/lang/ - Language & Linguistics

I feel like this should be a discord channel

Don't start this again

What do you guys think about the passive aspects of learning a language? I mean, when it comes to vocabulary, syntax, etc.
I particularly think it is a mistake when we get the impression that everything we learn must necessarily become part of our active vocabulary. Listening/reading/etc is way more important for a solid understanding of a language in the long run. Kids listen to people talking for years until they can start speaking with a vocabulary that allows them to express complex ideas and fancy structures. Ironically or not, most of their understanding of the language is kind of backed up by that passive vocabulary they don't even realize they have stored in their heads, due to their mostly passive exposure to the language all the time.
Speaking right from the beginning is important, sure, but it seems most people just ignore that the amount of words you passively know in the languages you speak are always more numerous than the words that you actively use in your core vocabulary, so it's kind of impossible (and even delusional) to think that you should have an active vocabulary that is equal to all the words you know passively, specially those words that you're familiar with only when they're used in a particular given context, and things like that.
Just some observations I made, hope it can be useful for people that get discouraged because they somewhat think their active vocabulary isn't that great yet.

Most of what you read about language learning is bullshit. The best you can hope for is to have a very basic speaking level, everything above that comes from being around native speakers and thus this is not a realistic goal.

what language should i learn

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deutsch uezs

Or you're just bad at learning languages

> Romanian is in the eastern Romance family

almost Slavic, one might say

No, I'm above average in language learning, but I'm also a realist.

k

I've take three semesters of French and two of Latin. Will be starting Ancient Greek and German in August

It depends on your first language, the language you're learning, how close that language structurally is to the languages you already know, whether the language has grammatical patterns that are similar to the ones you already know or not etc. There are so many factors at play that it's impossible to generalize, and if you use language learning advice the wrong way without taking into consideration all of these things then you're probably going to have a hard time, o just find them useless right away

Most people tend to have some trouble with the linguistic aspects they're not used to (the ones that are not in use in the languages they speak), these are the weak points that demans you to give them some special attention, for example slavic speakers struggle with articles and when to use them in a sentence, germanic speakers have a hard time with verbal conjugation when learning romance languages, english speakers with gendered nouns, romance speakers with the pronunciation and phrasal verbs, etc

Speaking with native speakers is important, but it is perfectly possible to learn a language without being surrounded by native speakers all the time depending on the effort you put on it

Getting used to the language learning process makes it easier in the long run as well, but you obviously will need a couple of years of study for you to become good at the language

Obrigado, baseado user brasileiro.

Have a good friday everyone, take it easy but don't forget your lang studies.

Easy
>I do this every time.
>We went from A to B.
>He owns a German car.
>Give it to them.
>She refused it.

Normal
>He obviously likes her a lot.
>Henry knew that Sally was likely not to cry.
>It's fun to play tennis.
>He said he was not there yesterday.
>Italy is my favorite country.

Hard
>Each generation has its few great mathematicians, and mathematics would not even notice the absence of the others. They are useful as teachers, and their research harms no one, but it is of no importance at all. A mathematician is great or he is nothing.
>Happiness is open to all, since, when you boil it down, it merely consists of contentment with what you have got and doing what you can for other people.

Das mache ich jedes Mal
Wir gingen von A nach B
Er besitzt ein deutsches Auto
Gib es ihnen
Sie hat es ablehnen

Er mag sie offensichtlich sehr
Henry wusste, dass Sally wahrscheinlich nicht weinen würde
Tennisspielen macht Spaß
Er sagte, dass er gestern nicht da war
Italien ist mein Lieblingsland (please stop making me type this lie)

>google translate

>I do this every time.
Robię to za każdym razem.
>We went from A to B.
Idziemy od A do B.
>He owns a German car.
On posiada niemiecki samochód.
>Give it to them.
Daj to im.
>She refused it.
Odmówiła to.

I'll try the normal ones later.

I occasionally use it to check my work, but what's wrong here

Sie lehnte es ab.
Or: Sie hat es abgelehnt.
That feel when I cannot into English grammar.

