European Union is the best chance for Europe to grow and prosper. Prove me wrong

When the armies conform to common standards and structure this will be an easy step.
In the mean time they can improve the compatibility and performance under the PESCO structure.

Yeah, PESCO was a great move
Hoping for standardized doctrines and equipment as well

We must balkanize, it makes for easier management of individual countries. Israël demands it

I still dont see why a command structure that unifies European militaries is such a problem for small dicked right wingers

Yes EU has proven that it brings prosperity. Like compared to -80s when we were not part of EU everythint sucked. Now I just can't decide where I will put all the money and prosperity which EU has brought to me

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They are going for >muh dictatorship and muh Germany, as usual

Honestly i do agree.

you'll have to wring the snus out of my cold dead hands before it happens

>2 europes, 2 speeds
>french exceptionalism
>german exceptionalism
>non-negotiable, exclusive military deals (american officials are salty with this, btw)
>banning country specific subsidies
>importing subsidized goods from countries with subsidies for those goods (e.g meat from australia)
>meedling in national and foreign diplomacy of member-states (russian and american cabinets are not happy with this)
>especialization of national economies (making them more inequal and vulnerable)
>no unifyed tax plan
>no unifyed fiscal policies
>euro does not reflect individual economies - favours strong economies (since the currency is less valuable than the economy), stalls uncompetitive ones (since the currency is too valuable for the economy)
I could go on, but I wanted to avoid political issues

federalize now

>3. Make the commission elected entirely independently from the council.
Commission is independent from the council. Commission is approved by the EU Parliament, it's a similar procedure to approving a government in most of democratic countries.

It isn't. Nationalism must prevail.

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First EU becomes a nation. Then nationalism to make it last.

THIS

>>euro does not reflect individual economies - favours strong economies (since the currency is less valuable than the economy), stalls uncompetitive ones (since the currency is too valuable for the economy)
Read what you just wrote. It favors strong economies and stalls uncompetetive ones. What's wrong about that? Should we favor weak economies? What kind of reasoning is that? Maybe instead of blaming the euro, southern countries should implement necessary reforms and fight corruption.

this

the so called strong economies use Chinese tactics to dominate on others.
they have only themselves to blame for the trade war they caused

Elaborate on that. Tell me how Germans making their economy strong and competitive is somehow evil.

Fix your own economy for fucks sake, make better products, invest, innovate, instead of blaming the euro and China that you can't flood Europe with cheap trash anymore.

Poland is right

what about mass immigration?

It is proposed by the council, fuck that.

>evil
didn't say evil, just trade war

it means weak economies become subsidy dependant, because they cannot grow by themselves

To put in your prespective, it's the same as cutting EU funds to german coumpanies operating in poland. S. Europe saw (and still sees) very little investment since the beggining of the 21th century (almost 20 years now).

This lack of investment wouldn't be problematic in a fully sovereign country, you just increase inflaction a bit and economy takes off (at a significant increase of foreign made products). But since we are stuck toghether with the same currency but diferent fiscal policies, bussinesses register their taxing in the netherlands or ireland (paying close to 0% corporate tax, and minimal capital gains tax -dunno the name of the second) while operating all across the union. Furthermore, since the EU bans national subsidies (only EU aproved funds are OK, except if you are france, that is) the only way to boost the economy is through (foreign) investment. And yes, this was part of the plan, "we" signed in knowing fully well this was going to happen (the sheer amount of propaganda needed to forget this was massive).

You'll see the effects in your country soon enough, though. What you are experiencing now, was the same for us during the 80's and 90's, good stuff.

>since the EU bans national subsidies (only EU aproved funds are OK, except if you are france, that is)
not exactly

>The German federal government paid out financial assistance worth around 55 billion euros (67.75 billion U.S. dollars) in 2017 alone, claimed the study co-authored by Claus-Friedrich Laaser and Astrid Rosenschon.
>The institute particularly criticized the subsidies which it viewed as "contradictory," such as electricity bill rebates -- around 1.7 billion euros in 2017 (2.1 billion dollars) -- offered by the federal government to energy-intensive industries which contradicted an official desire made by German Chancellor Angela Merkel to transform the national economy into a greener one.

xinhuanet.com/english/2018-04/10/c_137100048.htm

I seem to have cut a part of my text

the shared currency means countries cannot ajust inflation to the national economy's needs. That's why spain was hit so hard and itally is perpetually in recession (but that does not apply to greece, their case was special)

Ireland saved themselves because the UK not only made the loan at little to no interest rate, but also because they increased the investments in ireland to give them a boost - they are doing well now

this is not interely on germany either, their hand was forced since france backed out (and everyone found out their debt was even more massive than previously known)

lol no, the EEA and EU are fucking cancer.

