Who can take credit for the early Arab Caliphates? Iraqis and Syrians? Who are the heirs of the Umayyads and Abbasids?

Byzantines teaching them.

wow
why?

Umayyads were Syrians and vassals.

>emirate of Córdoba also Andalus to Maghreb
The Maghreb were Berber speakers who were conquered same time Spain was.

Yeah basically all (sunni) MENA, even the areas they didn't control, considered them to be the caliphate and prayed in the name of the caliphe.

But dont forget the rest of the islamic world, Mughal India, Southern East Asia etc. they lived in a different paradigm.

well if we look at it properly mohammed literally appointed ali as his heir and everyone knew it lol
sunnite religion as a whole is one big self-delusion so legitimacy of a particular hsitoric event is not that of a big deal, since we are talking about a religion that is quite used to making up stories like that and to religious heterodoxy

Egypt didn’t speak Arabic in this time

Where you from? Albanian or Muslim Bosnian?

Maghreb was Shia as was Fatimids

im a christian

Sure you are, say that Mohammad is a false prophet if you are Christian

which languages were spoken in syria, lebanon and iraq before the arabian conquest?

if i were a muslim i would have written those four letters next to mohammeds name, wouldn't i, wise guy?

Repeat it

Aramaic probably

*kill Ali's family*

The Ummayyad were really savages compared the the rashidun, the abbaqid revolution was great.
Most modern and ancieng sunnis scholars doesn't approve what happend in those troubled times tho.

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Who is authority in Islam and who decides what.

There were many arabs in syria/iraq before the islamic conquest. Arabs didn't wait for islam to reach it.

repeat what

i simply get my impression from actions of abu bakr and his followers and then ages of religious prosecution, it is really hard to make it into anything other but a powergrab and it all has its legal and theological consequence

What would an Arab pagan be doing in Syria occupied by greeks?

shia are like catholics and sunni are like protestants

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syriac_language

Do different sunni mosques have contradictory beliefs ?

Ibadi are protestants, shia are orthodox and sunnis are catholics

What is the same in “Sunnis” and when this or is it united sect begin?

After Muhammad died, his instructions were a bit unclear on his succession, and yeah just few days after his deaths it all went to shit, many power hungry people... They were flawed humans after all
An embarassing moment in islamic history.

But the modern and medieval shia-sunni conflicts were just hidden ethnic conflicts between persians, arabs, berbers and turks.

books.openedition.org/ifpo/6507

most of people were nestorian christians and spoke syriac which was lingua franca

islam has more internal difference than christianity, its more normal to them then we are used to
they have 4 main sunni madhabs (sort of different interpretations and schools of islam), 2 main shia madhabs and other lesser ones, then you have sufi orders which are very different within themselves, then you have a lot of more or less orthodox islamic cults
you can have a lot of different interpretations

Why do Moroccan Muslims call themselves Sunni and what do they mean religiously by that and what do Iraq Muslims mean when they say they are sunni

>For the emirate of Cordoba/al andalus it more of the maghreb,
LMAO

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>Who can take credit for the early Arab Caliphates? Iraqis and Syrians? Who are the heirs of the Umayyads and Abbasids?
The people who actually ran the caliphate and had centuries of experience administrating large sprawling empires, the conquered Persians.

The emriate of Cordoba was at 99% established by the actions of maghrebian tribes
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abd_al-Rahman_I

The only thing middle eastern arabs did was to expell and try to kill the creator of the emirate. (who was half maghrebi and had the support of his tribe that supportes him take al andalus)
Also Tariq ibn Ziad etc.

totally wrong, i didnt say that comparison for no reason
sunni are the more decentralized, protestant like group, they arose when some muslims opposed the ali ibn abi talib as mohammed's heir - they were became dominant power, it was officially about sunni wanting to appoint foreigners as leaders of muslim community while shia said that it could only be mohammed's relatives, but really it was about power
shia have a strict central leadership
besides religious structure even if you look at comments and insults at each other you will notice similarities between protestant treatment of catholics and sunni treatment of shia
ibadi are a weird group, you need to go deep into islamic history to understand them

Persians became relevant only with the Abbasid, where they contributed quit a lot to the administration, structure, culture and economy of the empire. Ummayad were racists af.

Then again those persians are mostly unrelated to modern persian-speaking iranian.

>ethnic conflicts between persians, arabs, berbers and turks.
source?

No one.

Wewuzery is a cancer.

in christianity our early history was more or less as pristine as it gets since after all you cant do much with being a bunch of poor people and slaves
and mainline calcedonian church was quite succesful with weeding out heresy

>But the modern and medieval shia-sunni conflicts were just hidden ethnic conflicts between persians, arabs, berbers and turks.
im trying to paint myself the position of arab shia in places like iraq
its like english catholics in ireland

How are they unrelated to modern persians?