Shit, that was the only word I used Google Translate for too

ablehnen is infinitive
to refuse, to turn down, to snub, decline bla etc.

(((generative grammar)))

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>Idziemy
Szłyśmy*

Didn't pay enough attention to the tense. Whoops.

ablehnen

ich lehne ab
du lehnst ab
er/sie/es lehnt ab

wir lehnen ab
ihr lehnt ab
sie lehnen ab

die Ablehnung

Yeah for some reason I forgot it was a separable prefix and my brain turned off

我每次做这个
我们去了从A到B
他拥有一辆德国的车
你给他们它把
她拒绝它

>Robię to za każdym razem.
Correct.
>Szłyśmy od A do B.
Correct, depending on the context. You could have also used perfective verbs like "poszłyśmy", "przeszłyśmy", "doszłyśmy".
>On posiada niemiecki samochód.
Correct.
>Daj to im.
Correct. It's a bit more natural if you swap the word order to "Daj im to". "Daj to im" isn't wrong by any means though and people sometimes say it in that order too.
>Odmówiła to.
Odmówiła tego.

Pretty good, but you might want to change:
>On posiada niemiecki samochód.
to:
>On ma niemiecki samochód.

posiada means possesses which sounds way too formal in this sentence while ma is just the basic word for has.
For instance:
>Lidl posiada 50 sklepów w Portugalii.
Lidl has/possesses/owns 50 stores in Portugal.
then you have
>Lidl ma 50 sklepów w Portugalii.
Lidl has 50 stores in Portugal.

You can use both as they're both correct, but you use the first one officially like in an announcement while you use the latter informally, like when talking to people on the street.

I think it may work if you’re very exposed to the language (like a kid would). If you listen to music a couple of hours, you won’t advance much.

Easy
>I do this every time.
Ich mache das jedes Mal.
>We went from A to B.
Wir gingen von A nach B
>He owns a German car.
Er besitzt ein Deutsches Auto.
>Give it to them.
Gibt es ihnen.
>She refused it.
Sie lehnen es ab.

Normal
>He obviously likes her a lot.
Er magt sie offensichtlich sehr
>It's fun to play tennis.
Es ist Spaß, Tennis zu spielen
>Italy is my favorite country.
Italien ist mein lieblingsland

*Lieblingsland

Latin, Ancient Greek, Sanskrit (easy)

Easy
>I do this every time.
Hoc facio quaque occasione.
kαιρῷ ἕkαστῳ τούτο πράττω.
पदेपदेतत्करोमि (padepadetatkaromi)
>We went from A to B.
Iit ab A ad B.
ἔβη ἀπὸ Α ἐπὶ Β.
प्रागच्छत् A उप B (praagacchat A upa B)
>He owns a German car.
Ei est carrus Germanus.
αὐτῷ ἐστὶ ἅμαξα Γερμανιkή.
तस्यरक्ष (tasyaraksha)
>Give it to them.
Da id eis.
δίδου αὐτοῖς αὐτό.
ददातत्तस्मै (dadaatattasmai)
>She refused it.
Ea id recusavit.
αὐτὸν οὐk ἐδέξατο.
तदादङ्नोत् (tadaadaghnot) (not sure here how the perfective augment affects verbs beginning with long a)

Normal
>He obviously likes her a lot.
Quippe eam valde amat.
αὐτὴν φανερῶς φίλει.
>Henry knew that Sally was likely not to cry.
Henricus scivit Salliam credibile non esse ploraturam.
Ἑνριος ἔγνω Σάλλιαν οὐ δαkρύσειν ὡς ἔοιkε.
>It's fun to play tennis.
Jucundum est tenisiam ludere.
ἡδὺ ἐστὶ τένις παίζειν. (I took the modern Greek word for 'tennis' here.)
>He said he was not there yesterday.
Dixit se cras ibi non esse.
ἔλεξε ὅτι αὐτὸν ἐνταύθεν οὐk ἦν.
>Italy is my favorite country.
Italiam praefero optime.
Ιταλίαν αἱρούμαι μάλιστα.

