Why has this board become a crypto currency forum? I mean it was always bad but sometimes you had some slightly entertaining topics.
I blame it on the users' young age. I think the average age on this board is 19.
Crypto currencies have no value; they're a literal ponzi scheme with the allure of a technology bubble.
You guys are like the flat earth society. Regardless how much evidence and advice you get to prove this is useless you'll still believe the blog that claims bitcoin will reach $99999. You fall for the noise and the bitcooooneeeeect morons that use pump and dump schemes. I'd hate you guys if I didn't have pity for you.
If you want to value bitcoin and the other coins you need to ask yourself what value they bring to the world. If you say they are used for money transactions then you need to look at visa, mastercard, paypal. Take the market capitalization of those companies that fulfill that function add it up and divide by how many bitcoins there are in circulation. That should give you an upper bound for the price of 1 bitcoin so you don't think that bitcoin will reach to the moon. But that wouldn't be accurate either. Because visa and mastercard charge a transaction fee and that's how they make money, that's their revenue. But here the transaction fee doesn't go to the bitcoin holder but to the bitcoin miner. So if you hold bitcoin you're not being compensated but rather have to pay fees yourself to buy in and out.
You can say well bitcoins are useful because the blockchain is a new technology that is superior. Maybe so, but in that case the blockchain technology will be implemented regardless of bitcoin. Nor in this case does the bitcoin holder profit. I see Walmart, shipping and some other companies use block chain but not bitcoin.
If you say bitcoin is a currency, you need to study a bit on the functions of currencies, look at the history and how it evolved. Bitcoin is a very poor currency.
>Discusses the "real value" of crypto >Doesnt mention censorship resistance once Youre not going to make it
Evan Ramirez
> current year > talking about age
Only people that care about age are 17 year olds.
You must be retarded, mentally.
FYI crypto is an asset class. If you don't have any money get the fuck out.
Ethan Hughes
The best performing asset class in the known universe. So you know, we might talk about it.
Parker Martinez
I'm 30 and I turned 6k into 365k last year from crypto. I'm not kidding. I lost about 250k during this last crash, but tell me, what business could I open in which I could expect similar returns? What stocks?
James Reed
Fee are high, and transactions are slow. Visa can handle 1000 times more transactions than bitcoin per second. It's too volatile to be used as a storage of value. Most people don't want to check every 2 minutes to see they are worth 30% less than the previous month. Traditional currencies are inflationary too, but only in Venezuela you see such high fluctuations. Most people don't use bitcoin for day to day transactions and adoption is going down, not up. There are very few atms and the ones that exist are slow and charge a huge commission. Even Steam doesn't accept it anymore I hear. Bitcoin will never be used as you think the mass adoption required to justify its huge validation.
Even if we assume bitcoin could be used as a currency efficiently. At that point why not just start a new crypto currency instead of compensating the bitcoin holder to use the network. It would be a huge cost for the late adopters.
You can say cryptocurrency is like gold. But gold is a bad currency too and it was only used in the past because there was nothing better. When paper currency started to gain adoption gold pretty much stopped being a currency. Nowadays it's used as storage of value and for some industrial applications.
There are other reasons bitcoin is bad as a currency, like it being inherently deflationary - which is a bit too technical to explain here. I understand the governments are evil and it would be nice to have something decentralized but bitcoin has too many problems to take over.
Leo Adams
>I lost about 250k during this last crash, but tell me, what business could I open in which I could expect similar returns? What stocks? None. That's the point. It's ponzi scheme. In every ponzi scheme there are some people that made money. Even in the tulip mania some people became rich. Even people who invested with Maddof made money. The point is that a ponzi scheme is a zero sum game. Some people win and some people lose. But eventually the asset will become worthless and the late adopters will lose everything. I don't say you can't make money, but it's not investing, it's gambling. The only people that make money for sure are the people who hold a lot of coins and are manipulating the market. Especially with low volatility it's easier to move prices.
Cameron Watson
>tl;dr: read my sob story and sell me your coins for cheap goys reeeeeee Not happening bro.
Adrian Moore
If you want to research the issue you should look why Bitcoin got to such a high value. Look at previous instances where people got excited by a brand new flashy thing and then they ended up losing money.
Research the south sea bubble en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Sea_Company even Newton lost money in it. At the time people thought transatlantic voyage will make a lot of money but they didn't know how to value the company.
