Hello Jow Forums,
I'm French and I'd like to know how French Universities are perceived abroad: which French university do you know? What's its reputation in your country?
For instance, everybody in France know the MIT, Stanford or Cambridge or even the LSE, which are known to be great and prestigious institutions. What would be the French equivalent in your mind?
Second time you make this thread.
Anyway French universities are hardly known around here since they don't market themselves in English and thus aren't part of the international world.
I only know the Ecole Polytechnique.
Sorbonne is the most famous by far. Then probably Sciences Po. After that, it's not clear to most people.
>since they don't market themselves in English
Our universities hardcore market themselves in English (mine even came up with a retarded slogan. "The university to discover"... whatever the hell that may even mean) but nobody knows of them. In fact, outside of the Ivy League US universities and Oxbridge, there are no really widely known universities. Maybe Tokyo U for weeaboos.
Yes but then again we don't have any delusions about our universities being world class unlike the French.
Sorbonne
Yeah, but on paper there's no reason why French universities shouldn't be on the same level as British universities. They're not all that different int erms of overall demographics, funding or even historical academic achievement. The problem is that Oxbridge are private, for-profit institutions which need to uphold a certain standard in order to attract students willing to pay their weight in gold for fees, university grants from the government, sales for its university press et cetera. Meanwhile, in France, all universities are state institutions. They're effectively nationalize and, like all nationalized institutions, there's no competition ergo no drive to improve. Hence French students being able to go to university "for free", but in the end you get what you pay for.
An institution like Université de Paris could easily catch up to Oxbridge in a decade or two if they just privatized.
>They're effectively nationalize and, like all nationalized institutions, there's no competition ergo no drive to improve
I forgot there isn't even a drive to break even. How much they do or do not spend is all based on what's politically acceptable. If politics has a lack of funding, they spend less on education. If they want to win brownie points with student voters, they invest more. The quality of education is therefore entirely dependent on the political landscape. In private institutions like Oxbridge or the Ivy League a high level of education persists regardless of what happens in politics because -outside of grants- their funding is stable independent of the government.
The problem is French chauvinism. They will never let any of their universities privatize while at the same time will not even accept the notion they're doing worse than the British and Americans. They rather live in delusion than change things.
The real cream of higher education in France is not in universities but in the Grandes Ecoles system.
The top ones are almost all public, like Polytechnique which is still technically a military school managed by the army.
They're hyper-selective and rely on entry exams for which you need to suffer at least 2 years of some of the most intensive cram course you can imagine to even have a shot at.
>The problem is French chauvinism.
Not per se. The French are far from as proud as many people think, and in fact the British have quite a level of arrogance as well. Many of them think in terms of "our blessed island" and "those savage continentals" (which for some reason includes Ireland?).
The problem is what Édouard Philippe described as the French "addiction to the state". It's not like French politicians are too proud to privatize education, it's that the French people will riot if they even consider bringing it up. This is why Macron's presidency is both a good and a bad thing: it's good because he's slowly weaning the French off their addiction to the state, but it's bad because the guy has at best 10 years to do it (if not a mere 5). Who's to say the French won't vote for another demagogue who tries to bribe them with their own money after that?
Giving non-taxpayers the vote was a mistake.
I only know about HEC
>The French are far from as proud as many people think, and in fact the British have quite a level of arrogance as well.
Well duh.
I have been following british press for a time now, and I can tell you, the bongs are obsessed with France and attempting to prove that they are better than us, meanwhile they are barely mentioned at all here, except for all the gossip shit about the royal family.
It's like they have a pole up their arse about the "Continent" in general and France in particular.
meant for
love how you're saying that all the countrues around france are "barely mentioned" in the news, do you talk just about yourself?
You have reading comprehension issues.
The ENS is the best France has to offer and it's ranked 48th in the world. It's not even the best for public learning institutions institutions (that's the ETH in Zürich at 8).
The ENS could become a world class institution if it just. fucking. privatized. But that's politically unacceptable in France because its entire contemporary social contract is founded on the idea that the people pay high taxes and get high quality services in return. Then they get shit tier services in return because said services are shielded from the free market by the government, then the French get upset that they're paying loads emone for shit tier services. Then you get a guy like Macron trying to open up the system, followed up by the French people going into full withdrawal, striking and rioting because they believe they can't survive without the state babying them from the cradle to the grave.
I'm not going to say the Netherlands is in a better position (though it is... very slightly), I'm just saying that overall this system where the government bribes the people with shit tier services rather than letting the market offer superior services is retarded. This is precisely why the only two countries that matter in terms of higher education are also known for having privatized higher education.
yeah why is that a thing? Seems rather useless except for isolating the already inclusive ruling class
I don't know any french university but im sure there exists some uni for a small percentile.
