Was Tito really a good leader? I've heard mostly positive things about him

What’s the feeling about Tito and market socialism in the ex Yugo countries? I read somewhere that communist nostalgia was high there, especially among people who were either too old or too young to fight in the wars in the 90s.

The guy was incredibly hardy though. He completed a major world trip in 1977 at the age of 85 which included visiting three continents.

everydaylifeinmaoistchina.org/2015/06/30/yugoslavian-president-josip-broz-tito-visits-china-in-1977/

fondly remembered among our boomers
everyone was well fed, had a job, but it was all built on rotten foundations
market socialism was market-oriented in name only, at least until the 80s and the reforms, when the debt piled up and inflation/shortages reared their ugly head
all of the domestic companies were extremely inefficient and had a system of "mandatory employment" in place. three dudes working a job meant for one man? you guessed it. unnecessary bureaucrats and secretaries? 30% of the work force
when debt kept accruing because of investments, shit could stay afloat, when it was used to finance wages, that's when it started unraveling
there were reforms planned in 1989 for a complete overhaul of the economy, but I guess we'll never know what could have been

Well being a veteran of both world wars will make you tough.

I’m of the opinion that market socialism (ie actual markets not the kind of quasi state-capitalist stuff Tito pulled) should be the next step in the evolution of society.

>everyone was well fed, had a job, but it was all built on rotten foundations

Namely that it relied on American and European money to function and as soon as Yugoslavia became less politically useful in the late 80s, the handouts started to decrease.

>making the worst cars the world had ever seen etc
I'm sure China has has even worse cars.

That's what he said. All the money borrowed from the US and Europe was initially used to fund economic ventures which created wealth, but then later it was used for gibesmedat which became a money sink.

Hmm I meant the Italian one

I don't think Serb nationalists liked him

youtube.com/watch?v=dCwv7-kYxIQ

eh, there are a lot of contradictory things in that term
you can't have motivated managers if you're giving everyone approximately the same wages, altruistic patrotism is a trait found few and far between

I see the odd yugo and zastava around once in a blue moon, there won't be any chink shit GreatWalls out there in 30 years that's for sure

He was Croatian; no shit they didn't like him.

Tbh I don’t have a problem with managers making more money, I’m more interested in making sure they are accountable to the workers.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile_Dacia

I can't imagine these were very good either or there's any left in existence.

>I see the odd yugo and zastava around once in a blue moon
in my town here in the south i see them almost everyday lel

Dacia is pretty popular throughout Europe and South America nowadays. They make some of the cheapest cars in the market.

Tito did nothing but benefit all the members of his state, in regards to "nationalism" serbs were put into a greater posistion as were everyone of the state with a stronger economy and military to ensure the survival and improvement of the identity.

he made savage tribes known as croats and serbs be friendly to each other for few decades

The modern ones built by Renault. I doubt any commie-era Dacias are still left.

we didn't like him just because he was a croat (boomers are praising him to this day), but you can say that he didn't like us because he was a croat

Serbia had a greater posistion in yugoslavia than they do now, having being part of a stronger nation.

In Bosnia every third car is a Golf Dvica

With more political power, population, political assurance and taxes.

During the war in 1992, Croatia had almost no military of their own because Serbia controlled most of Yugoslavia's military assets, so the US and Europe smuggled weapons to them which ensured their victory.

He thought Balkanoids how to walk on two legs also introduced fire to them.

Dacia is owned by Renault. But they produce their own cars in Romania and export them overseas. In fact, Dacias are sold with the Renault badge in some countries (As Renault has more prestige than Dacia), but they are still cars manufactured by Dacia in Romania.

"brotherhood and unity" was just a masquerade, in reality everything had been going into a direction for ensuring later independence of the republics, for example that grid system mentioned above which was not universal but made for the each country independently, followed later by territorial defense units by the same scheme etc.

that's what we need in Catalonia

This, brought them out of stoneage tribal warfare.

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There's no doubt a few crusty boomers keeping their baby alive in the states

Do you think that Tito or his successors intended for Yugoslavia to split in the long term, just not as suddenly or violently?