Persians did influence the Abbasids but people tend to overstate it.

And byzantines

Early Umayyad coinage were the same as byzantines, they took over Byzantine administration and basically copied everything

Safavid turks fucked up the middle east, they needed to make iran special to justify their power compared to the sunni turk ottoman.

Fatimid started with anti-arab hatred from berbers too.

mongols killed 90% of the population of many places in Iran.

This is a pretty good thread.

Let’s say you are in North Africa how do you travel to Spain

>mongols killed 90% of the population of many places in Iran.
Based on that alone, you cannot make the conclusion that current Iranians are not related to the Iranian vizers.

>Safavid turks
are you sure we can call them turks?

>they needed to make iran special to justify their power compared to the sunni turk ottoman
>Fatimid started with anti-arab hatred from berbers too
they represented iranian and berber interests as opposed to arab and turkish interests
i can see why most of the muslim world views them negatively, but european view is more positive of them, since after all the connection europe has with them and arabs and turks are our mortal enemies
safavids even cooperated with european powers

Academic work insists in the turk aspect, because both ottoman and safavid were "turks" so Ismail Shah needed something to differienciate the two empires, otherwise the ottoman would have conquered Iran eventually. He converted Iran to consolidate his power.
I know that the safavid had byzantian, kurdish, caucasian origins too.

From wikipedia

One of the main reasons why Ismail and his followers pursued such a severe conversion policy was to give Iran and the Safavid lands as distinct and unique an identity as was possible compared to its two neighboring Sunni Turkic military and political enemies, its main enemy and arch rival the Ottoman Empire and, for a time, the Central Asian Uzbeks — to the west and north-east respectively.[11][12][13]
The Safavids were engaged in a lengthy struggle with the Ottomans — including numerous wars between the two dynasties — and this struggle continuously motivated the Safavids to create a more cohesive Iranian identity to counter the Ottoman threat and possibility of a fifth-column within Iran among its Sunni subjects.[14]
The conversion was part of the process of building a territory that would be loyal to the state and its institutions, thus enabling the state and its institutions to propagate their rule throughout the whole territory.[15]

That doesn't mean that modern day Iranians aren't related to medieval Iranians. And like I said before their influence was overstated. The administrators/bureaucrats were Arab and Persian while the warriors were Turks

>so Ismail Shah needed something to differienciate the two empires, otherwise the ottoman would have conquered Iran eventually
im pretty sure qizilbashi never even saw a quran before they marched into iran
sunni religion never fit into their way of life

How do you travel from North Africa to Spain?
You are in the strait of Gibraltar, what steps do you take in that do not involve modern technology.

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Most Sunnis never saw a Quran either neither most clergy before printing press there was little production of papers or books.

A paper would be written once and that’s it no mass production

shah ismail was a kurdish tribal leader, warrior mystic
brushing his legacy off as simply being turkish and wanting to create a separate identity from ottomans seems ridiculous, especially since the idea of "turks" didn't really exist before modern era

point was that safaviya and qizilbashi were heterodox tribal mountain people with very colourful culture and beliefs
mainstream sunni islam never fit into their life

I can swim 15km

Nigga bullshit.

A lot of random people swim between france and uk, and it's 30 km distance minimum.

Swimming 15km is easy for a normal adult.

No you can’t. And I would love to see you try.

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People swim it with support boats and breaks

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Casablanca – A 51-year-old Moroccan entrepreneur swam accros the Strait of Gibraltar without swimming outfit.

At a speed of 4.2km per hour, the Moroccan entrepreneur Dino Sebti crossed the 18-Kilometer-long Straight of Gibraltar in 4 hours and 22 minutes on September 9th.
moroccoworldnews.com/2016/09/196469/moroccan-swims-across-strait-gibraltar/

hundred of people swimmed 30 km
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_successful_English_Channel_swimmer
including this guy who lost his arms + his legs en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippe_Croizon

15km is very easy in comparaison.

yeah obviously but boats aren't modern technology, they existed before civilisation was invented

Al-Andalus was majority converted, according to them most of its inhabitants were locals converted to Islam (muwalladun or muslima), but another thing altogether is the early ruling elite and the Umayyad army. Pretending that Al-Andalus was Berber because Tariq lead the Umayyad attack is absurd, the Berbers themselves were a formerly conquered and converted people by the Arabs, but suddenly the native Iberians can't be converted, they all magically disappeared and everywhere in Al-Andalus everyone was a Berber or an Arab,... wrong, the native Iberian substrate survived just as much as the Berber.