>and it's ranked 48th in the world
According to what criterias? Those schools don't work exactly like universities and don't have the same focus.
>The ENS could become a world class institution if it just. fucking. privatized.
It's a fucking school meant to train public administrators, of course it's not private and it has no reason to even try.
Because it works.
At what exactly?
>60 per cent of the chief executives in France's 100 largest firms are graduates of the Grandes Ecoles
Gee I dunno
There's like 100 people there.
>Universities
No selection, free. It's where garbage young people go if they don't want to work.
>Grandes Ecoles
>Extreme selection, ever harder to stay in
>Some of them pay you to stay in
That's where the elite of the nation go.
None. Maybe because you're not liked here since you're seen as haters.
and this makes french administration much more efficient than german or british administration? Looks like your average cartel/circlejerk made to enforce a certain line of thougth
Any uni can be bribed as they are instutions working for money so obviously upper class will have more people in upper class posistio .
You got a point, but the fact they are public doesn't make them less good academically because of some lack of competition or whatever (just check the ENS Fields medals awards number compared to their size...) it just makes them underfounded compared to their anglo-saxon equivalents, and thus they can welcome wayyyy less students every year so less people to form a network and give the school a good reputation across the world. Anglo universities also tend to hire nobel prices winners as their proffesors, and judge the academical quality of a university by judging the teachers, rather than the students, which is the opposite in France. Another solution though would be to merge several Grandes Écoles into one big structure that would be able to compete with a foreign university, this was tried but l'École Polytechnique refused because they were afraid this would diminish the quality of the teaching they were giving as they have much higher standards than other schools, this gives you an idea of the French mentality when it comes to Grandes Écoles and why we can't compete in international rankings yet.
>firms
>public administration
We have science Po for to keep the future ruling class away from the lot. The other Grandes Ecoles make the people who get shit done.
The French administration is a nightmare and possibly the least efficient one in the world. When you learn that you have to deal with it, you know your day is ruined.
I only know about Harvard Yale, Oxbridge, Trinity and Todai
These schools form engineers and trade jews, not people working in the administration
Did you miss the part where top Grandes Ecoles are public, and some you even get paid to attend?
It's literally a remnant of Napoleonic elitism and extreme selection.
>The ENS is the best France has to offer and it's ranked 48th in the world
Source?
I ask because I know there is a lot of chink studies around about and they only use the total number of former pupils with positions/patents, so it's really just a ranking of the biggest universities, not the best.
France isn't famous for its educational system nor for the skill of their managers. Other G7 countries (except us) fare at least as well as you do without this system
You are even supposed to work for the state one or two years after it, but that's not enforced anymore.
Hm
Yeah, and owing to the fact that those schools are deliberately kept small to increase selection, that they don't appear in those rankings is no surprise.
>According to what criterias?
topuniversities.com
Even according to other rankings, it consistently ranks and has ranked in the 18-45 range.
>but the fact they are public doesn't make them less good academically because of some lack of competition or whatever
They do though. The entire point is that nationalized institutions (whether they're universities, manufacturors or indeed your railways) either become wasteful or relatively low quality because they're shielded from all competition or even the need to break even.
>just check the ENS Fields medals awards number compared to their size
That's but one of many ways to classify the standards of education of an institution. Also, if you want to look at awards, France has been underperforming in terms of Nobel Prizes for decades whereas America and the UK are overperforming.
>it just makes them underfounded compared to their anglo-saxon equivalents, and thus they can welcome wayyyy less students every year so less people to form a network and give the school a good reputation across the world.
Almost as if that's a problem privatizing education can easily fix.
>Anglo universities also tend to hire nobel prices winners as their proffesors, and judge the academical quality of a university by judging the teachers, rather than the students, which is the opposite in France.
I guess that's plausible, but then I have to ask whether that's a problem. Does education not improve if you can hire the cream of the crop to teach with a private purse of money? If French universities were privatized they could draw away talent from Britain and France rather than vice versa (think of Pikkety being drawn to the LSE [as well as his alma mater admittedly]).
Admittedly Britain would be in the same hole as us if it wasn't for Thatcher's hardline stance on the free market.
Not really, either you do it or you pay back, but since firms will recruit straight at the schools, they simply offer to pay back the cost for the students they wish to recruit.
What are we to measure to compare Frances elite education to the education of other countries?
IMO international math olympiad.
