Why would anyone switch to this garbage? X11 works fine

wayland basically is X12

Wayland needs a really good out of the box DE to entice people.

Exactly. Like my media player can read when I press the global shortcut to go to next track.

The DEs we have now are dedicating themselves to becoming compatible with it. GNOME is already there, and KDE is working on it. There's also Sway for the tiling window manager people.

>Wayland needs a really good out of the box DE to entice people.
swaywm, not even having a meme.

Because X11's issues run right to the core. There is no way to fix X11 without breaking backwards compatibility, and if you're going to do that, you may as well redesign the whole thing and actually get shit right.

Compositors and the protocol itself are designed in such a way that if it's being used correctly, tearing is impossible.

X11 absolutely in no way works fine. It's buggy as hell and it's slow and shitty as well as a massive security flaw (any graphical program can keylog you because there's no domain separation between windows).

That said, wayland somehow managed to be worst in every single fucking regard. It's absofuckinglutely amazing how hard they dropped the fucking ball. Amazing.

Correct, whereas the appropriate model is that the wm should dispatch the event to the media player, which should not be able to get every single keystroke.

Please list the technical issues you have with Wayland, because your post says absolutely nothing.
Fucking everybody seems to think they're an expert on display servers, just because they're used one before.

Yes, letting the Wayland compositor handle all shortcuts is a much better model.
It doesn't break the security model, allows the user to have full customisability, and solves the issue of collisions between multiple programs.
In my sway config, I have bindsym XF86AudioNext exec --no-startup-id lollypop --next

Wayland hate made me realize Jow Forums is retarded about Linux beyond ricing i3. Some people have got it in their mind that new = bad, maybe from systemd hate. The truth is X11 is a horrible Frankenstein of security issues and poor design. I don't agree with every design choice of Wayland but it's infinitely better than the decades old standard

Most sane and intelligent post i've seen today. Wayland is the future. Hell, it's the now as far as I'm concerned.

X11 at least works. Wayland doesn't. Fuck off with your garbage. Enjoy your entire system hardlocking in a way that you can't even change ttys to try to fix it every 10 minutes on the dot. Enjoy critical bugs not being fixed for decades. Enjoy nodrivers.
Just stop trying to shove this garbage down our throats.

>bring this stupid

user wayland is literally a freedesktop.org project

>Enjoy nodrivers
But all of the mesa drivers have excellent support for it. You're not actually using a non-FOSS driver, are you?
That's just fucking shameful.

not from a xephyr sandbox

I never got this shit to work

1. faster
2. more secure
3. no tearing
4. way easier to set up

dumb niggers can't fathom that linux is a server OS and needs to serve x11 to people

>retards who willingly bought novideo
Replace the positions of X11 and Wayland and your statement is now accurate. I've had GPU hardlocks in X11 that are no longer an issue with Wayland that can be solved with a couple minutes of patience. Fuck off with your FUD

> Xorg doesn't have GUI level isolation, so any running application can read your keystrokes.
That is a plain lie. E.g. you can activate "Secure Keyboard" in Xterm and you will be perfectly fine.
Most programs don't implement it but the feature is definitely available.
Also not one single hack has been done since 40 years via key stroke capturing. Why? All your programs you run on X are usually trusted. The Wayland security theater is actually completely useless and overblown in the real world.

Can I run wayland just as a WM? I don't want the DE garbage, currently I run X11 without any DE so I just open everything from terminal, boots up and runs fast.

If I get Wayland will I be forced into any bullshit? Or is it just a WM?

>X11 works fine.
Not on my hardware.

> Compositors and the protocol itself are designed in such a way that if it's being used correctly, tearing is impossible.
That's a lie I had tearing because of driver issues. The tearing just looked different, it was on contant line at the top half of the screen.
Also If you experience tearing on X11 it is usually a driver issue. On modern intel and AMD graphics you can get a tear free X11 desktop even without a compositor. So the main argument for Wayland is already moot.

1. Two frames mandatory latency
2. locked at 60 Hz
3. No universal hotkey deamon or way to take screen shots
4. No support for Window Managers

idk wat you're tlking about, the fucking media keys from my headphone work to forward the track on mpd on sway even when im connected through bluetooth
media keys are bindable through sway just fine

I need xdotool for automation you retard.
But wayland isn't safe either because we already got ydotool.

That's not how it works with Wayland. There is no separate concept of a window manager; it's all baked into the individual Wayland compositor.
Mutter (Gnome) is a Wayland compositor, KDE is a wayland compositor, weston is a wayland compositor, sway is a wayland compositor. Others exist, but these would be the most relevant.
Obviously some Wayland compositors are more lightweight than others.

