>Indonesia >There are over 300 ethnic groups in Indonesia including Javanese, Sundanese, and Batak. >While religious freedom is stipulated in the constitution, the government officially recognises only six religions: Islam, Protestantism, Roman Catholicism, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Confucianism >Regional languages Over 700 languages >One state, one nation as "Indonesian" ,derived from "commonness" which came from the region's experience of Dutch rule.
Why on earth cannot EU, whose condition looks similar to Indonesia, unify themselves into one "nation"-"Supernational-nation"-people not based on certain ethnicities and regional commonness but on the whole commonness as Europe? pic isn't poland.
でも午前3時なんかに投稿してるお前も怠け者じゃねーかpgr but you who post even at 3 a.m. are also a lazyman, you motherfucker
Levi Young
>people not based on certain ethnicities and regional commonness >people not based on certain ethnicities nor regional commonness I revised it myself sorry
Jonathan Sullivan
did you know that Ache is so fundamentalistic they flog every single pédé ?
Ethan Scott
who cares all I'd like you guys to discuss is about the "unificational" analogy between EU and indonesia.
Robert White
Because European nationalism isn't a thing? You need to have a common history (or common enemy) to be able to unite such diverse ethnics, and merely being on the same continent doesn't substitute as one. Besides, there's no reason for them to be united as a single nation.
Chase Nguyen
Well, EU is already united as USA colony, they should became independent to be like Indonesia.
Evan Harris
> You need to have a common history (or common enemy) to be able to unite such diverse ethnics, there is no need to emphasize the commonness and shared dynamics of European history...history of Britain, France, Germany, Italy, Poland, Greece, Spain...they are connected so deeply that one may call it a history of Europe. >there's no reason for them to be united as a single nation. f, for EU's ideal? through this argument, then we may doubt the legitimacy of Indonesian unification-except for the aspect of common enemy-mainly Dutch, by any chance, Japanese-. For EU, theoretically this is the fear of revival of great wars, and realistically, that of Russian invasion and losing Europe's hegemony as one of the leaders of the world.
Oliver Powell
i find it a bit difficult to compare the case of Indonesia to that of the eu, for the former one was basically an integration (or semi-focible binding) of a variety of ethnicities, religions and linguistic groups while the latter one was an integration of each so-called nation state. you can name some kingdoms like the Kingdom of Srivijaya, the Kingdom of Banten, Former/Latter Matalam and the Kingdom of Ache, but neither of which function as symbolic device to legitimate what we call Indonesia today. it's not like those kingdoms were precursors of today's Indonesia you know.
well i don't really get the main topic so what i answered might be off the point.
Easton Hernandez
>a history of Europe. Perhaps, but they identify more as their ethnic or nation more than as European.This won't work when everyone has massive ego that prioritize their ethnic rather than the unity of the European nation. Eventually you'll get separatist movement here and there like in Russia or Yugoslav.
>for EU's ideal? What ideal precisely? We are unified because we realize that we need this unity to develop in post war era. Europe is equally developed nations and better off as it is rather than a centralized state in which Germany (Java in our case) runs everything.
Oliver Morales
You have no idea how Indonesia was formed or works.
>while the latter one was an integration of each so-called nation state nation is, after all, "imagined community"...where the components find out certain commonness and make it into their sense of belonging, and the notion needn't necessarily be based on "ethnicity"...like Indonesian first of all our nationalism is also the example...the mixture of Joumon, Yayoi, okinawanese and so on, and before we come to know it we confused the mixture with the ethnic singleness...the one and only 日本人. I'd like to propose the possibility of "Super-national nation"...nation composed of nations . Nationstates' nation can be integrated to one "higher" nation...like diverse ethnicities done to one nation. >This won't work when everyone has massive ego that prioritize their ethnic rather than the unity of the European nation. Eventually you'll get separatist movement here and there like in Russia or Yugoslav. This can't be helped, however if the notion of "single European nation" can pass, what'll become of it?