Look at the tech bubble of 2000. People put a lot of money in any internet company regardless of what the company did or how much sales it had because it was a flashy new thing and they didn't know how to value it. Same thing here. There hasn't been something like Bitcoin before so people just assume its value will skyrocket because they can't value it. When someone tries to warn them they point to their neighbor or their cabbie that made a lot of money trading in this. Well you can make money in a bubble if you happen to sell before it bursts. Do yourself a favor and read this book that documents past experiences before you invest in bitcoin. amazon.com/Manias-Panics-Crashes-Financial-Investment/dp/0471467146
Levi Lewis
It's all psychological and greedy. Gambling is fun and addicting. If you hold bitcoin you esentially hold something that is worth 0 and you can sell for $9000 in the hope that somebody even more irrational will give you more money for it. The problem with that is you can't know for sure if that person will ever come or you will never have the opportunity to sell again. You're holding a hot potato just waiting to pass it to someone else. When it starts sliding down you might not sell it for 8000 because you paid 9000 so the sunk costs fallacy will trigger you. The it goes to 7000 and you're sad you didn't sell at 8000. when it gets to 200 and nobody is buying you'll be sobbing. You might say it went down in the past, but one day it will be for real. And eventually there won't be people to manipulate the market to stabilize it. The only reason they do that is because they have even more coins or transactions platform to profit from. So stabilizing the market might be a small price for them to pay to profit later.
Sebastian Miller
Anyway I don't have any beef in the game. I've been investing in stocks for a while now and I have decent profits there. I am a wage cuck and compliment my income with stock market gains. Some years it's 30% some years 90%, some years 10%, or I could even lose. But at least I'm not investing in a zero sum game. The stock market has an average return of 10% over the past 120 years so even if I pick the wrong stocks or have to wait longer, the odds are in my favor.
You can call me an idiot or invent some conspiracy of why I'd want to speak against crypto currencies. I'd just want to warn, again, some poor souls that might have their lives destroyed when this thing comes crushing down. There are plenty of people that warned you. Stop being fanatical about it. Don't listen to these obscure blogs or shitty celebrities that say how the bitcoin can reach the sky. Yes it can go higher, but how will you know when it will stop? Don't gamble!
>le tulips >le ponzi >le bubble 3/3. Impressive. You can keep your ponzi dollars, I don't want them. The dollar hasn't done anything good for me but Bitcoin has.
Jonathan Turner
Because crypto will permeate every aspect of business and fintech.
Oliver Jackson
You are not going to make it when you constantly argue about bitcoins "real value". Fact : you missed the boat
Julian Sanders
cool, just write to me at [email protected] with how it worked out for you. I'll take the day off when this thing comes down to witness the drama. Nothing refuting my arguments.
Logan Ward
even if blockchain will. bitcoin will still be worthless.
Liam Flores
It'll be worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it.
Nolan Campbell
Everything will be tokenized sooner than later.
It's a better system, the big boys are now realizing it.
Aiden Nelson
people are not irrational forever.
Christopher Gonzalez
alright I'll engage with you. > Crypto currencies have no value; they're a literal ponzi scheme with the allure of a technology bubble. I disagree. They have value for a few reasons. Like fiat, value comes from people giving it value. There's a lot of value in a method of transferring wealth across borders with zero obstructions and minimal fees. In countries where poorfags can't even get bank accounts due to lack of infrastructure or being too poor, cryptocurrencies are their only solution. an entire bank with only a mobile phone. With smart contracts value is created by removing the middle men in our society, kind of like how automation is replacing workers. Anything in the shared economy (think uber or airbnb) is up for grabs by automated smart contracts that can do everything these companies do, and that's just the start. > Take the market capitalization of those companies that fulfill that function add it up and divide by how many bitcoins there are in circulation. That should give you an upper bound for the price of 1 bitcoin If you think that's all cryptocurrencies can accomplish yes, but they can do much more and value comes from that. >in that case the blockchain technology will be implemented regardless of bitcoin Agreed, I do hold Bitcoin, but I don't think it will be the winner here. Too many other coins are better positioned. Private blockchains are certainly a place we'll see a lot of growth, but there's still value from having a public ledger between these blockchains, just like how the internet and intranets coexist. That's why I'm big on interoperability chains like ICX, AION, WAN. >But at least I'm not investing in a zero sum game Cryptocurrencies are creating value even if you don't see it. It's no more of a zero sum game than the stock market. >Don't gamble! Agreed, I only put a bit of my entertainment money in and I made significantly more compared to the index fund ETFs I'm in. Could all go to zero and I'd be fine.
Brody Campbell
OH I think btc is trash and way better tech is available but it has inertia.