>1. Two frames mandatory latency
Not true. Wayland is a mailbox buffer sharing model, and the compositor can take the frames whenever the hell it wants to.
>2. locked at 60 Hz
Definitely not true. There is absolutely nothing in the protocol even mentioning 60Hz.
You're probably confusing some shit with and old Xwayland bug.
>No universal hotkey deamon
This is a good thing: This shit opens the possibility for all clients to become keyloggers.
>way to take screen shots
It's not in the core protocol (most things aren't really), but left up to compositor's own mechanisms.
xdg-desktop-portal is trying to become the standard way now.
>4. No support for Window Managers
You don't understand the Wayland model and are deeply entrenched in old thinking.
This isn't even an argument.

You are aware that you need root privileges to fuck with /dev/input, right?
Do you even wonder why that is and what the implications of that are?

Sorry I don't know about root privileges for /dev/input
I only know that (run as a normal user) xdotool/ydotool allow you to send any key to any program I use. So it doesn't really imply anything for me. Sorry I don't understand.

The point is that root being able to mess things is not a "flaw", as you seem to imply by "wayland isn't safe".
Random clients don't have root privileges, so random clients don't get to mess around with input or any other things.

That is not what I meant.
said that X11 keylogs you and I thought that user meant every program could get access easily to every other program of the same user. Wayland-people spout this to say their system doesn't have this security-bug. So I said there also exists ydotool which allows what xdotool does but under wayland. The argument that it is not possible to keylog under wayland is not completely right. Of course a combination of things like ydotool and clipboardmanager can read many things.

also there is no root needed, neighter in X nor in Wayland for this to work.

The reason it's a security issue in X is because any client can do it simply using the X protocol. The Wayland protocol doesn't allow random clients to sniff input and only delivers mouse movements and keypresses towards the window they're targeted at.
Using ydotool means you're bypassing the display server entirely and are going straight for the kernel interface, but doing that requires root.

Either you're using a setuid program, or your user is part of the input group.
Either way, elevated privileges are involved, and has nothing to do with the display server.

Ah ok I didn't think it through like this.
Makes sense, thank you.

>finally get graphics/audio/etc working reliably after decades of work
>let's move to this new shiny thing because we got bored of maintaining said working product!
>turns out it's broken as fuck
freedesktop "standards" lmao

Attached: 1562689750009.jpg (889x741, 71K)

I am really interested in this topic now.
My groups are: cdrom floppy audio dip video plugdev netdev bluetooth lpadmin scanner
How can I check for setuid? This is a normal debian install with just apt-get install xdotool running x-server and gnome.

ls -l /path/to/executable
And if it has 's' in the execute position, it's setuid.
e.g
$ ls -l /bin/sudo
-rwsr-xr-x 1 root root 140600 Jan 14 2019 /bin/sudo
$ ls -l /bin/ls
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 137680 Mar 11 2019 /bin/ls
There could also be some ACL shit going on, but I don't think that would be the case. If cat /dev/input/event0 "works" without getting permission denied, it's possible.

X11 was not "reliable" at all.

as I said it is a normal install without any tinkering
xdotool type "hello" && xdotool key return
work.

Attached: nope.png (571x142, 14K)

xdotool works entirely through the X protocol. It doesn't need setuid.
This is the security hole that everyone keeps banging on about.

Certainly more reliable than memeland. Why do so many distros still hold on to it?

Because Nvidia are cunts.

Ok so that is why...

Yeah, use sway, enlightenment or Weston. There's also wlfire, but I don't know much about it

More like lots of software still doesn't work on it.
>Nvidia
I expect common hardware to be functional. It is not their responsibility to make it work with your flavor of the week meme display protocol.

Weston is ass. There really is lack of support for wayland when it comes to DEs.

>More like lots of software still doesn't work on it.
No matter what you're talking about, there will always be a transition period when replacing any old technology.
All major toolkits have had support for ages, so most programs get support "for free".
>It is not their responsibility
Actually, yes it is. They have their own retarded special snowflake solution that is broken.
I refuse to add support for it, both for very strong technical and non-technical reasons.

Weston really isn't designed for proper desktop use. It's barebones as fuck.