Hard
>Each generation has its few great mathematicians, and mathematics would not even notice the absence of the others. They are useful as teachers, and their research harms no one, but it is of no importance at all. A mathematician is great or he is nothing.
Aetati quaeque sunt mathematici magni pauci, et mathematica ceteros absentes ne quidem sentiat. Praeceptores sunt utiles, et investigationes eorum nemini obsunt, nil vero interest. Mathematicus est magnus aut turpis.
γενεᾳ ἕkαστῃ εἰσὶ αὐτῆς λογιστιkοὶ (μαθημάων) μεγἀλοι ὀλιγοὶ, kαὶ τὰ μαθήματα ἄλλους ἀπόνας μη μανθάνῃ. διδάσkαλοι εἰσὶ χρήσιμοι, kαὶ ἡ ἐξέταςις αὐτῶν οὐk ἐστὶ βλαβερά, ἀλλα ἀξίωμα οὐk ἐστὶ αὐτῇ. λογιστιkὸς ἐστὶ μέγας ἢ ἄχρηστος.
>Happiness is open to all, since, when you boil it down, it merely consists of contentment with what you have got and doing what you can for other people.
Beatitudo omnibus executi potest, quia destillata constitit tantum plenitudinem rerum quae sunt vobis et quae alliis complere potes.
ἡ εὐτυχία ὑπὸ ἄλλων λαμβανέσθαι δύναται, ἐπεὶ τῇ ἀληθείᾳ (in truth) σύγkειται ἐk τῆς εὐπαθείας οἳς εἰσὶ σοὶ kαὶ ἀλλοῖς πράττειν ἃ δύναμαι.

nice edition btw
OP is this you? I'd like to continue the discussion

we are disagreeing on terminology, but I don't know if it's just a linguistic confusion or a disagreement in concepts

>Yeah, we've all been children at some point and we've all acquired one or more languages in childhood. You probably mean "learn", though.
No, I specifically don't. Adults who become fluent in a foreign language also acquire that language. The "learning" adults do (grammar drills, textbooks) never results in natural fluency, they never actually acquire the language, because they are merely learning ABOUT the language. I want to make this learn/acquire distinction

>Chomsky basically says that ACQUIRING a language (as a child) is about "wiring", whereas LEARNING a language (as an adult) is about "rewiring". There's nothing illogical about this, in my opinion.
Hmmm
I do like the metaphor
but I think it's more about "learning to rewire, so that you may acquire"

to reiterate:
to speak a language, you must acquire it. When it comes to fluency, there is only acquisition. Rote learning does not lead to language ability. You cannot learn to ride a bike by reading a book, and you cannot acquire a language from what you learn in textbooks either.

>ajatt is a massive meme made by a conartist to sell e books and you should feel bad for shilling his scam. I dare you to learn 3k kanji at 25 per day without shooting yourself in heisig’s shitty “method” where he attaches a random english keyphrase that is so archaic you literally have to google the meaning. You probably haven’t even tried ajatt but you’re so hyped over it for whatever reason you’re shilling it out the ass. Try it first, and see me after four months of nothing but kanji, we’ll see how much you love ajatt
alri mate steady on. Did you try AJATT and burn out then?

>made by a conartist to sell e books and you should feel bad for shilling his scam.
no.
Granted, he DID sell out at some point and start shilling some e-course shit but it's disparate from the core methodology... just ignore that.
you sound like you already know about it but here's a video for anyone else reading youtube.com/watch?v=J34i9lr94pI
also look at Mattvsjapan's videos

>You probably haven’t even tried ajatt but you’re so hyped over it for whatever reason you’re shilling it out the ass.
I haven't, not with Japanese anyway, because I'm not learning Japanese. But I just really like the ideas behind it and it lays in out in an understandable method and it's applicable to any language.
what's there to shill? It's just an idea. I'm not saying buy e-books or anything it's literally a freely available blog with hundreds of videos and stuff about it

A_ATT is basically just a codeword for "constant immersion" and some nuance on how to achieve that

Polish (Normal)