They are well regarded by people who know their stuff but unknown amongst the general population.
by the way this Grand Ecole scheme is apparently in violation of the EU rules on the uniformity of university degrees or something like that. Classic french tool to promote their unjustified arrogance
>They do though. The entire point is that nationalized institutions (whether they're universities, manufacturors or indeed your railways) either become wasteful or relatively low quality because they're shielded from all competition or even the need to break even.
>because they're shielded from all competition
But they're not.
>That's but one of many ways to classify the standards of education of an institution. Also, if you want to look at awards, France has been underperforming in terms of Nobel Prizes for decades whereas America and the UK are overperforming.
Lmao. Now add the Fields medals to the equation, since Nobel hated maths. It will look quiiiite different.
This other Dutch fellow is embarrassingly ignorant about everything he is talking about. Don't give him any attention. Jesus Christ, make me embarrassed to be posting under the same flag.
Man, I was almost entirely agreeing with you except for the first part, because I have seen the math courses at Harvard and such and it really is easier that what we do in the top schools here.
Btw we do have some private Grandes Écoles too but they are relatively recent and they get some bad reputation from most students because of "muh elitism" and "muh pay to win degree" but in fact they are increasingly developping and their reputation with employers is quite good, and so is their international reputation. The Prépa/Grande école system and mentality are quite unique to France and can be hard to understand for a foreigner.
Btw I'm not talking about universities, here they're mostly dogshit, atleast for the bachelor part
>But they're not.
Explain how they're not shielded. They're not shielded in the sense that they still appear on ranking lists, but it's not like they constantly need to worry about having enough funding. They don't even need to break even because they're always guaranteed government income. Hell, this is exactly the problem with the French railways right now. Macron is trying to tackle this and it could very well cost him his re-election.
>Now add the Fields medals to the equation
Even if we hypothetically introduce the Fields Medal as a Nobel Prize for mathematics, it means the French excel in one field (two fields actually, considering the French also top literature). That still means they're behind in all other fields. It closes the gap between France on the one hand and Germany, the UK and US on the other, but that doesn't change the fact that there is a gap. All that while, on paper, there's no reason why France should be second to the UK. It's just that the UK opted to go for a more private approach whereas the French went for a more 'social' approach. Which in the end never works out.
>This other Dutch fellow is embarrassingly ignorant about everything he is talking about.
Go ahead and enlighten me then. If I'm that"embarrasingly ignorant", it should be exceedingly easy to point out what I'm ignorant about.
They don't know them, just like you, you don't know foreign universities, except the ones in America in UK.
>hurr durr arrogance
>hurr durr delusion
Could you stop hating for no reason for a moment ? We're trying to have a discussion
>hating for no reason
Why do French always reply just like expected to these topics, go into complete denial mode and then pretend to be the victims?
>Explain how they're not shielded.
Because in the elitist system of the Grandes Ecoles, competition is in terms of which school attracts the best students.
They are in direct competition with private schools on that matter, and are still ways ahead.
>but it's not like they constantly need to worry about having enough funding.
Thank God we don't have to put up with inane shit like bribing students with an ever larger swimming pool and some other nonsense.
Because you're absolutely autistic about it without even seeming to grasp the dual nature of higher education in France.
*blocks your path*
how many niggers do you have in those elite universities?
Probably none, just rich bois and jews.and foreigners maybe?
I don't know, I don't see you contributing in anything, just calling us arrogant of whatever, unlike the other Dutch flag who actually raises some points.
I could ask you to elaborate about why we are "in denial" (because I never said our system was perfect, and I don't think it is) but I don't think you could
>Because in the elitist system of the Grandes Ecoles, competition is in terms of which school attracts the best students.
I guess that's also a form of competition in a way, but it's not exactly a great way to improve their international standing.
>Thank God we don't have to put up with inane shit like bribing students with an ever larger swimming pool and some other nonsense.
I won't deny that's a big downside of doing it the American way. Shit like pools, the campus and handegg teams may overshadow the actual purpose of education. Then there's also shit like these universities trying to become "hip" with womyn's studies (though that's something the government can also easily enforce as part of the curriculum, considering feminism cannot exist without the government supporting it).
Same as in pretty much any other elite institution, I imagine. A few actually intelligent ones (most likely from abroad) who are then touted as 'proof' that diversity works.
Apparently too few for (((them)))
nytimes.com
Because every time I point out that French universities have very little coverage abroad which is because they don't appeal to foreign students, another French poster will come bursting in claiming all of China is begging to be let in to some grand ecole and it's the Jews fault people only know Oxbridge and MIT but not some school in Paris.
First of all, I'll start by saying that I study at Paris Dauphine, and this just as a way to prevent autistic screeching from other French posters -
then, I'll tackle this:
>No selection, free. It's where garbage young people go if they don't want to work.