Is like the Soviet Union. The federal system Lenin created for national minorities led to its ultimate downfall.

...

Tito always intended for a collective leadership to succeed him, but I have no idea if he ever thought about what would happen in the long run after he was gone.

well they got some as many of the croats had deserted from yugoslav military and picked up weaponry along them, they later ambushed barracks on their territory and made them to give up weapons

there are some stories from the persons close to tito who claim that he didn't believe in yugoslavia and was preparing it for disintegration as early as '60s

Why must an independant Catalonian state exist?
Why can't Catalonia be Spanish?

Bill Clinton made them behave. Also Croatian/Bosnian war criminals were left completely go free.

because we simply aren't. And because remaining in Spain means the death of our people. Believe me, if we don't become independent, my grandchildren won't speak my language, or have the same national affiliations as me.

Indeed.

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>you simply aren't
How are you different to a castillian?
>death of our people
How is Catalonia only your people
>my language
?
>national affliations
Spanish

Why must a Catalonian state exist?
Catalonia can't exist as a province of spain with equal rights assured to all Spanish people?
What is the thought of the necessity of catalonian independence?

Do you not think it's a better idea to have a unified homogenous nation of 40 million than that of 4 million?
How would Cataloniand benefit from being part of a weaker government that can protect them and assure them more political and economical safety?

Spain isn't homogenous simply because you wish it to be so. Differing interests don't need to have a great deal of cultural or linguistic difference behind them anyway. How were american colonists different to the british when they declared independance? Or if you prefer, the southerners to the yankees?
>>my language
>?
Obviously catalan, you're just being facetious.

40 million comrades or 4 million?

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The catalonian government better represents the will of the catalonian people when it doesn't also need to represent the will of all 36 million other spaniards. It would allow them self determination that could otherwise be overruled by the rest of Spain.

Okay, I was going to answer but I realized its the crazy American poster who rambles about Iberian unity. Seriously, I think I will stop visiting Jow Forums. This guy is too obnoxious. I don't know if he's just playing a character of if he is really deranged, but it is pretty tiring. Besides, he seems to be here at all times. Perhaps it's several people just shitposting for fun.

I saw this Swede arguing with him on another thread. Don't bother.

Answer, 40 million or 4 million comrades, which is better

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What is better having 4 million or a 40 million tribe?

I will entertain you.
It's not something you choose. It is not in my hands to decide how many comrades I have. All I know is that Catalans are my only comrades and that currently, Spaniards are the enemy. I wouldn't trade a single Catalan for millions of Spaniards at my side.

Tell which is better having a 40 million country with numerous resources anf military power or belonging to a rump government?

The Catalonian government can not serve the catalonian people more than s centralized state of 40 million can and Catalonian population very much is identical to Castillians.

Catalonian nationalists should hate the seperatists that will give them a government that is multitudes of times politically weaker

i think he was very capable and did a pretty decent job in running such an complex country as yugoslavia was
he tried to make some amends to that with 1974 constitution which unfortunately proved insufficient as user here already pointed out

Why do you reply with three seperate posts?
It seems obnoxious.

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Spain gives the Spanish people peace, stability, chance for homogenity of 200k sq miles, lots of land, no borders or military threats to the people, and unity for 40 million.

>but I realized its the crazy American poster who rambles about Iberian unity.
EL IBERO

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Wrong pic sorry.

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Of course there are those who oppose our destiny and vision, for greatness and peace, progress to Iberian people.

There shall be homogenity of Spain and complete nationalization as a single unity.

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If Tito listened to Slovene and Croatian economists, and opened our markets, fully, to the world, we would have had a great chance

Who exactly is a Yugoslav?

