Are .net and c# a trap?

C#/.net jobs*

>learn C# on linux
literally why?

Just fucking install Mono, are you retarded?

Just because I like the language. I don't plan on doing anything with it, really.
Yeah I did and I keep getting assembly reference errors.

Well how are you learning it with anyway? Installed dotnetcore sdk, vs code, then followed random c sharp tutorials?

Pretty much, yes.

make sure you have a beefy internet connection. with that much telemetry it could saturate the wires

C# Internet Defense Force here.

Are you retarded? This is some random interface package for using the perfectly free .net core debugging API. They use it in Visual Studio, so of course it's not totally free itself. If they gave it away, they'd be giving a pretty good chunk of work to competitor paid IDE vendors. They allow its use in VS Code as well, which is cross platform. No Windows required. Other C# IDEs have made their own debugging libraries. You can make your own too if you're planning on selling a C# debugger.

Everything decent has telemetry. Without it, companies have no idea what to make better. You can shut it all off with an env variable if you don't like it.

This doesn't even have anything to do with dotnet core except it's a nonfree library which is not included by default. Dotnet core remains completely free.

Dotnet webshit companies are deploying on Linux now that it has first class support and literally just werks.

No need for that. Core is free, has full support, and better tooling.

this

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>Dotnet webshit companies are deploying on Linux now that it has first class support and literally just werks.
Then why the fuck am I getting "Are you missing `System.Windows.Forms' assembly reference?" and none of the solutions work?

>Dotnet webshit companies are deploying on Linux now that it has first class support and literally just werks.
deploying, that's the keyword. they want to keep developers locked to windows and linux is just a way to push azure
nice false flag, nobody cares about desktop ui shit. you can always use a random framework for that

>nice false flag, nobody cares about desktop ui shit. you can always use a random framework for that
But I can't follow online tutorials...

Yes, obviously. Microsoft has been pulling this shit for decades, you'd have to be retarded to believe that suddenly they've changed for no particular reason. Especially with consideration of how absolutely effective their strategy has been.

What are you trying to make? Windows forms is NOT cross platform, as it's welded to Windows COM at the hip.

I prefer VS, but you can do the whole cycle from Linux using VS Code or [IDE of your choice] or just a text editor and the dotnet CLI tool. I've done this a little bit, but god I just love VS for the refactoring tools. I hear Rider is fantastic too though.

Make a couple CLI applications first. Then make some webshit in asp core.

You just proved my point. Vs code and the whole crossplatform is just bait for azure+Linux deployment but still using windows because of the tools. Only a neet or reckless startup would use vscode or rider for a big project. Culture is everything in the programming world. It's what ruined Java. The analysis of any business would be that you need windows to have a dependable ecosystem and a true official debugger for that 0.1% bug that can kill your company in a day.

>you'd have to be retarded to believe that suddenly they've changed for no particular reason
They literally open sourced everything of consequence in dotnet and gave away their entire patent portfolio to the OIN, otherwise known as the Linux patent group.
They changed for a very particular reason. Namely, Nadella replaced Ballmer. The changes he made were to step away from the IBM/Oracle way of doing things, which will eventually kill those companies, into the Amazon/Google way of doing things, which is the way forward. They can't go back now. The licenses and agreements they signed are binding. They don't care though, because Office and Azure are what have been making them money anyway. Is dotnet designed to plug into Azure? Of course, but it can plug into anything now. Nadella realized that vendor lock-in is a business model of the past. Nobody will use your closed shit when there's better open shit available. If they tried to fuck over the community they've worked for years now to foster a feeling of trust with, they'd find that trust dead overnight.

>Only a neet or reckless startup would use vscode or rider for a big project
Bullshit. I've seen big business using NPM. Motherfucking N P M, in business critical application deployments. Rider seems nice. I'd probably use it over VS if I was just starting out instead of gliding on 8 years of experience with it.
Microsoft doesn't make any money on Window's except in Office sales, and with them pushing Teams so hard that might go away too. The web version of Office is a bit limited still, but it does all the major stuff. I think Microsoft is beginning to think of Windows as a money pit more than a revenue driver.