They asked for WMs, not DEs. I've presented choices that I know of, it's up to them to decide. As far as I know, only GNOME and KDE are supported DEs, but I don't use DEs so I have no idea how they perform in Wayland

this is what makes Ganoo+linux system much less of a ootb experience friendly than that OtherOperatingSystem™
there are gorillion configuration options in every aspect so that every flaw in them makes the overall experience less polished.
Wayland or x11, systemd or openrc or whatever other init, DE vs other DE, packet manager x vs y, those make it difficult for newcomers and as a result noone bothers to write software with such zeal as for windows, especially when overall "muh free as in freedom" attitude and makes proprietary software, especially drivers or more specifically GOOD drivers unavailable for loonix inb4 and thats a good thing, truly free systems allow its user to do absolutely whatever they want contrary to what rms says, freedom is not when your own system forbids you to install certain software, if one tempts to install non free program why would you stop him, its not like it will become coreutil, there will still be enthusiasts fanatically sticking to 110% libre software

>transition period
Quite a long one, looks like Wayland just won't be reliable enough to be the default even 10 years from now.
>We have our own retarded special snowflake solution that is broken.
Good to know. It isn't their hobby to support your shity github project, they actually are a business you know. What guarantees do they have of Wayland's future? What if the devs get bored of crusty code again and start a new protocol?

you are confused, the problem is they don't implement the low-level kernel APIs that are used to implement display servers, instead they made their own proprietary kernel API and then wrote their own backend to Xorg

this means that every display server that wants to use nvidia has to do the same and have its own special backend for nvidia, so it doesn't just affect wayland, you would have this problem if you tried to write a new X11 display server too

>to be the default even 10 years from now
Gnome's wayland compositor is literally already the default on several high-profile distributions.
>Good to know. It isn't their hobby to support your shity github project, they actually are a business you know. What guarantees do they have of Wayland's future? What if the devs get bored of crusty code again and start a new protocol?
You're extremely stupid and naive.
For starters, X is dead. Face it. Literally nobody is interested in seriously maintaining it. People are seriously worried that nobody is going to give enough of a shit to scrape together the next release any time soon.

Wayland is not some "shitty github project". There are big and serious companies backing it, and already has big and serious users. It's future looks far more promising and certain than Xorg's.

The issue with Nvidia is that they don't support the standard APIs that literally every other fucking driver uses. Fuck that shit. My Wayland compositor consists of driver-independent code, and I'm not going out of my way to make my software more complex just to enable Nvidia's fuckery.

>NOOOOOO WON'T ANYONE THINK OF THE POOR CORPORATIONS
lmao, your babyduck syndrome is showing

dumb nigger, X keyloggers keylog the whole device so switching to a tty doesn't fix it

>already the default
Gnome still offers the X session because they know it breaks. Also, being a default in gnome is not the same as being the default of a distro. Why don't they trust it already? Could it be that people need more than gnome and an i3 ripoff?
>nobody is interested in seriously maintaining it
They take ownership and then refuse to support it. Don't worry the same will happen with Wayland once they get bored.
>big and serious companies
Those don't really care about the desktop. Nvidia does and they see no value in your hobbyist shit.
>standard APIs that literally every other fucking driver uses
So what you faggot? They support what works for them, remember they are a BUSINESS not charity.

Imagine basing your identify on a fucking massive corporation that literally couldn't care less about you. This is Apple levels of blind, retarded fanboyism.
Both AMD and Intel found it to be worth it to support the open source ecosystem, and they have extremely high-quality drivers. A bunch of ARM drivers support GBM too, but I have little interest in those.
Are you seriously going to tell me that Nvidia is fucking "bigger and more important" than Intel?

Attached: 1550029750049.png (536x469, 378K)

the only reason wayland exist is that of google rejecting x11 for phones, now that google rejected wayland implementation there's no reason to keep pushing it, no one is worried about the isolation thing on linux same as having a monolithic system manager or a secure communication manager between apps.

>now that google rejected wayland implementation there's no reason to keep pushing it
It's literally used inside of ChromeOS in some weird way I don't understand.

>Imagine basing your identify on a fucking massive corporation that literally couldn't care less about you.
So IBM/Redhat?
>Both AMD and Intel
diferent companies with different products
>Intel
Nvida is "bigger and more important" when it comes to high performance graphics? Are you literally retarded?

ye and if i install the android sdk im running android on my computer. Wayland is just a protocol so they aren't using it.

>diferent companies with different products
They're both manufacturers of GPUs, and Intel is actually the largest of all 3.
>high performance graphics
Nobody mentioned "high performance". In fact, "low performance" is by far the more interesting case.
X11 works "fine" on desktop-class GPUs because it's so fast that the massive imperfections are covered up. Try to run it on something raspberry-pi tier and it's pure fucking garbage.
While this is a pretty old video, it's still extremely relevant: youtube.com/watch?v=Ux-WCpNvRFM
This is the reason that so many companies are already using Wayland in their products, because they're not throwing $1500 GPUs in their smart TVs or car entertainment systems.

