BELGIUM BUYS F-35 JETS

you have to go back

>post yfw the F-35 was intentionally made to look bad so China/Russia would make a plane only good enough to compete what they think is a defective plane.

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Is Belgium even big enough to fit a runway

Imagine how many problems the Chinese are having with theirs that we don't know yet.

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hm how many can they afford?
3-5?

34 at the latest count.

They fear the LVXEMOVRGER BVLL will reclaim their rightful clay.

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Anti-air gun shot down a aircraft
truly a shocker

Nobody claims F-35s are invincible.

They're not made to look bad, and fifth gen fighters are objectively the best of the best currentlly. Accidents, malfunctions, etc. happen with every new type of airplane, it just happens that information is spread more commonly in the modern era. So you hear more about it.

Why didn't they receive back their german territories after WW2?

We need an EU-made aircraft with 0% foreign parts. Hence the SCAF.
Since the Tornado, Typhoon and A400M programs didn't go all that well, last I heard the current plan is to have Dassault build a successor to the Rafale and possibly associating Germany with some of the manufacturing, provided it can safely be done.

The Brits have announced an European fighter program of their own (called "Tempest") along with Italy (Leonardo) and Sweden (SAAB). Reportedly, Japan and Turkey are interested.
It's possible the two programs will be merged into one at a later date.

Congrats. It's funny our politicians ranted about the cost of these for so many years and then in one refugee summer they ruin our nation forever and take on a financial burden 100x this without flinching.

Nothing has been announced yet, unless I'm mistaken?
Dassault pulled out of the tender a long time ago because of unfair practices, but the French government still was in direct negotiations with the Belgian government for Rafales.
If the problem was, only the F-35 can deliver US tacnukes, then I'm sure we can sell French nuclear bombs to Belgium.
Rafale works (unlike the F-35) and you know in advance how much you're going to pay.
Belgium can also join the Franco-German SCAF program.

Problem is, Rafale only comes with French-made munitions and to make it to be able to fire American or from the client's cunt, they charge a lot more.

>F-35 can deliver US tacnukes
Really?

Then again, I thought most aircraft could?

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i mean yeah they're really small nowadays

WTF why does belgium need so many fucking fighter jets

you're right..
mental that something this small could destroy an entire city

>Really?

Well, with F-35 you never really know - it's not even sure it can fly safely, hahaha. Recently, they all were grounded following the unexplained crash of an US F-35.
But the Belgians wanted a plane capable of delivering the about ten B61 bombs lent by the US (not usable without US codes).
And the US made sure only the F-35 would fit these requirements.
However, Rafale can deliver French-made ASMP-A nuclear cruise missiles (pic), and it's not out of the question France could provide Belgium (a close ally and NATO member) with those.

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dude they don't drink the coolaid, yeah sure nukes are destructive but not that destructive, even the biggest ones don't destroy entire cities.

>successfully invaded in both world wars
HMMMMM I wonder...

Dassault always had an "the customer is always right" approach to business, and it's possible to have their planes modifier to use homemade weapons or have customized weapons built in France.
Pic is a "Black Shaheen" missile, a variant of the SCALP missile, specially made for the UAE.

>they charge a lot more
Wait till the actual cost of ownership for the F-35 are known, then we'll speak again ^^
Rafale and most of its weapons have been operational for years and battle tested (ask Gaddaffi, ISIS and Bachar...) - and you know in advance how much it will cost.

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If they didn’t succeed at making a deal it would have been the airforce’s fault not the government. They did some really stupid things that made them lose credibility.

Are they back flying yet? What bug was it that grounded them last week?

The only reason F-35's are selling are because of political pressure. Doesn't change the fact that Dassault is possible the most expensive 4++ gen around. For that price is easier going for the F-35.

It's not a bug it's a feature!
F-35 is like Windows. It needs marketing to make you think it works.

Belgium can also join the SCAF Franco-German program, and actually has expressed interest (Spain, too).
Part of the plane can even be built in Belgium, provided everything is worked out beforehand to avoid the delays of some previous multinational planes.

>For that price is easier going for the F-35.
Nobody knows yet how much owning a F-35 (purchase+maintenance) will cost. Or even if they will really fly safely (let alone conduct combat operations)...

Being honest these projects will take at least a decade just to have a prototype, since it's all new tech. Burgers been on that shit since the 90's and they still can't get it completely right.

this
European weapons are good too, but they simply can't keep up with the US, they're always behind
Simply due to the number of weapons ordered, US companies order much more, therefore the price goes down, there are more spare parts, they set the standards etc etc
If we want to continue producing our own (good!) weapons, that's where the EU would really make sense: not even necessarily a joint EU army, but joint European weapons projects: every EU country participates in one program per weapon system, the number of orders massively goes up and the price goes down
Problem here would be that the nation states would lose some of their domestic independence regarding defense capability, but I think it's a price worth paying, I don't see a European war between EU members coming

belgium are in bed with us and luxemburg, benelux POWERRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

Yeah, have fun with overpriced useless stuff with some components made in China while undercutting your own industry.
Meanwhile, we'll stick to building European planes with Germany, UK, Italy and Sweden.