A Yugoslav is a savage lover. The giant of Europe. What would the world think when the word "Balkan" popped up in their minds? The The Bulgarian? The Romanian or the Shqiptar? No. The Yugoslav. The man holding the shitshow of the region by its balls. Instituting quotas upon quotas of these peasants wanting to migrate to our country

Our own firearms and heavy duty industry
Gold mines in Kosovo and east Serbia
Oil and tourism in the Adriatic
Unmatched in sports, as we travel around the world to support our teams, carrying the blue, white, red flags, donning the foreign squares with our colours, at least a foot taller than the puny natives
The giants of Europe
Sex tourism 24/7 365 days a year, all the Scandinavian, Eastern European and German women wanting to have a taste of the volatile, tall, dark and raw Balkanian lover

Tell Merkel to fuck off
Shove the U.S Senate's and EU parliament's concerns up their crony asses
Treat Erdogan like a court fool during his "visits" to Bosnia
Laugh at Putin's supposed brotherly attempts at "defusing" the situation in the Balkans. They will jump as high as the Yugoslav tells them to
Cordial relations with our neighbours characterized by latent extreme prejudice

So, who exactly is a Yugoslav?
He's your friend, your confidant. He'll buy you a drink. He'll invite you to his house. But touch the wrong string, and you're dead in a ditch

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yugoslavism is highly unpopular in croatia(possibly even more so than in slovenia)
i think i read somewhere that a guy there was arrested for displaying the yugoslav flag on his house(i think he was a serb)

Why is there such hatred for unity?

Yugoslavia was ultimately an artificial state and so soon as Tito was gone, nationalistic butthurt came back.

Aren't all states artificial? Why Yugoslavia doesn't exist anymore or Afghanistan or mini Yugoslavia Bosnia & Herzegovina still exist? Ain't B&H artificial?

>Ain't B&H artificial?
ya and thats why its not a sustainable state

well richer republics considered yugoslavia a huge drain to their resources(slovenia and croatia accounted for about a half of total yugoslav economic output)
in the case of croatia this is even additionally worsened by the fact that croats consider yugoslavia as just a fancy name for greater serbia(which turned out somewhat true after tito's death)and also jna supported the serb rebels there and actively participated in their insurgency even going as far as to openly attack croatia(see battle of vukovar)

Not a good leader and not reall a marxist.

Yes, living standard during his reign in now ex-Yugoslav countries was probably the best that we ever had, mostly due to western credits and funds based on the fact Yugoslavia was obstacle to Soviet expansion (especially before Stalins death).

Other than being west's bitch, Tito's regime had made multitude of grave mistakes that led to the disintegration of Yugoslavia and wars during 90's.

To name a few:
> Poorly performed federalization that led to awakening of old and creation of new national identities
> Premature transition to self-management when industrialisation wasn't complete
> Assassinations and arrests of mostly Serbian communist, and more importantly unitarists (Krcun, Rankovic, Blagoje Neskovic, Sreten Zujovic)
> Inadequate response to separatist leanings in Croatia (MASPOK), they should have been executed for treason
> Complete and utter destruction of every left critique of the regime (Stalinists, Trotskyists, 1968 protesters, ...), negating of every modern development of marxist theory while funding moronic ideas like praxis phioosophy

Also forgot to mention CPY/LCY purges that ocurred before/during WW2, especially back-stabbings of Yugoslav Trotskyists during Spanish Civil War

>Not a good leader and not reall a marxist

If he ever was at one time, he must have been thoroughly scared out of it by watching the original CPY get completely destroyed in Stalin's purges. How he himself survived is unclear, but as soon as the dust settled, he hightailed it out of the Soviet Union fast.

This is just fucking ridiculous, he survived by being a loyal Stalin's bitch, there is nothing unclear about that.
And I think it's important to note that it was not Tito's wish for sovereignity but Stalin's paranoia that led to Informbiro resolution and Yugo-Soviet split, claiming anything else is just plain delusional.

Catalonia for Catalonians desu

Enver Hoxha. Yugoslav “Self-Administration”: A Capitalist Theory and Practice. Tirana: 8 Nëntori Publishing House. 1978. pp. 39-40.

“The loans it has received amount to over 11 billion dollars. From the United States of America alone Yugoslavia has received over 7 billion dollars in credits.”

