I dont hate it.

Why are they using Node.JS instead?

>More complex grammer
I kinda skipped right past Java and have been working in kotlin for about a year now; I can see how it would impact build time but doesn't it cut down on a lot of java boiler plate? So wouldn't code review be a bit easier?

Also kinda related if anyone knows a sane intro to coroutines for kotlin blease help me. I'm used to plain and simple async/await.. then I started reading up on coroutines and wanted to blow my brains out. Contexts?? Scopes?? Launchers?? Different threads intermingled inside each other, never knowing what thread a method is going to dump you on... Fuckin nightmare, is it not as complicated as it seems or should I just say fuck it and continue using rxjava?

C# only runs on Windows Servers

For pajeets maybe.

Cheaper to use your front end devs who already know js as backed devs as well.

Whats wrong with node js

Kotlin is a dead meme language. Find a new career.

Dot Net runs on a lot more than Windows.

Ok retard

.

This is a common argument, but I find it absurd. Languages like C#, Java, Kotlin are extremely similar. The productivity difference for the "average" team can't be more than 10%. In fact, we haven't had a productivity jump brought by a language for many, many years. Compare Fortran and C, for example.
As such, there are way more important arguments than "ease of development" when dealing with modern stacks (and yes, Java is modern)

This

node.js backend being faster to develop for example is bullshit

The nodejs meme is because the manager can now put the front-end monkey to shit code on the backend too, while still paying 1/3 of what he would pay to a proper programmer.

java is fucking retarded
kotlin is the future

Kotlin is a meme go shill your shit language somewhere else

because all the java coders are at FANG now

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There are plenty of other implementations of the JDK, such as Corretto, which is maintained by Amazon.

because they're scared about the type system and can't wrap their minds around this """compilation thing""" you have to do before launching the program.

>Up until very recently, the tooling for java has been terrible.
I don't know what kind of bizarro java world you live in but intelliJ community has been around for at least 10 years so very recently is a weird way to put it.

Intellij is garbage

That's the opposite of the point that the original comment was making though.
As for your opinion, you're entitled to it but it's a pretty bad one.

What do you mean? What Issue 'mvp and stuff'?

Because Java tried to serve two purposes, both of which became deprecated.
The first is universality - "compile" a program once, run anywhere. Java's approach to this was compiling it to bytecode and having a virtual machine running this bytecode. The VM, of course, would be installed on the host and compiled/installed for that specific architecture.
The second thing Java tried to solve was a revamp of C++'s object-oriented design. Java strived for true, "safe" OO, but it ended up being a verbose and clusterfucky language that crippled you in unnecessary ways. Case in point: no pointers allowed. Another example: Polymorphism limited you to inherit one class at a time. Put short, Java was mediocre at best.
Also, python did its own job better than Java.

>Rust above C
NOOOO CBROS WHAT NOW?!

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At least it's not C#.

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I wonder how CS 101 students can write such rants and feel smug about it in the face of the absolute supremacy of java everywhere that isn't crud startup webshit

wrong
java is more used than python
Everything you wrote is wrong. Get a job.

You need a license for Oracle's JDK. OpenJDK is now identical to Oracle's offer and requires no license. Other than that, there are other JDK vendors, with free and paid options.

Keep your "facts" for yourself next time.

>Why would you use Java for web?
because rails, node, etc are too slow, but using c++ adds a lot more development time, and .net core does not have a guaranteed future on linux if nadella leaves

This. And compared to ruby, python, etc, the Java ecosystem has an abundance of high quality libraries for a lot of useful and non-trivial stuff

> inherit limitations

Clearly you've never interfaced before.

>much more important than server costs for a startup
it's not necessarily the licensing costs, though that is important later on as costs increase
windows server deployment is much harder to automate than linux, and when shit hits the fan, problems take much longer to solve
server costs might be chump change if you have VC funds, but maintaining proper licensing is not easy for startups with no IT department to manage purchasing or deployment

>kotlin
gtfo with your synthetic sugar
this. Problem is almost all universities teach old Java versions. Java 8 and especially Java 10+ are comfy af.

Java is the ideal backend programming language

Java toddlers can't into monadic C# programming. Sad!

More complex grammar = more ways to write the same thing = more confused devs not on the same page as their peers = slower build times = slower code reviews with more bikesheddding

It's the same with C++ (though Kotlin is not nearly as bad yet). C++ is a kitchen sink language and stroustrup just added every little feature he can think of. So when you write just about anything, you can bet there are about 10 million other ways you could have written it. Engineers WILL argue over this shit, even if your code works and is efficient. It wastes time. "Simple" grammars like C and Java have huge hidden benefits in that devs don't waste time in review arguing about style or structure too much.

you sound butthurt.