Thing is, these said US companies will do everything to not allow that. They don't wanna lose their biggest clients.

when Pax Americana ends, Europeans will need to dust-off their old colonial playbooks if they want any sort of global trade.

thanks

>Simply due to the number of weapons ordered, US companies order much more
Precisely. Which is why EU countries buying from outside the EU is very bad. Not just for the common economy, but more importantly because it endangers the future of the European defense industry.
These days, when you buy foreign weapons, you're entirely dependant on the manufacturer to use them (parts, codes, ammo).
You can't defend yourself against them or anybody they won't allow you to fight.

>Problem here would be that the nation states would lose some of their domestic independence regarding defense capability, but I think it's a price worth paying, I don't see a European war between EU members coming
We don't really have a choice. It's either being dependant on other EU countries or being dependant from the outside, which is worse.

>when Pax Americana ends
It ended a few months ago when Trump killed NATO in his speeches and tweets, if not officially yet

Which is why some defense projects which were dormant or slowly proceeding have been kicked into high gear, and new ones initiated.

>Belgium can also join the SCAF Franco-German program
No your government blackmailed the Belgians that they wouldn't be able to join if they didn't choose the Rafale. Which is even more retarded knowing the French didn't even hand in a proper bid for the Belgians to evaluate

>Nobody knows yet how much owning a F-35 (purchase+maintenance) will cost
Purchase costs are known for quite some time and dropping which each new lot. Same with maintenance costs. Follow-on modernization has been calculated into the purchase costs and will be mostly funded by the Americans anyway

>Or even if they will really fly safely (let alone conduct combat operations)...
They already did combat operations and 300+ F-35s have been flying around since 2006, with only 1 airframe being written off after a crash (just recently) and zero deaths. This is an amazing safety record that no other fighter has ever accomplished

Is that why France never puts out EU public procurement procedures for anything? Barely ever buys from other European countries, even when they offer a superior product?
France is literally the last European country that should talk about a ""united"" European defense industry because you guys are by far the most protectionist of all European countries

tfw we dun goofed our relations with russia so bad they dont want to sell us their military tech

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>every EU country participates in one program per weapon system, the number of orders massively goes up and the price goes down

Hence the SCAF program (Dassault plane ordered by Germany, and hopefully others, provided it meet their requirements) and the "Franco-German" tank which will largely be German but which France will buy.

Weapons are good export money, too, there are customers all over the world. So it's good for the pocketbook of EU countries not just their independence.

>Which is even more retarded knowing the French didn't even hand in a proper bid for the Belgians to evaluate
Dassault withdrew from the formal tender since it was biased from the start. But the two governments are in talks. Or were, if OP's information is confirmed (so far, the Belgian government has denied those claims today).

>Same with maintenance costs
They may have to replace some parts of the existing planes. They started production before adequate testing had taken place.

>Barely ever buys from other European countries
We buy German assault rifles as our standard...
And participated in quite a few multinational projects.

Military planes built with Germany: Alphajet, Atlantique, Transall
With the UK: Jaguar
With several countries: A400M, Tigre
We only pulled out of the Eurofighter deal because we needed a carrier-based fighter (well, we do have carriers...) and it was thought Rafale would be a better plane.

based French weapon systems

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Nothing new under the sun, Belgium had the F-35 selected for years. They just tired to make it look like they had an open competition.

A river marks the border between us so it would be counter-productive to just disregard natural borders like that plus, there is literally nothing there

Pls buy more Argentina

It has been the only plane in the official "competition", yes.
But there were still talks about the Rafale. And/or the future plane.

G-good for them ahah.
F-16s and Mirages will do fine e-heh.

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RIP f-16 :(

I wish they did but the truth is our government simply does not care about our military, no one has cared in a long, long time.

There was/is no realistic chance the Rafale will/would win.

So, when you buying? They signed the papers 'n shit.

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Here's the entire RfGP: vandeput.fgov.be/sites/default/files/articles/Request for Government Proposal_0.pdf
Please tell me what part of it is "biased". French gov simply thought they could skip the official tender and directly put pressure on Walloon politicians to buy French. This failed and actually backfired when it became known this was nothing more than a simple blackmail which would exclude Belgium from future European defense projects.

>They may have to replace some parts of the existing planes
That's the entire idea of F-35s follow-on modernization and incremental updates. Nothing to do with testing, but continuously upgrading the fighter with the latest technology.

All those projects you mentioned had a huge French input, and it's still a very small number if you compare it to smaller countries like Belgium, where like 90% of all the weapon platforms are sourced abroad already. So that's why any Frenchman saying Belgium should buy European is a fucking hypocrite since a) France is the most protectionist country in Europe b) Belgium has every right to procure a weapon platform that is more suited for their needs and includes more Belgian industrial participation.

There was, if they just put in a bid in the official way and lured Belgium with proper industrial participation and investment prospects for the Rafale and the future FCAS (and NOT blackmail them out of this project if they don't select the Rafale) and bilateral defense agreements.

based

Whenever they feel like it I guess

>lured Belgium with proper industrial participation and investment prospects for the Rafale and the future FCAS

We've signed these kinds of deal even with non-EU countries (like Australia, for the submarines, recently) so of course we're open to that.
And last I heard, Belgium (and Spain) still were potentially in SCAF.