You will all be put to the sword inshallah. filthy deviants

>Motherfucking N P M, in business critical application deployments.
Once again you prove to be a larping neet. That's absolutely 0 issues in using npm. It's about CULTURE and in JS the problem is amplified by bad standard lib and github CV. E.g. any dependencies your team uses could be pre approved, require a justification and have low dependencies itself, your teams could use an internal cached registry and updates would be gated/reviewed/approved and no foreign could would ever run without your knowledge. Zero issues (except using JS lel). Why are we even talking about this? Tangent much
>Microsoft doesn't make any money on Window's
Yeah that's why they don't try to vendor lock in everything to Windows. Oh wait, they do.
>think Microsoft is beginning to think of Windows as a money pit more than a revenue driver.
Sight I'm not even going to go there, fucking derailers.

you need more love

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one more (you) for you

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>you prove to be a larping neet
I'm posting from work on my phone right now.
>That's absolutely 0 issues in using npm.
lmao imagine believing this. I guess yarn was made for literally no reason then huh? The piece of shit is reasonably stable now, but that's not how it's been historically.
>Your team could just be literally perfect and never make a mistake and have a system of management that isn't insane
Who was the larping neet? Having reproducible builds is a pleasant surpris when I walk into a new job. Businesses hire lots of retards, especially for power positions. Getting a good process for development is nearly impossible. Good ideas get cargo culted and bike shedded to shit. This was the point I was getting at that seemed to sail clean over your head: Businesses don't have some "standard" of operation. They all work differently and often their processes are insane. Yes, I've worked for places where VS and Windows was mandatory. I've also worked for places where they didn't give a fuck. Your concept of "but nobody would use Rider!" isn't based in reality. I'm seeing most juniors preferring VS Code, though. VS is more powerful, but the learning curve is steeper and they just want to get shit done. I can appreciate that. I won't push them as long as the work is of a reasonable quality and gets delivered on time.
>Some shit about culture.
And what does the IDE of choice have to do with that? I've worked completely remotely with people who I've never met in person. I've never seen their machine, only their commits. How did they make that code? Did they use Visual Studio? Probably. Could they have uses emacs? Yep. It doesn't matter what they used. The IDE of choice is a non-issue.
>fucking derailers
This entire argument is based on your idea that Microsoft is still pushing Windows hard. They clearly aren't. You haven't given any evidence that they are, but I've given evidence that they don't care what platform dotnet devs use for dev and prod.

Thanks for the replies queermo
Traps were a mistake and you need a lobotomy

Why don't you love traps?

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>no idea what to make better.
Issues and pull requests on github do a good job.

Because one night during a hellish fever dream, the voice of God himself came to me and proclaimed:
>user no.72587930 is a gigantic faggot and traps are gay. Go forth my child and spread this message.
So basically stop posting please, your sexual preferences hurt my feelings and they're gross.

>I guess yarn was made for literally no reason then huh?
>Having reproducible builds
>Getting a good process for development is nearly impossible
yarn isn't a silverbullet and a bad process will make it as shit as npm, both can be fixed by.. surprise.. a good development process
>And what does the IDE of choice have to do with that?
languages like java and c# are a joke without an ide, all the interviews for c# i ever participated always end it up talking about the tooling and asking to work from a linux desktop would get you laughed at. remote or not. the culture that microsoft cultivated and keeps making the standard, that .net tooling and their ide is only first class on windows except for deployment. the silence and canned replies in those issues are very telling.
>This entire argument is based on your idea that Microsoft is still pushing Windows hard
the push is for a lock down to their platform and windows being a revenue driver has nothing to do with it, they could make it security patches only forever and still use the lock in powers they acquired by acting like thugs in the past decades

Awww. You need to take some medicine for your fever, you are starting to suffer from delusions. Here's some you can use at bed tonight. Have fun!

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>Without it, companies have no idea what to make better.
Except they made everything only worse

God I want this.

Most people quietly suffer instead of complain. Developer are notorious for this due to very submissive and introverted personalities being prevalent.

In what way? Everything seems to be constantly getting better.

cute outfits aside, it must suck being an azn girly boi, you don't pass for male and you can't play dressup all the time

In all ways everything gets exponentially worse.

>Everything seems to be constantly getting better.
What about the web?

>they'd be giving a pretty good chunk of work to competitor paid IDE vendors
Why should I care about who they think their competitors are?