>itally is perpetually in recession
We are in recession because half the country has third world tier levels of corruption and unemployment, our politicians have been doing fuck all and all the taxes are spent on people that stopped working at 50. The euro is the last of our problems, and we are lucky to have it or we would have a Weimar tier inflation

it's not a trade war, it's simply a fucking competition, and you're losing, face it
>You'll see the effects in your country soon enough, though. What you are experiencing now, was the same for us during the 80's and 90's, good stuff.
Nope, we'll keep enjoying strong growth. Do not compare Southern economies to the Central European ones, because they're not the same. We are not as corrupt, we aren't running into debt, we don't have as much welfare, our economies are diverse, our industry is rather competitive(at least compared to yours). I don't see a reason why the same thing would be happening here.

>you're losing
duuur
>what is internal devaluation

One of the very few southerners I've ever seen that aren't blaming euro and Germany for all their problems. Nice.

You are objectively right, there's nothing to disprove.

Germany sure isn't perfect, but shifting the blame on it and the EU surely doesn't help. Italy should be revised in a more federal way, and the EU should do the same

I'd be okay with an EU with exclusively UK, France and Germany

No countries with sub 2 trillion gdp

>not as corrupt
fyi
those who talk about corruption are the same people behind VW, Audi, Siemens, Deutsche Bank, Lehman Brothers, the same who caused the 2008 financial crisis btw

picrel is you on corruption

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Dont worry, Spain is going full laissez-faire. It is going to be funny when this shithole becomes the china of Europe.

I want to share a nation with all europeans
I wish to look at italians, french, germans, dutch, spanish, portuguese, maltese, irish, slovenians, austrians, czechs, poles, croatians, slovakians, hungarians, lithuanians, estonians, latvians, swedes, finns, danes, greeks, romanians, bulgarians, belgians, and call all these people my brothers and sisters

your corruption is not too diferent from the rest, mob is the only extra leech you have. We are far more cynical towards our governments compared to germans. DeutcheBank almost fell (remember those "falling bankers''?), if germany hadn't bailled them out (and our banks too, since DB had money there) the union would've colapsed and their economy too (props to them for getting the hands dirty work, though)

spain had no debt in 2000 either (or had it very small). They actually loaned to other countries for a very long time.

they are currently sitting on >100% of GDP of debt

portugal and greece had a significant debt prior (ence why they joined the union)

italy had hidden debt (like portugal and greece) and I think we will never know how much they are in debt

point is, it's all flowers and sunshine until money runs out and your politicians start taking loans to get reelected, after that it's snowball all the way down. We currently would have superavits if debt was not this huge (superavits are also not allowed by the EU, unless you are germany).

>your corruption is not too diferent from the rest, mob is the only extra leech you have
Please. Do you know that in the south one person every 43 is on disability welfare? The Germans are our last problem

Good riddance.

>Blaming the south for Everything

I am tired of the northern hipocricy, yours and the spanish one.

so what? they provide neetbux, literally

Why would we need a union for that? We're still european. The notion of conquest is as foreign to us as a real democratic election is to non-Europeans.

Ahh yes, because one European country has absolutely NEVER tried to do the other

Lombardy produces the 25% of the Italian GDP, and has a GDP higher than Norway, Greece, Austria, Denmark, Finland, Ireland and Portugal
Meanwhile, the south gets gibs, and it has been doing this for decades. And WE are the bad ones?

How can a country reduce the public debt, invest in infrastructure, lower taxes to help companies producing here if all the money are gifted away then?