>Wayland is just a protocol
Yes, and that's why it's great. They are literally using the Wayland protocol in their architecture somewhere for buffer sharing.
Here is some of the source code: cs.chromium.org/chromium/src/components/exo/wayland/

>X11 works fine.

>haven't been able to get a desktop to render smoothly at 144hz with a secondary 60hz display despite years of tinkering

nah x11 is shit

>They're both manufacturers of GPUs
And their GPUs are completely different. Maybe it is just so much easier to use their own api.
>Nobody mentioned "high performance". In fact, "low performance" is by far the more interesting case.
We are talking about desktops and a proper GPU is a part of one.
>Try to run it on something raspberry-pi tier and it's pure fucking garbage.
Works fine for me. Don't forget X11 is ancient and used to work on even weaker machines.
>they're not throwing $1500 GPUs in their smart TVs or car entertainment systems.
No they run Android or some non Linux is.

Stop wasting your energy on these imbeciles, let them wallow in ignorance and onions fueled hatred forever

Why don't KDE and Gnome just fix fucking wayland bugs?

is it even possible to run Wayland on a raspberry?
do you even try bro....

>And their GPUs are completely different. Maybe it is just so much easier to use their own api.
Nouveau seems to handle the API just fucking fine. Literally the same GPUs.
>Don't forget X11 is ancient and used to work on even weaker machines
And tore to all hell back then too. Standards these days are much higher.
>No they run Android or some non Linux is.
No, it's very often Linux.

Writing a Wayland compositor is very hard.

What are the chances that my sony non smart tv is powered by wayland? What did they use before it came along?

opengl

They had YEARS to fix the laggy cursor issues in Plasma and GNOME
Still haven't
Still forced to use Xrender in Plasma
Biggest joke to have existed

>Nouveau
>fine
You are aware they most likely share code with their drivers on other platforms, right?
>And tore to all hell back then too.
Tearing isn't a problem on my devices. Either the driver has an option to fix it or the compositor will.
Still doesn't change anything, X11 is perfectly fine on weak devices.
>it's very often Linux
SoC manufacturers are much more likely to support Android only. Wayland isn't a thing on the desktop and it sure as hell isn't in the extremely conservative embedded world.

Automotive Grade Linux, which runs on many car's entertainment systems run with Wayland.
Tizen uses Wayland, so I imagine most Samsung smart TVs and similar devices have it.

> Try to run it on something raspberry-pi tier and it's pure fucking garbage.
Thats a pure driver issue. If you have good drivers X11 runs even faster than Wayland.
This is especially true for steam games that I tested.
All of them run with X11. Are they all supposed to switch to wayland.
This is never going to happen. Wayland had its chance. It is going on for ten fucking years. It was not good enough to convince anybody except some Redhat trannies to switcj.

Git was good. It came out. Everyone saw that it was good and within a year everybody with half a brain willingly and enthusiastically switched to it.
Wayland is not like Git. Wayland is a shortsighted garbage protocol.

Are you aware the modern X and Wayland use literally the exact same underlying buffer sharing mechanisms? There is literally no reason a native wayland program on wayland would run worse than a native X program on X. I'd actually expect it to be quicker because it's a more lightweight and less chatty protocol.
Please don't fucking tell me that you've run any benchmarks on Xwayland and expected to get meaningful results out of them. It's literally X + Wayland; you are just adding the overheads of both together.
>Are they all supposed to switch to wayland.
I VERY highly doubt games are calling into the X protocol directly at all. They will be running on SDL, GLFW and similar libraries, which have already been ported over to wayland.
>It is going on for ten fucking years
While technically the protocol has been going on for that long, serious attempts at desktop-oriented Wayland compositors started MUCH later, maybe around 2016-2017, and have only somewhat recently become viable.
A Wayland compositor is a very complex piece of software. It takes quite a while to get one right.
>Wayland is a shortsighted garbage protocol
Please give me some real fucking technical reasons for this.
All of you fuckfaces seem to think you're experts on display servers, yet nobody has replied with anything.

I never had screen tearing on Linux. Use a proper DE instead of some garbage tiling wm

>This is especially true for steam games that I tested.
I can assure you that enabling vsync will fix most of the issues guaranteed. For native games in Steam that use SDL, linking to the system SDL libraries with LD_PRELOAD will yield much better results. You're full of shit

>Please give me some real fucking technical reasons for this.