>Without it, companies have no idea what to make better.
No, I will tell you exactly what to make better. Release the source code under the GPL. No telemetry necessary to figure that out.

>Dotnet webshit companies are deploying on Linux now
How are they deploying onto just a kernel? They probably need a C library, init system and other userspace components.

I thought we we're talking about Microsoft's recent behavior, not things in general. I'll reply in a general sense to your concerns though.

Some things have definitely got better over the last 30 years. Not all things have, but you should avoid fixating on what you lost or can't have. Appreciate what you've kept and gotten.

The web has gotten much better. More bandwidth, faster and more capable browsers, and FAR more content. Many websites are built like shit, slow as death, and packed full of spyware JavaScript. Okay, avoid them. Not hard. Some sites are almost perfect, but have ads or tracking on them. Okay, use uBlock and uMatrix. Not hard. If there's nothing you like, make it. Server rental is extremely cheap for what you can get. If you miss the old platforms, go to them. IRC is still alive and well, even as things like Matrix are slowly replacing it with something genuinely better.
Everything is awesome. Prove me wrong.

>If they gave it away, they'd be giving a pretty good chunk of work to competitor paid IDE vendors.
If it's free software it benefits everyone. And since yall like to say Microsoft is the Second Coming of Saint IGNUcius now why wouldn't they?
The logical answer is that they are still using Windows strategically as their walled garden. The world has moved on, free software rules the development world. I'm not asking for libre open source Office or Windows, only for development tools.
They keep saying they changed while keeping a firm foot at the old side of the border. And when you know their history you can't ignore that.

>Why should I care
That's just the reason why they do it. This isn't a conspiracy, or one move in some grand agenda. They don't want Jetbrains to use their debugging lib. That's all.
>Release the source code under the GPL
It is released. You can go compile dotnet without telemetry. Or you can verify that the env var switch to turn it off really works, and that telemetry is very limited and is only sent when the dotnet tools are run, not a dotnet application. You can verify that the "hey, this tool uses telemetry, set the env var or run with the no telemetry switch to disable this" message does in fact show for everyone.
And the debugging library is a LIBRARY. It's not included in dotnet. You are not obligated to use it.
>How are they deploying onto just a kernel?
Stallman pls.
Dotnet unironically can be deployed without an init or userspace components though, and can even be deployed without a kernel. The dotnet micro framework contains its own HAL for directly targeting microcontrollers. The license for this technology is Apache 2.0.

based psycho

No you don't. Get a grip and go outside after jacking off to normal heterosexual pornography.

>One stupid debugging API interface library that's not been touched in three years, that never exited preview, that everyone has already replaced in their own project, and has open alternatives, doesn't have a pure OSS license.
>Therefore, Microsoft is viciously defending their walled garden.

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Because System.Windows.Forms is only on Windows. Are you retarded?

javafren here, whats the oss debugger for csharp? whats vscode and rider using?? i asked Jow Forumscsharp or Jow Forumsdotnet cant remember a few months ago and they told me if i dont move to windows its pointless because vs there is way better so i gave up

>They don't want Jetbrains to use their debugging lib. That's all.
You don't get it, I know this and it's a shit explanation. I don't care if microsoft is trying to sabotage jetbrains if the result is they make things more difficult for me in the process. In my opinion, both of those companies can't go out of business fast enough. Just GPL the library and stop wasting my time.

You can use any debugger. LLDB works. You can write your own. Jetbrains did. The dotnet runtime is well documented. No, it won't be as fun as using an interactive debugger, but it works.
You could also stop being autistic and just use VS Code like everyone else. Is the experience as good as VS? No, that thing is a 200 ton gorilla, with a debugging experience unlike anything else I've used anywhere else. I rarely use these days, though.

Rant ahead: A debugger is an investigative tool of last resort, imo, and generally just getting a dump and tracing it will reveal the issue. No fancy ass features needed. If you find yourself leaning on a powerful debugger a lot, it's a sign that your tests, logging, or fundamental understanding of the language is weak.

Don't use the library if you don't want to. Nobody cares about your stupid ultimatum. Everything is perfectly usable without the lib, so the long and short of what you're doing, is bitching.

theres no interactive debugger on rider or vscode?

There definitely is. This whole thing is about people too autistic to use either.