You mention Abd-Al-Rahman I, if I recall correctly he was part Berber part Arab, but his descendant Abd-Al-Rahman III was already more Spanish by blood than anything else. So?

You Berbers and Arabs have the idea that you just lived here and this was your place, and everyone was an Arab/Berber, but the truth is that you were just soldiers of a massive inter-continental Empire, and you forget that you were a minority (not only that but most Berbers were lately persecuted and expelled during the Ibadi revolts by the other muslims), it's like pretending that Japan is inhabited by Americans because they have military bases all around the place. In Spain entire massive regions like Aragon were ruled by converts like the Banu Qasi family since the early conquest, and some of the most famous mathematicians, poets, medics, etc. of Al-Andalus had native roots, yet you want to take credit for it, lmao.

You know why Al-Andalus brighted more than North Africa? Because prior to the muslim invasion there was already culture there, because we were giving to the world people like Isidore of Seville, it just changed hands, the same happened in Damascus, Baghdad or in Persia, all conquered and converted places, it's the local substrate what made them succseful and gave the "Islamic Golden Age", it wasn't murderous foreigners who came with a sword the ones who did it.

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Swimming 30km or 15km unassisted ir even on a row boat is suicidal due to waves and currents on ocean.

>yes they literally are - abbasid caliph surrendered the title to selim I
>Be Araboid Caliph, descended from Bedouin herders who invented a religion to justify Arab supremacy
>Literally have to surrender your title to some half-Slav Turk descended from Eastern horse people because his horse people eclipsed your camel people as rulers of the camel person faith.

They as I said unassisted you can not cross it by swimming and by boat it is difficult and requires knowledge of ships and naval tech to not get sent by currents to the Atlantic.

>enter strait on a row boat
>you row and row and you are sent straight to the Atlantic.

>Who can take credit for the early Arab Caliphates?
Literally all Muslims
>Who are the heirs of the Umayyads and Abbasids?
Nobody, the last semi-legit caliphs were Ottomans

Strait of gibraltar is an ocean not a pool or lake.

Rest In Peace

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What about ISIS?

You're off topic, I was just speaking about who established the emirate of cordoba, not how it evolved.
And I'm sorry but the event that to rhe establishment of that emirate were Tariq Ibn Ziad + The berber revolt + the life events of abd er rahman. So 99% of the origin of that emirate was the result of berber tribes.

I perfectly know that 99% of muslims were converted iberians, that there was berely any north african in the 10 millions of people in alandalus, that the caliph, ummayad, almohad or almoravid mixed very quickly with iberian womens etc.

You creates 10 starwmans yourself. Al Andalus was a mistake and a cancer of noeth africa from 712 to 1800 with all its consequences. They should have killed Abd el Rahman or Tariq Ibn Ziad and let you with your wizigoth affairs.

Water flows east to west

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Also no need to be revisonnist, al andalus oe not, the Maghreb under the idrissid, aghlabid, zirid, fatimid, almohad, almoravid, rustamid, hammadid etc. was doing quit well in most aspects (economy, science, culture, architecture etc.).

It was really a mistake to connect a Barbarian kingdom like the wizigoth to the medieval islamic world, it back fired badly

Good, death to al Andalus and all remnants and strataments of Muslim rule in Spain.

Well it is already dead, death to its memory and its revisionists

Andalusia was no paradise with no public library and public safety etc.. it was a standard of its sorroundings in feudalism and massive inequalities and impoverishment

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Read this actual book and not what some Sephardic teachers wrote without sources.

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>Al-Andalus had native roots, yet you want to take credit for it, lmao.
How is that different from Spain taking credit for the colonization of the Americas when it was mostly done by their native allies, native royalty, mixed settlers, African slaves, etc.

Educate yourself

audible.com/pd/The-Myth-of-the-Andalusian-Paradise-Audiobook/B01HMRMIBM?source_code=GO1GB908MSH060513&gclid=EAIaIQobChMItK29hv3F3QIVicDICh2OeQuLEAAYASAAEgKZPfD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

Meme, product of Israel and/or the CIA

Not everyone is a fat Amerilards that can't stand up without wheezing.
Swimming the Gibraltar Straight isn't easy, but for an experienced swimmer is easily doable. People do it almost every day.

The head of the CIA probably takes his/her true orders from Rothschild t b h.

Hahahshahajajahahahahahahaha

Bedouins and Khalid Walid. After the initial raping of Rome the provinces of Syria, North Africa and Egypt were basically a walk in the park for conquering

Me.
Nobody else.

Who is seen as the best muslim general?

Bumping for an answer to this.

Khalid ibn al Waleed.

What about Timur?

He was great. But Khalid never lost a battle, he's the GOAT,

Sounds fake probably is

>Never losing a battle
So? Quality of wins > quantity of wins