The coroutines API and documentation is an absolutely incoherent abomination. I had the exact same experience as you.

Because oracle and their ultra greed.
Because it has become a messy language.
Because there's so much more choice now.
Because it's hard/expensive to get decent programmers.
Most language "run anywhere" just as well, and usually even better these days.
It has some perks, but I can understand people shying away from it.
t. once professional java programmer.
I'd hate to see it die, but part of me thinks it deserves it.

>Most language "run anywhere" just as well, and usually even better these days.
any examples?

Lack of mobile support.

>should I just say fuck it and continue using rxjava?
Bingo. Congratulations, you realized that Kotlin's a meme.

Bunches meme shit that is impossible to write in is faster than php. Meanwhile, spring is slightly slower than Phalcon.

arguing about which programming language is the best is ultimately a pointless exercise
a programmers job is to create solutions to business problems, not waste time learning trivia by heart

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Are you fucking stupid? Interfaces don’t do shit besides declaring that you will implement a particular function, they don’t help share code. Fucking PHP traits are closer the multiple inheritance.

>Why would you use Java for web?
Because of Vert.x. Using Vert.x from Kotlin is just ugly, and the methods don't even have inline documentation. The "it can be used from multiple languages" is technically true, but also a meme.

>async/await
If you're already used to C#, I would advise against betting all your chips in Kotlin. I've already done so, coming from having developed for .NET Framework (Windows only) for several years as a MSCE, and I'll tell you right now that the development experience is way inferior in Kotlin than it's for C#, by a BIG margin. This goes for the language, the standard library, and the community libraries/frameworks. Also, fool-proof tools.
Of course, I'm speaking about web development (with ASP.NET Core), and maybe Windows desktop programs (WPF). If you do mobile "apps" in Android, then obviously use Kotlin. If you do desktop GUI programs in Linux, then I don't know wtf I would use.
Today in Linux, using Rider and .NET Core things just work.

Talking from a webdevelopment perspective, scripting languages are pretty much all easily migrated from one system to another without major issues. And they're very fast and flexible these days, so speed or scalability is not a real issue anymore.
With gui engines like QT it's getting very easy to make desktop apps that run on any platform. Electron is also a popular one.
C# now also works on other systems due to mono these days.
Modern languages like Go also come with features that make cross platform compiling easy.
And, coming from a background with Java, I remember how often something wouldn't work on the servers while it worked fine in the development environment. Granted, those were often huge applications, but it still happened too much for something that was supposed to "run anywhere". It required system dependent tinkering far too often.

It's verbose garbage.
>paying for a programming language
You do know OpenJDK exists right?

>better performance than go
No it doesn't. They're like the same speed.

>If you do desktop GUI programs in Linux, then I don't know wtf I would use.
JavaFX. Comfy af ever since Gluon has been responsible for developing it.
>It's verbose garbage.
Give us an example.

That depends a lot on the use case. The bigger your application is and the longer it runs, the better Java performs. Go usually shines when it comes to startup speed and memory footprint but then there's also GraalVM and it's becoming better and better. I like Go though.

>implying vert.x is difficult to write in

Retard

as much as i love PHP, no this is incorrect.

Java fx is so bad that they still teach swing in most schools

Confession: I really like programing Java 8 with Lombok.

Fuck you, I love eclipse. Retards just don't know how to configure it right.

Fuck off, shill. Seriously, JetBrains faggots are worse than vegans.

Java runs better on Linux than C#

Which language does anime use

Why are companies having trouble upgrading their JVMs to 8?

My org just refuses to switch from Java 7. Aren't new JVMs always backward compatible with old Java bytecode?

I remember installing a firefox extension that would tell you what the site was built with and my bank's website uses java apparently.
I forgot the name of the extension, does anybody know the name?

Don't make me post the benchmarkgame screenshot.
The reality is they're pretty equivalent, with each pulling ahead in specific workloads, and core is still getting faster on every release.

That probably just uses JSP or Java applets

Java > PHP | Ruby
C# > Java, at least as soon as it becomes fully cross platform

Would like to know too.

I like C# as a language, but Microsoft's workflows are a complete mess. Doesn't help that you have to relearn them nearly ever major release. Makes me feel bad for the ASP.NET users.

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There was only one big change from old shitty ASP to glorious new ASP Core. They've changed some things, but it's hardly relearning shit on every release. More like a few instances of "This method is deprecated, use Y instead".

Java is depracated in favor of Kotlin and Scala.
Scala is already dominating in finance and Kotlin is slowly replacing Java codebases.

Java's only edge over C# is its ecosystem. Its still a no-constest in Java's favor.

C# is a better language but the tooling and community hasn't caught up yet. Give it a few years though and that may change.

You're wrong. Interfaces allow default implementations.