– Ibid. pp. 25-26.

“Yugoslavia is up to its neck in debts and cannot repay them with more loans. In that country there is immense unemployment, inflation is galloping, prices are going up every day beyond the reach of ordinary working people.”

– Enver Hoxha, Selected Works Vol. 4, p. 531.

Khrushchev went to Yugoslavia in 1955 to try and fix up the damage caused by Stalin. He made a speech in Belgrade claiming that secret police head Lavrentia Beria was really responsible, but Tito wasn't buying it and he told the translator to cut it off because "No need; we all understand Russian anyway." which of course was false since most people in Yugoslavia did not understand Russian.

Ultimately, Khrushchev had hoped he'd get Yugoslavia to join the Soviet bloc and reduce their economic and military ties with the West, but he still had to play the nice guy and not pressure them into recognizing East Germany. He also said Soviet economic assistance would be offered in exchange for "cooperation", but didn't press the issue. In the interest of being a good neighbor, he disbanded the Cominform and encouraged the Eastern European leaders to restore ties with Yugoslavia.

When Tito reciprocated the visit by going to Moscow a year later, the Soviets gave him a huge welcome with enormous crowds sent to greet him and a 21 gun salute. However, they ended up being sorely disappointed after realizing that Tito had no intention of changing his nonaligned foreign policy stance and worse, even started offering his brand of independent socialism to the Soviet bloc, especially Poland and Hungary. Khrushchev and Tito appeared together in Moscow's Dinamo Stadium in an apparent display of unity, but the speech the former made was censored when it appeared in the Yugoslav press.

Define Catalonia first.

Why should someone born in say gerona care about a catalonian government?
Why not care about a government that is larger and better in every way?

Later on, Khrushchev complained to the Yugoslav ambassador about a "disgusting" caricature that appeared in the newspaper Politik showing a bloated, bald, fat man with multiple chins seated next to Soviet Vice Premier Lazar Kaganovich. The ambassador claimed it was supposed to be Eisenhower (sure it was).

A Catalonian government will not care about someonw born in Catalonia anymore than a central Spanish government.

>fancy name for a greater serbia
Yeah, right.

You do realize you're speaking about country led by a Croat (Tito) with most of its legislations written by a Slovenian (Kardelj). Serbs as a national majority were split in three republics, two of whom (B&H and Montenegro) were formed on a basis of artificially produced national identities. and the third one (Serbia) further split by creating autonomous provinces.

Also to mention the purges of Serbian communists, the fact that Croats were controlling state security after 1966/67 events and the 1974 constitution that gave Croats and Slovenians everything they wanted.

The interwar KoY was really a Greater Serbia project but the postwar SRY was anything but.

The only difference is that now your government is weaker and smaller with neighbors now, there us no reason catalonia must exist and so it wont and ensure the peace, stability and unity of the region.

But see then, all the shit that went down in the 90s happened because Serbs somehow convinced themselves that Yugoslavia=Serbia.

A Bulgarian/Yugoslav merger was briefly considered after the war and even including Albania for a bit.

If you want a union you should never habe distinctions.

No and you can see how that ultimately broke the Soviet Union.

It’s the mark of CHI Guevara, an infamous “Cuban” Jow Forumstard who thinks he’s Spanish.

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Lyl who'd want Albania anyway?

Can't be all bad. At least all the Cetnik/Ustashifags were either sent to Goli Otok or shot and thrown into a mine shaft with a bag of quicklime.

Tito was relatively benevolent and Yugoslavs had freedoms unknown in the Soviet bloc such as the ability to visit Western countries freely and private enterprise and farming was allowed. On the other hand of course it was still a one party state and you couldn't criticize the government or Tito without being v&.

Here have an OC IBERO

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More slovenes have positive opionion about yugoslavia than negative

It was not, in 1915 brits offered us vojvodina, bosnia, montenegro coastal parts of croatia and krajna and slavonia if we fuck off with yugoslav indentity and let italians take dalmatia (back them the were deciding which side to take apart). Its called london agreement
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_London_(1915)