But this is about more than just money, more importantly it's about retaining the capability to build a modern plane in the EU. The development costs grow dramatically with each generation, the US have their own, huge market and "buy American act".
The EU countries need to stop the "buy American act" themselves, no matter the amount of political pressure.
If we don't, soon we won't be able to produce our own planes (and capital ships, possibly). Then, any major power will be able to cut us off from raw materials and export markets. Then Europe will vegetate as a tourist spot with a mostly agrarian economy.

>incremental updates
It's not an "afterthought patching", it's an "incremental update"!
The plane isn't "grounded for safety concerns", it's "undergoing advanced durability enhancements"!
The costs aren't "spiralling out of control", they're "periodically being dynamically readjusted"!
Those aren't "delays in the procurement chain", these are "optimized delivery procedures"!

amirite?
I wish we had the gall to be like American businessmen...

We are buying 64 new jets. Now we have yank jets, but i have the feeling that the new ones will be gripens and deeper lover relationship with sweden established

F-16 will surely remain in service atleast til 2040

god i hope not

Yeah, "buy European!"
You can get about three JAS 39 for the cost of a single F-35, too.

lol no fucking shit some ancient plane is gonna cost less, might as well buy some F16's if that's what we want

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I'm sure most European countries would prefer to buy European. But frankly Europe can't defend themselves without the Americans, so unless European governments start to drastically improve our military capabilities, the US will always be seen as a more credible partner for countries that don't have a big defense industry or military in general

Not denying the JSF program wasn't a shitshow, but that's the nature of the beast. All large defense procurement are shit, including European ones like the NH90, A400M, NFR-90, Eurofighter/Rafale.
Most of your comments are memes though. The grounding was literally 1 day, costs are getting lower to the point the F-35A is similarly priced or even cheaper than its competitors and the incremental updates is literally one of the biggest selling points. The F-35 is already more advanced than its competitors, and this ensures it will remain that way in the next 40 years.

It's funny how the F-35 is critiqued for the way the development was run instead of the actual plane. Also, for some reason, people love to hate on it but can't tell a single reason why any of its competitors would be a better buy when it comes to actual real world capabilities.

Are you saying the Gripen is €25m a piece?

They have been updated a lot since then. So that doesn't really say anything.

>But frankly Europe can't defend themselves without the Americans
Yes we can. Could. And we may need to defend ourselves AGAINST the Americans. Whom we outnumber and outproduce, actually. And the situation would be even better if we didn't support their defense industry at the expense of ours.

>unless European governments start to drastically improve our military capabilities
Trump is clamouring for raises in the defense budgets, so everyone is going to spend at least 2% no matter what. So the question is, whether it will be spent on European or US weapons. The answer should be obvious.

>the US will always be seen as a more credible partner
never heard of the Suez crisis I see.

>All large defense procurement are shit
Rafale wasn't. And for the next one, steps are taken, precisely to ensure that it will go like Rafale and not A400M.

>actual plane
the "actual" plane, which typically is well behind in delivery dates, is critiqued by the US units who have it. I'd say "fly" it, but... read what this squadron based in Japan has to say.

>Are you saying the Gripen is €25m a piece?
It was offered under €30 million, yes. Brazil I think? plus I was talking total cost of ownership, not just purchase - it's what matters.

>And the situation would be even better if we didn't support their defense industry at the expense of ours.
Then the French should lead by example and not just support their own industry

>read what this squadron based in Japan has to say.
Oh please tell me

>It was offered under €30 million, yes. Brazil I think?
It was 4.7 billion dollar for 36 Gripens, so $130m a piece

Only Dassault has experience with stealthy planes thanks to the nEUROn.
Would be nice if we were the first to have an aircraft without vertical wings.

> main threat is Russian hackers
> buy a flying computer
are you even trying anymore

Oh fuck off. Try working with old Russian planes.

>Then the French should lead by example and not just support their own industry
We don't do that. I mentioned actual facts, read up on them. We buy our fuckin assault rifles which we could easily manufacture ourselves.

>Oh please tell me
Look it up, you'll just deny it if I post something.

yeah and the f16 has been updated a lot since then

Europe needs to defend itself against the arab countries, Israel and the US. Buying US-military equipment is thus counterproductive.

Why do you people know so much about planes

>Buying US-military equipment is thus counterproductive.

This. Economic AND strategic reasons.

>>Please tell me what part of it is "biased
>want a aircraft able to carry US nuclear bombs
>only the US is allowed to say which aircraft *can*, regardless of the actual technical feasability
>Rafale isn't allowed and the US have no reason to change that
>End of story

it's pretty much the only branch we have left
we don't even have tanks anymore

Lol fuck off

you could do what the dutch did and regain tank capabilities by integrating part of your troops in our military.

Germano-Belgian brigade for the Flemish
Franco-Belgian brigade for the Walloons
Along with the existing Franco-German brigade.