Damn Belarus! They're the reason nobody trusts Sweden to not usurp our democratic society and install a murderous dictator.

do you employ workers from the south by the hundreds of thousands?
yes
then stfu

There will never be another armed war in Europe, our economies are too interlocked and we literally have no reason to invade another country. A single military would just lower the costs for everyone

>An Eastern Europoor
Always

>I want to share a nation with all europeans
I don't

That's not how it works dude
If they want to work that's good, but why should I gift money to the ones that don't work or that do it illegally?

i'm talking about the neetbux of nortern countries. are you sure no one has ever abused that system over there?

4. A supreme court modeled after the US supreme court.
5. Abolish the CAP.

You will receive a European Federation sponsored ticket to the fun summer camps in lapland

>A single military would just lower the costs for everyone

Would never work unless Eu countries actually start carrying their weight and put at least 50 billion per year into their militaries each

In our northern regions? The percentages are incredibly lower, in the order of 60% against 1%

do you lose money to corrupt politicians and corporate people from all over europe?

Ignore the Finn. They have issues, both domestic and international. They'll be the first to join a federalized union, shit they even adopted the euro.

yeah, that is the same exact shit I hear from the Spaniards and the reality of the south is way different that what You described. People work their asses off in order to survive with precarious salaries and the northfags can only say "muh gibs" . Get fucked.

We would share R&D costs, and then decentralize the production of equipment so that the countries that invested more can produce more in their territories. It already works for ESA

northern as in the Scandis, Netherlands, Belgium, Germany etc

>The notion of conquest is as foreign to us
dude

EU can never make europe truly prosper because it's a cold-blooded bureaucratic union. We need napoleon.

You're pretty crazy if you think A-kassa has any sort of visible impact on our economy. Don't you have free education and healthcare? Aren't you worried people abuse that too?

Why would I care that my neighbour's house is on fire when my own house is burning? We should fix our own problems before shifting the fault on others

I don't know how the situation is in Spain. But do you think that a country can function when the 79,5% of teachers are getting extra permits because of disabled parents in a region of the south, and only the 0,7% in a region of the north?

Why is it always eastern leeches that shill for total and further integration

There are people stealing way more in my country

I remember how spaniards blamed us for the crisis too. You are just a bunch of Hipocrites, I am kinda pity for the southern italians since they dont have any nationalist movements to defend themselves unlike andalusia.

I don't know what to say really
If the North is profiting over the South, why is the North that wants independence?

>Aren't you worried people abuse that too?
i'm not. The Italian is.
>We should fix our own problems
i agree but it's pretty hypocritical on their part to shit on others for corruption when they've shown themselves to not be immune to that same phenomenon

Of course they should solve their problems are well, but ours (talking about Italy) are much worse, and I will work to fix them before telling Germans and Scandis what to do

Federalize now! It is the only way for small European countries to survive and prosper in globalized world. Well that or going NK route.

>why is the North that wants independence?

They dont. The scatalonians are the only ones who desire independence and they are eastern Spain.

not to say that there is no domestic corruption in healthcare but, in fact, one of the biggest abuses of public healthcare in Greece involved Novartis.

Sounds like some of dat dere communism to me pinko

I was talking about my country, I don't know about Spain
Here the North wants independence

>Germans and Scandis what to do
if they mind their own business then that's ok

If we keep minding our own businesses we'll end up irrelevant
We have to cooperate

with who? Germans? the Dutch? Belgians?
haven't you been paying attention? it's everybody for themselves

With every European
Everybody for themselves and you'll be a province of China before the end of the century

>province of China
what does that mean. Millions of Chinese will poor in and replace us? where is all this famous european investment everybody has been blabbering about? so far you got the railways, germans got telecommunications, airports, a port and so on, now what?
why being a province of europe is so much different?

*pour

Get nukes then

Do you really want to be controlled by a government that you have no power to influence? (and no, the EU has is problems but there's no way it is more undemocratic than China).
The investments are here already, they are just hard to see. I think you can go on your gov website or on the EU one and see where the money are allocated
It would be first an economic war, and then just bullying to force a country into submission

>that you have no power to influence
how do you influence your government? is there even a difference between socialists and rightwingers anynore?
how do you influence the EU? by electing the people who are copies of eachother back home? why would they be any different at the europarliament?

A single constitution, a single board, a single president.