>Oczywiście, on bardzo jej lubi
>Henry było pewny, że Sally nie będzie płakało
>Jest fajne grać w tenisa
>On powiedziałem, że wczoraj go tu nie było
>Włochy jest ulubiony kraj

>to reiterate:
to speak a language, you must acquire it. When it comes to fluency, there is only acquisition. Rote learning does not lead to language ability. You cannot learn to ride a bike by reading a book, and you cannot acquire a language from what you learn in textbooks either.
Just practice the damn language and dont overthink it

>Easy
>I do this every time.
Faccio questo tutte le volte.
>We went from A to B.
Abbiamo andato da A a B.
>He owns a German car.
Ha una macchina tedesca.
>Give it to them.
-
>She refused it.
-

>Normal
>He obviously likes her a lot.
A lui ovviamente piace lei tanto.
>Henry knew that Sally was likely not to cry.
Henry sapeva che Sally probabilmente non piangeria.
>It's fun to play tennis.
Il tennis è divertente.
>He said he was not there yesterday.
Ha detto che non stava lì ieri.
>Italy is my favorite country.
L'Italia è il mio paese preferito.

I did what I could.

I know that, but we're having a discussion because it interests us, what is your problem? Begone, demon.

I guess we're not having a discussion anymore, because now you had to get butthurt and meta.

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Es to daru visu laiku
Mēs gājām no A uz B
Viņam ir vācu automašīna/ viņš pieder vācu automašīnu
iedod to viņiem
And thats all I can do

Jedes generation hatte ihre grosse Mathmatikkeren, und die mathematikk würde nicht die fehlung der anderes merken. Sie sind brauchend als lehrer, und ihre untersuchungen weht nieman tun, aber es hatte keine sinn. Ein mathematikker sind entweder gross oder nichts.

die freue ist öffen zum allen, weil, wenn man er verkurtzt, wäre es nur am die vergenungikeit mit was du hast und was du für andere leute machen kannst.

I probably fucking butchered it, please do correct me. I just got the equivalent of a C- in my german written finals. Probably gonna neck myself because of it.

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Had der Unibomber das über Matimattiker gesagt?

Ich bin nicht sicher, aber es klingt doch als etwas er sagen könnte.

Könntest du bitte meine letzte kommentar korrigeren?

meme

heh. I also got a B- on my German class.

but your translation seems a bit, literal word-for-word. Like, Germans wouldn't say the sentence in the way that English people say the sentence, if you know what I mean.

for one thing,
> mathematics would not even notice the absence of the others
> die mathematikk würde nicht die fehlung der anderes merken

> They are useful as teachers
> Sie sind brauchend als lehrer

> A mathematician is great or he is nothing.
> Ein mathematikker sind entweder gross oder nichts.

I can't put my finger on it, but it sounds wrong, like it was put straight into Google Translate

also research is Forschung

Hi lads, I thought getting some kind of certification that proves I can speak English well because it will probably do me good career-wise.
I have been looking at some models of C1 and C2 exams like Cambridge English and I feel pretty confident for the most part but I think I could still improve a little for the C2 one, so my question is: how would I go about doing this?
I already browse a lot of English sites and communities where I use it daily and also read books in English, but after a certain point it's harder to improve so I'm wondering if you guys know some study material I could use.
Also if somebody here knows about this, I'm curious what organization you guys would think is best to get a cert from.

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Jedes Mal tue ich das
Wir haben von A bis B gegangen
Er hat ein deutsches Auto
Geben Sie das ihnen
Sie hat es abgelehnt

Sichtlich ist sie ihm gefallen
Henry wusste, dass Sally war keine Heulsuse
Es ist ganz toll Tennis zu spielen
Er hat gesagt, dass er ist hier gestern nicht gewesen
Italien ist mein Lieblingsort/Lieblingsland

De nada, caro Manuel

Easy
>俺はいつもこれをしている。
>俺たちはAからBに行った。
>彼にはドイツの車がある。
>彼らにそれをあげて。
>彼女は断った。

Normal
>彼は明らかに彼女のことが大好きだ。
>ヘンリーはセリーが泣けないだろうと知っていた
>テニスをするのは楽しい。
>彼は、昨日あそこにいなかったと言った
>イタリアは俺の一番好きな国だ。