Chase Moore
>zero obstructions and minimal fees Not true. >too poor, cryptocurrencies are their only solution Most people that hold bitcoin are hipsters from first world countries and china that have savings. Venezuelans barter with eggs, not bitcoin. Mexicans send money home with WesternUnion. Bitcoin is too complicated for people that don't know how to even send an email. >shared economy (think uber or airbnb) is up for grabs uber and airbnb is basically the same as taxis and hotels but with no regulation and an app. That's until the government starts to regulate them then they're going to compete with the same old companies as before. Still doesn't explain how your bitcoin will be used by everyone. At least uber and airbnb are fairly simple, easy to use, and cheaper than the incumbents. >they can do much more like what? >internet and intranets sure the internet brought a lot of value but the guy who invented it isn't a billionaire. ISP provides make normal returns. Domain sellers don't have a market capitalization of 400 billion. >Cryptocurrencies are creating value even if you don't see it. how, does the emperor have no clothes? >It's no more of a zero sum game than the stock market. the stock market is not a zero sum game. google what a zero sum game is. Trading is a zero sum game but not investing. But even trading has some benefits despite being a zero sum game because it creates liquidity and helps the price discovery. In the stock market, that capital is allocated to factories that produce goods and services that people buy. The value comes from the production. If I invest in some seeds that get put in the ground, fruits and grains grow that people want to buy. It creates value. Something is being made with that money. With bitcoin, people put money in a fund that is associated with some digital coins. If the amount of coins stays the same, if more people put money in that fund, the price of bitcoin will rise because there are the same amount of bitcoins
Adrian Harris
to correspond to more money. But when people realize that those bitcoins are not doing anything they will take their money back and put into more productive activities. When that happens bitcoin will be worth 0 because nobody will buy them anymore.
Aiden Reyes
You do not not understand the word "essentially". Bitcoin's worth is non-zero because it requires non-zero effort to create and has non-zero intrinsic value to people who use and/or horde it. You must be one of those people who think things worth is determined by manual effort. I knew a steel worker like that who didn't think my computer science was worth anything until I manually rebuilt his hard drive in a dark room to save his data.
Anyway, you are low functioning if you can't see that bitcoin's value is greater than zero.
Anthony Young
>tulip mania So you are not worth talking to. You could have saved us some time, by telling right away you don't understand the subject.
Brayden Roberts
>worth is determined by manual effort. Never said that, nor do I believe it. >people who use and/or horde it people are not using it for what it was designed, to trade goods and services. They use it as you say to hoard it. In that sense it does have value for the people the same way someone derives pleasure from gambling in a casino or betting on sports. The only way it is being used right now is as a speculative asset. The only reason people buy bitcoin is because they hope it will go up in value in the future.
There is no indication that it will be used as intended for transacting because it's being accepted as a method of payment even less than last year. People almost gave up on using it to buy things with it. People now use their phone to buy things in China, and that method is easy and getting more traction. Bitcoin on the other hand is used less.
The only way it's actually useful to some people other than speculating on it is to buy illegal things, or to escape capital controls like in China.
Kayden Miller
have you seen the alt market? people are trading bitcoin for services(alts)
Benjamin Powell
>Not true. compared to doing remittances with the banking system, there's definitely space for cryptocurrencies to eat their lunch. >Most people that hold bitcoin are hipsters from first world countries and china that have savings. Venezuelans barter with eggs, not bitcoin. Mexicans send money home with WesternUnion. I'm not talking about bitcoin, I'm talking about cryptocurrencies. You know the fees for western union are multiple times higher than most cryptocurrencies, right? >Bitcoin is too complicated for people that don't know how to even send an email. I've seen Abra do a good job making things simpler and less costly for doing remittances. Eventually fiat gateways into crypto won't be anymore complicated than sending an email. You know people at one point thought that was too complicated when they could just mail a letter, right? >uber and airbnb is basically the same as taxis and hotels but with no regulation and an app. That's the ultimate product yes, but the way it achieves that is by sharing people's own resources (their own homes, their own cars and themselves as the driver). These companies can be replaced by smart contracts, secured with cryptocurrencies. >Still doesn't explain how your bitcoin will be used by everyone I'm still not talking about bitcoin. >like what? can you read? or are you just intentionally this dense? >sure the internet brought a lot of value but the guy who invented it isn't a billionaire A lot of companies that adopted it sure do make trillions though. >how, does the emperor have no clothes? Do I have to keep repeating myself? Reduced remittance, removing middle men, completely autonomous companies with smart contract, and more. Efficiencies in society do provide value. >With bitcoin, people put money in a fund that is associated with some digital coins. Still not talking about bitcoin. Some cryptocurrencies are essentially a stock, where the token value comes from revenue earned with the token.
Anthony Price
Fiat has been a ponzi scheme in the US ever since it dropped the gold standard.
Dylan Powell
>I've seen Abra do a good job making things simpler and less costly for doing remittances. That's great, hope they do, but even if they succeed and replace visa and mastercard and the other incumbents that still doesn't mean you'll profit from hoarding the coins now.