Very simple:
> I want low latency and no vsync
Use a specialized display server!
> I want tiling window management
Use a specialized display server!
> I want to take Screenshots with one specific tool
Use a specialized display server!
> I want some desktop effect
Use a specialized display server!

For each function that extends only slightly over blitting a bunch of textures together you have to implement a complete new display server and the probability of the existence of a display server that supports all the features that a particular user wants at the same time goes to zero.

THAT is why the protocol is shortsighted.

Many Games run on Wine. And they run significantly slower and have much worse latency on Xwayland. There are so many "construction sites" with Wayland way even bother and just use the old shit that works.
Your querty keybord is also not the perfect layout. But everybody keeps using it because it is "ugly but good enough".
X11 is ugly but good enough. Never touch a running system.

>much worse latency
Have you actually investigated with DXVK_HUD=frametimes enabled? I've seen significant improvements with XWayland compared to pure X11 for games running through Wine. Again, you're full of shit

At the time I tested it it was noticeable worse (I'm on AMDGPU). But I don't care or bother anymore. X11 works. A change was at no point necessary, even not from a technical viewpoint.
Wayland was probably initiated by moles paid by Redhat/IBM in order to take more ownership of the free software community.

The problem is that 10 years ago, 10 WHOLE YEARS ago, wayland folks were already tooting their horns about how superior they are and how soon enough everyone would move on to wayland. Fast forward to today and it's like there's been 0 progress because nothing is usable yet and there's been no progress in getting common hardware to support it.

Almost feel like asking canonical to pick mir back up. At least mir fucking worked better than wayland ever did.

gnome is stable on wayland and all gtk and qt programs have been usable for years
mir still is exists and is now a library for writing wayland compositors

"Some compositor doesn't do what I want it to" is not a technical reason. I asked for technical reasons.
Removing the centralised display server does indeed have its disadvantages, but it was a tradeoff worth making. It simplifies everything, make everything more efficient, removes a shitload of variable delay, and allows for a greater number of different types of wayland compositors to exist.

I also hate this attitude that every piece of software should do everything and that people are required to implement the things that YOU want. That's not how open-source works.
If you want something implemented, fucking do it yourself or incentivize someone who can. I'm already developing my wayland compositor library in my personal time, and I'm not going to spend it doing features I'm not interested in or don't forward MY goals.

Redhat isn't even the most influential member of the wider wayland community.

>there's been 0 progress
Are you blind?
>nothing is usable yet
Gnome on Wayland already ships by default in Fedora and probably some others I can't be fucked looking up.
I've been using sway as my primary environment for well over a year at this point.
>there's been no progress in getting common hardware to support it
Literally everything supports it. The holdout is Nvidia's garbage driver which does have a retarded special-snowflake interface to "support" Wayland, but may projects, including the one I'm associated with (wlroots) and weston (the reference compositor) has refused to support it, for a multitude of reasons.
Nvidia was supposed to come out with some new shit to replace it, but they appear to have lost interest internally.

Mir literally morphed into a Wayland compositor.

Don't cherry pick. Wayland is only used in a minority of the android alternatives. Think of how Nvidia doesn't support it and now think of all the vendors who only distribute closed and undocumented GPU drivers.

>gnome
>stable
>on anything
"no"
Also nothing on wayland is even stable. Automatic full system hangup in 10 minutes everytime with nouveau or intel.

>including the one I'm associated with
No wonder you're shilling for your garbage unusable technology and not even acknowledging its flaws.
Also no wonder said technology is vaporware and will never get anywhere.
Protip: the first step to making something good is introspection. If you can't accept the flaws and therefore address them, they'll only get worse over time.

Literally not true

How much is nvidia paying you?

I don't fucking know everyone who's using Wayland. AGL and Tizen are just the big ones you hear about that are open about it.
Most random closed source shit doesn't disclose what they're using.
But pretty often you get random emails from people on from some random company's email address asking support-type questions on the wayland mailing list, so people are actually using it.

>Automatic full system hangup
This is definitely a driver or kernel bug, or a hardware fuckup. It has nothing really to do with the display server; it'll happen on either X11 or a Wayland compositor.
Hardware video decoders actually trigger those kinds of issues more frequently.

>Protip: the first step to making something good is introspection. If you can't accept the flaws and therefore address them, they'll only get worse over time.
This is literally what happened to X11, and now we have Wayland.