Hard
>世代が進むとそれぞれ少しの偉い数学者がいて、他なのは数学が彼らの欠勤にも気づかないわけだ。教師としては便利で、彼らの研究が誰にも傷つけなくても代わりに全然無駄なのだ。数学者は偉大でないのなら、駄目だ。
>幸福は誰でも届けるものだ。ちなみに、幸福のことを見ると、ただ生活を送るに必要なもの、人に役立ちになることにおける満足感で建てられると気づくんだ。

>OP is this you?
Yep, that was me

>You cannot learn to ride a bike by reading a book, and you cannot acquire a language from what you learn in textbooks either.
I never said that and I'm not advocating that either. Exposure is definitely essential for both children and adults. But that's not the point I'm trying to make here. I'm only talking about the terminology.
In linguistics, "acquiring a language" is only ever used to refer to children, whereas "learning a language" is used for adults who learn a second language.
"Acquiring" implies not only that you've learned that language but also that you've successfully mastered and internalized the essence of its structure and all of its subtleties. It becomes 100% intuitive to you.
Adults, on the other hand, can never do this for a language they've learned after the critical period because they'll always lack the (native) intuition required to do so. They'll always be hesitant to innovate and produce constructions they haven't seen before, resorting instead to the ones they're familiar with. After all, "better safe than sorry." And this is something that I know I do, despite being fluent in English since I was 13 and being able to write this whole explanation without getting stuck at grammar.

Norwegian (Bokmål) vs Italian, what is easier to learn for a native English speaker?

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Norwegian, without a doubt.

Je fais ça chaque fois.
Nous sommes allés d'A à B
Il a une voiture allemande.
Donne-le-leur.
Elle l'a refusé.

Il l'aime évidemment beaucoup.
Henry (ou Henri) a su que Sally allait probablement crier.
C'est amusant de jouer au tennis.
Il a dit qu'il n'était pas là hier.
L'Italie est mon pays favori.

Chaque génération a son peu de grands mathématiciens, et la mathématique ne remarquerait même pas l'absence des autres. Ils sont utiles en tant qu'enseignants, et leur recherche fait du mal à personne, mais c'est d'aucune importance. Un mathématicien est grand ou il n'est rien.
Le bonheur est ouvert à tous, puisque, quand on se le ramène, il ne fait que consister de contentement à ce qu'on a et de faire ce qu'on peut pour les autres.

Did he really say that? Where's the quote from?

Ok, that's fine. My bad for not knowing the conventional linguistic terminology
I still disagree with you though, but at least now I understand.
p.s. your English is C2 99th percentile quality, best I've seen in an ESL

great post

Yo te diría que te prepares para esos exámenes en particular, parte de aprobar es saber inglés, y la otra parte es tener práctica haciendo esos exámenes

>My bad for not knowing the conventional linguistic terminology
No worries. Having a discussion like this is always nice to keep some essential concepts fresh in the mind.

>I still disagree with you though
And it's totally fine to disagree. This is just the perspective of Generative Linguistics. There are other schools of linguistics with different views on this topic, though Generative Linguistics has consistently been the one yielding the best results since the 60s.

>your English is C2 99th percentile quality, best I've seen in an ESL
Th-thanks, y-you too c:

I've always thought of IELTS as the best one
Widely recognised internationally. Balanced.
There's no pass/fail you just get a grade for whatever level you are

I would choose the exam you want to do, and then look at the structure of the exam, and decide what it is you need to practise most (reading, writing etc)

Whatever you do, just don't fall for that Michigan ECPE shit. I took it and passed with an excellent score but it's literally not recognized anywhere, despite being equivalent to the Cambridge ECPE in difficulty

Estoy de acuerdo. Además en esos exámenes hay partes como el writing donde a la hora de evaluar cada institución tiene sus propios criterios y conviene familiarlizarse con el formato de sus exámenes.
Looked into it a bit, seems pretty good. I like the fact that you'd get a lower grade instead of nothing if you screw up and also that you book a date for the test and just do it. As far as I know, some tests require you to attend a number of classes before taking the exam.
Thank you for the advice.