Ok the technology can be useful in the future I said that in my original post. But all I am saying is that hoarding these coins now is pretty irrational and a bad investment, for more likely to lose than to make money. I already gave many examples were people in the past got excited by new technologies but investing in them proved to be a bad strategy. Look at airlines. Very useful to society but the early investors in airlines lost money. The internet is very useful but investing in pets.com was a really bad investment and people that said so at the time got as much hate as I am getting here. >A lot of companies that adopted it sure do make trillions though. No, people who had a solid business plan where you could see sales and profits in the future made money. >Do I have to keep repeating myself? Reduced remittance, removing middle men, completely autonomous companies with smart contract, and more. Efficiencies in society do provide value. you're talking about the technology maybe becoming useful in the future. I am talking about how hording coins with no prospects is bad business.
Jose Rivera
if the $ loses 80% of its value in a year you'll probably worry about other things more than losing your meager savings. You're stretching the argument and it's not a true comparison.
Sebastian Jenkins
Bitcoin is not zero sum, I mean this is an absolute mathematical fact it is not zero sum.
Let's present a hypothetical example, every single person in the universe puts all their money into bitcoin, lets ignore scaling issues because they're irrelevant to my point. As long as productivity and GDP grows, the value of all bitcoins will grow as well. It isn't zero sum because it isn't attempting to create anything, it is a vehicle for storing value without a middleman, that is all.
It's growth is simply a result of it's adoption, as more people convert their worthless paper money into bitcoin its value goes up. Full stop. Don't try to understand this as a stock with your EPS crap. Cryptocurrency is a means for Russia to bypass sanctions, Cryptocurrency is a means for drug dealers to hide their wealth, Cryptocurrency is the first true alternative to government controlled Fiat.
Let that sink in, up until this point in history governments had a complete monopoly on money. The truth is right now we have an alternative. Maybe it's volatile, maybe it has scaling issues, but right now today I can use bitcoin to buy things, I can store my money in bitcoin while I travel etc.
Bitcoin might die and get replaced by a newer better crypto, but the truth is this has been a long time coming.
Jaxson Harris
>you're talking about the technology maybe becoming useful in the future. Sure this is still an emerging market, still lots of speculation. There's definitely cases that are useful today. Nothing has to replace all existing infrastructure overnight to be successful. > I am talking about how hording coins with no prospects is bad business. Most would agree, but there's a lot of controversy over which coins actually have no prospects. Claiming all cryptocurrencies have no value and are a ponzi scheme is just wrong though.
Except I won't put 80k down just to participate in this system. In order for me to trade with bitcoin I'd have to buy some. So I buy some from you for a super high price to be able to transact. But for me it's cheaper to just use $ and visa and my bank for now. My transaction costs are pretty low and inflation is 2% or lower. If this technology becomes better and reduces my transaction costs to a point where it's easier and cheaper for me to use crypto, someone will probably come up with a newcoin99 and issue these new coins totally bypassing these older coins that have been in existence for ages. At that point the value of the new coin will have to be smaller than my transaction costs otherwise I will just not opt in. With so many competing currencies which drive the price of the coin low and the costs of maintaining the network, mining, platform where you can trade the coins, probably the profit you will be making by being among the first to mine and hold these new coins will be low and you'll feel like a fool. And that assumes you've bet on one of the successful coins. By that time a lot of people would have seen their savings evaporate in the failing coins.
Eli Rodriguez
Yep. Trustless, immutable etc. Weak fud is bullish as fuck.
Michael Morales
It's almost always been a crypto board newfag. And 19 is about average for internet forums anyways.
Aiden Young
Vitalik is actually younger than most of this board OP's probably in his early 20s, which is why he picked 19
this OP's obviously never had to fight chargeback fraud before. Chargebacks basically allow anyone to reverse payments by claiming they were unauthorized (made by a hacker). That means they can simply use a VPN, buy shit, and then claim their account was hacked to get their money back. It's no wonder that virtual goods merchants (who almost always lose chargebacks since they cannot provide proof of delivery for virtual goods) were among the first people to adopt Bitcoin...and in a fitting twist of karmic retribution, became incredibly rich.
I actually got into Bitcoin at $300 because a former American Idol contestant stole $500 from me with chargebacks. Despite posts on his Twitter account talking about how he chargedback on other people on the past, he won the chargebacks. It's funny that I'm now a multimillionaire because of Bitcoin, while his Wikipedia article was deleted due to "lack of notability". I've actually made more from the capital gains from a single Bitcoin than I've lost from chargebacks. Based on the Silk Road case, I actually have enough Bitcoin to have everyone who has ever committed chargeback fraud against me murdered...not that I'd ever waste the future of currency on worthless niggers.
Sebastian Butler
The Sumerians invented single entry accounting The Venetians invented double entry accounting Satoshi invented triple entry accounting.
Why are retards comparing a scientific breakthough like this to dutch flowers?
Grayson Lopez
Holy shit, I think I know you. DM me (kek)
>muh tulipz i'm p old but even i don't know what the fuck tulipmania is
that is some boomer shit, fucking kill yourself op