This shit is absolutely false and ridiculous. Are Paris IV, Paris I, Assas or even the UPMC "gargage"?
For instance, in the humanities, Sorbonne is nothing short of an elite school.
As may you know, if you want to become a teacher you have to pass the Agrégation: in this aspect, the Sorbonne has the best preparatory course in France, just look at the numbers. Also, the greatest part of ENS students do their Master at Paris I and Paris IV - could you please explain why would they go to a "garbage university" for that?
>Another solution though would be to merge several Grandes Écoles into one big structure that would be able to compete with a foreign university
That's literally what Paris Sciences & Lettres is about.
so you need to diversify your schools because not everyone is smart or rich enough? as as I know money isn't a problem but being smart, diversity isn't the solution
The same problem exists in America. The big irony is that the biggest victim of these policies are... Asians! I also believe that it's only a matter of time before American SJW's turn on Asians. The difference is that unlike whitey, Asians don't take shit from anyone.
Look up Roof Koreans.
There are a few niggers at the Sorbonne but they are being admitted due to affirmative action politics, and most of them are too retarded to even know about Grandes Écoles, let alone be able to join them. Thankfully, the Sorbonne (Paris IV) is a right-wing institution and so are their students, so the few niggers studying there are absolutely despised, even if not openly.
Asians get pushed around all day long man what are you talking about. They're also well represented in the SJW crowd and get hyper defensive when being pointed out they are pretty privelidged.
Also in case you don't know Asians hate white people in secret. They have no problem with bringing down white societies.
We do attract foreign students (and yes a lot of Chinese).
And no, it's not because of Jews that our Grandes Écoles aren't well known abroad, it's because they are a remnants from the Napoleonic era, and they are very small, underfounded (because state-owned) and follow a mentality that doesn't match todays standards (ie: having very few students and being overly elitist) so they can't compete with huge ass private anglo-saxon universities. And I don't know what it has to do with arrogance
Here is a list of universities I've heard of internationally:
France: Encole Poly
British: Oxford, Cambridge
???: University of Zurich
Israel: Technion
Japan: Tokyo Uni
China: Beijing Univ
Russia: St. Petersburg
When ppl say X is Harvard of the Y, that's bullshit bc if it was then it would be much more well-known.
Most of the universities in the list above are not that well-known except the British ones when compared to US universities.
Well now you make sense. I'll just have you know this isn't the first time this subject has been up to debate and many French posters there argued rather emotionally.
Besides how does a Grand-Ecole even justify being so elitist while being state owned? As soon as something is state owned over here all the welfare moms should be entitled to use it.
>???: University of Zurich
hmm i wonder which country zurich could be in
>kek, Not good enough for me to care
>Besides how does a Grand-Ecole even justify being so elitist while being state owned?
From what I know, it's mostly because you need to graduate from those schools to get to the top government positions. The government controls both the carrot and the stick.
>Besides how does a Grand-Ecole even justify being so elitist while being state owned?
Not OP, but the answer is rather simple: they select their students by "merit" rather than by social status and money. Actually, that's just a façade: most of the students at the Grandes Écoles are still privileged, bourgeois kids.
It's just your typical French masquerade.
Only reason harvard Oxford and crap is known is due to us political power and media.
first honest french post ITT
Sorbonne
Most people here prefer other countries like Germany, Italy, or Poland (yes, for real, we have large exchange programs with them and Balts I think). Most who go to France are studying law, so its mostly known to be main destination for future jurists and lawyers.
>underfunded (because state-owned)
Universities routinely shit on them because they spend like 10 times more per head than them.
>Besides how does a Grand-Ecole even justify being so elitist while being state owned?
Because it was pretty much the intent behind their creation: training the nation's future leaders by having people compete for a dramatically low amount of places compared to the recruiting pool.
And then you have to spend years studying just to hope to have a chance at the entry exam.
>As soon as something is state owned over here all the welfare moms should be entitled to use it.
That's the case for public universities. Grandes Ecoles follow different rules.
>training nations future leaders
So that means rich bois going to a rich boi uni so they get hired into rich boi posistions or be eligible among other rich bois for the posistion?
>privileged, bourgeois kids
That's because they consistently lowered the bar for high schools to be more "egalitarian" while the entry bar for grandes écoles stayed high as fuck.
It's not a problem with the grandes écoles, it's a problem with earlier education that has gone to shit in such a way that it actively detracts from your chances.