there already is one

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what are some good children's shows that are either in French or have French dubs that are good for a beginner?

french is gay
learn deutsch

no

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Frenchies lost the Kulturkampf and are only useful for being laughed at
> tfw frogoids sound like if theyre chocking on cock whenever they speak

who wants to learn dutch, its a nothing language.
Dutch people speak english anyway

kek excellent bait

Easy
>Bunu her zaman yaparım
>A'dan B'ya gittik
>Onun almanca arabayı var
>Onlara ver
>O reddetti
Normal
>Onu belki ki seviyor
>Henry, Sally'nin ağlamasının muhtemel olmadığını biliyordu
>Tenis oynamak eğlencelidir
>Dün burada değildir diye söyledi
>İtalya en sevdiğim ülke

>reddeti

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Fun fact, in Latin reddit is third person singular active of reddo, which means
I give back, return, restore.
I give up, hand over, deliver, render, provide, assign
I surrender, resign.
I give or pay back; take revenge for, punish, inflict vengeance for.
I repeat, declare, report, narrate, recite, rehearse.
I represent, imitate, express, resemble.
I return in profit.

lol wtf is that? sorry you got mugged off bro

>As far as I know, some tests require you to attend a number of classes before taking the exam.
I don't think that's true for Cambridge tests
>I like the fact that you'd get a lower grade instead of nothing if you screw up
yeah it's cool isn't it
I know people who have done it, it doesn't seem hard to get a decent (7+) score
for some reasons IELTS results officially have a "validity period" of two years though. Cambridge ones are permanent

bump

bump again

Not really. At least I have a certificate. I'd still have to take the TOEFL or IELTS if I wanted to go to a foreign uni, but at least it's enough for C2 bragging rights, I guess

what language should i learn.
I want to
A. learn a language that isn’t from a shithole irrelevant country
B. learn a language I can easily find media in dubbed and or subtitled
C. a language with a large internet presence so I can shitpost in it

i have never formally and truly attempted language learning and have always quit because i was learning a meme language or a language with zero media in it in which the inhabitants of said country that spoke the language told me to stop, so I did. If anyone has learned a language that meet these three categories pls share

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Step 1. Don't listen to people like that
Otherwise, learn Russian or Chinese, those two are probably the ones with the largest internet presence and the least likely to upset your feelings

Brazilian Portuguese:
>not irrelevant
Check
>easy to find media in, dubbed or subtitled
Check
>internet presence for shitposting purposes
Check

Why would I not listen to them? If they tell me they’re a shithole and to avoid it, it’s nothing personal and my ‘feelings’ aren’t hurt, they’re helping me avoid their problems, and I appreciate that. Why would I blindly trash that?

Portuguese is definitely an option and meets those categories but sadly romance languages (with the exception of French which is still pretty irrelevant and scarce of content, and most french speakers are in Africa) come from hostile / impoverished / low opportunity cunts, and I have some pretty eh impressions of Brazil after some convos with my roommate who’s from Brazil.
Hmmm...

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German fits all 3

>doing Swedish adjectives on duolingo
>9 lessons and I can't review any until completing all of them
Who thought this was a good idea

Shitalian then?

What age are the children ?

I could preach for my parish but French sounds good wirh these catzgories.
Otherwise, I would go for German, as this user said

Do any of know where I cpuld find a list of expression that would make my speaking ability in the foreign language more authentic and more elaborate ? Some may say that it refers to formal language but it doesn't really matter. The list doesn't have to be particularly specific meaning no need to be related to a particular field.
I would like to find lists in English and German.
To be more understandable, i'll give a few example in english :
> ill-goten gain
> to cash in on
> to pitch in
> conspicuous comsuption
etc

have you tried visiting forvo?

Du är en bög

What happened to French, senpai?

Bara för dig

I'm just looking for anything with simple subject manner and preferably isn't too long

O-oanständigt

because you need to form your own opinion, people can tell you shit but you need to experience things for yourself sometimes.

Fuck em both. Learn Russian