Because it might be free, but you have to pass an exam to enter (more of a "contest" than an exam because there are limited places). And you have to take 2(or 3 years) of this ( en.m.wikipedia.org
In some schools students are even paid to study, like at Polytechnique, which also is a military schools, and once you graduate from Polytechnique, the entirety of French society will suck your dick and you can basically do whatever job you want.
As for why they keep being so elitist, Im guessing it's because of a tradition of excellency directly inherited from the first Empire and well, because people who go there actually love math and science and basically everything I guess (and they are actual geniuses, I have met a few).
Most people could only name the Sorbonne but our university system is completely different. For example in Germany public universities are more selective, more research-oriented and more reputable while specialized schools and institutions of higher education like your 'Grandes Écoles' are less selective and less reputable here. It's like the opposite.
Btw, I'm planning to do an Erasmus semester in France next year and I have the choice between:
ESIEE Paris
CPE Lyon
Université Toulouse III - Paul Sabatie
Which one should I pick? My French is around B2 level.
If rich peopke want to circle jerk their posistions nothing anyone could do either way, no reason for such elaborations for nepotism.
Well I suppose when you want to give off the illusion of "fairness" and a reason to justify your posistion based on merit is one.
>So that means rich bois going to a rich boi uni so they get hired into rich boi posistions or be eligible among other rich bois for the posistion?
Exactly. That's what fails to understand, he's fucking delusional. He claims our Universities are shit when they are actually the only institutions who *select* their students based on their merit and skills rather than on social status.
>That's because they consistently lowered the bar for high schools to be more "egalitarian" while the entry bar for grandes écoles stayed high as fuck.
Yeah, no. Students from poor households don't even consider going to an école préparatoire as an option, they rather go after "rentable" degrees who can land them a job.
Just look at the available data, the Grandes Écoles system is just a machine for social reproduction. You won't find ANY kind from poor strata of society attending the hypokhâgne at the Henri IV or the Louis-le-Grand, let alone making it at the ENS or the HEC. Exceptions exist, but they're negligible and serve just as a way to virtue signal.
What? The subject of the thread was international reputation, not egalitarism or whatever.
Btw Grandes écoles are free so if you are hardworking and good enough at maths and science you can enter one of them, and "poor" people in education also get a lot of money from the state to help them study.
The problem however is a "mentality" problem, poor people are taught to stay poor and vice versa, most poorfags have no idea these schools exists or think they will never be able to join, while some priviledged kids have been studying since their 10's to get Polytechnique...
Except if earlier education did it's job instead of focusing on "everyone's a winner", there's no way an entry competitive exam could be construed as nepotism.
You won't prevent richer people from being able to spend more to prepare an exam which, in a vacuum, is pure meritocracy.
However leftards have consistently lowered the bar in high school education, thereby actively preventing poorer kids from being able to compete.
But compared to Anglo-Saxon universities they are a bit less research heavy because a lot of science happens at independent institutes and foundations, like Max Planck Institute or Fraunhofer Institute that are not tied to any university.
These systematic differences make it hard to compare schools internationally with these rankings.
You honestly believe all these executives were hard studiers who got their posistion from their exceptional 1st percentile academic abilities?
Or they just paid off education staff and got their sons in the schools.
I'd just like to add this: courses at the Sorbonne are on par if not better than those of, for instance, the ENS.
They don't have any actual "selection" at the entry, but the dropout rate from the L1 (first Bachelor year) to the L2 (second year) is ABYSMAL, which means that only the few actually skilled and motivated ones make it through. Draw your own conclusions.
Also, all Master programs are now selective since 2017, taking into account your grades and your research program.
notre dame
I go to college in the US and honestly no one knows a single French Unis' name or even any European Uni for that matter apart from British ones. Same is the case for people in India
Depends. If they studied at science po or similar stuff, they are the spoiled child you describe.
If they studied at Polytechnique and/or joined the Corps des Mines, they are hardworking and academic geniuses.
>Or they just paid off education staff and got their sons in the schools.
Considering the way the exams work, that's pretty fucking unlikely.
And I have to add that the reason we don't have Prepa courses is because the selection happens way earlier even in high school. For example only about 40% of all German receive the Abitur (the German university allowance) each year, compared to the French bac, which is passed by around 90% of all students.
What about Asian schools like Singapore?
>that Macaron little fellow is the classic privileged rich boi from Grand Shitcole
>right now he's getting BTFO hard by based prole Salvini who doesn't even have a bachelor
the absolute state of french cucks
Nothing money can't fix, universities and professors work for money and these students families own the world.
Interesding, I think it's better that way desu, here we tend to disregard manual labors and stuff so we have a "everyone must have a chance to pursue higher education" policy so we hand the bac over to everyone and it's bullshit imo