Jose Hughes
Hometown in Jogja, living in Jakarta right now.
I can't imagine anything but totalitarian state if it's going to be a real state. No chance for federal European state, nobody wants people leisurely crossing borders.
Eli Bailey
yeah it's not like I'm arguing against so-called 想像の共同体. >supranationalism nice
It isn't necessary to make the proposed notion a real state. My proposal is just for maintaining the EU, supernational institution. >nobody wants people leisurely crossing borders. >border does that stand for that between inside and outside EU, or inside Schengen Area? >超国家主義 nah, the noun can be interpreted just as a cooperation among nations, which is not my point. my proposal is the fusion of nations into one nation, and as for the slogan of the EU, "In varietate concordia", Indonesia is, I think, a good example...regarding the possibility of any ethnic groups in Indonesia evoking its own "nation-ism" based on their own commonness, called separatism.
Adrian Johnson
ah so you are claiming the disintegration of each European nation and re-integration of them, then i got you wrong
Josiah Lee
Nope, I'm in East Jakarta.
>just for maintaining the EU Then why do you have to compare it to Indonesia?
>does that stand for that between inside and outside EU, or inside Schengen Area? I meant that when people can choose to settle wherever they want in EU, it'll bring new problems in the demographic since Europe is more diverse than US.
Luis Bell
>East Jakarta. ah, I've never been there then :c
Bentley Barnes
>disintegration of each European nation and re-integration of them well, maybe my opinion is so. However, it is needed to make moderate shift...just breaking up what exists and forcefully integrating the fragments into one is very difficult and must evoke people's huge and immense opposition. Super-national nation is a means to work out this problem typical of transitional periods...by resting one "higher" nation on several "lower" nations, in the same way as one "higher" nation based on several "lower" ethnicities, until the notion of the one and only "European" is secured, we can evade the problems, at least invent the excuses. As I said above, the structure of the indonesian nation is similar to what I imagine, so I quoted your country. >when people can choose to settle wherever they want in EU, it'll bring new problems in the demographic since Europe is more diverse than US. well...yeah that's a problem when making an European nation. It is needed to determine where the ends of Europe exist. My idea is; the west end is of course Portugal, the north end is Norway or Finland, the east end is Ukraine(at least the west of it), the south end is Turkey. If the EU extends its realm beyond this line, then I abandon my idea.
Evan Johnson
You should visit the Indonesia Miniature Park if you want to learn about this country.
Jordan Williams
>the structure of the indonesian nation is similar to what I imagine You cannot compare the structure of a supranational union with a centralized developing nation. Post independence Indonesia has different state of development, other islands cannot progress since bulk of our industrial capacity is in Java, in turn Java cannot survive without raw resources from other islands. Europe on the other hand is a continent full of powerful independent countries with histories of rivalries and bloody wars. You'd drawn better parallel with US rather than Indonesia.
Jacob Young
ahh so you are basically arguing about molding several national identities into the sole one(awareness as an European) so they can overcome lots of challenges unitedly... nice idea, but it may be possible in the long run, someday... give it a time... anyways i'm gonna hit the sack... i know a bit more about Indonesia than the average Japanese... i want to meet my bf in Jakarta again... he's my alter ego basically... nighty teman saya
>division of labor in a certain region the system is also true of Europe, while the network is denser, more complicated, and more mutually related. Sure you may well say that European strength is derived from their mutual independence, struggle against each other, and development through competition. I admit it and you may well too conclude that Europe must be better off when separated. Well, however, in this multipolarized period when big states with immense population, relatively larger land, plenty of resources, developed technology such as US, China, Russia, Japan, (potentially) Indonesia, India could gain larger hegemony than ever, how could tiny little european states with a bit heritage survive this crisis without unity? well, I don't ask them to have an united state, but just to have a moderate unity(that is, "don't abandon the EU"), and my proposition can be useful to maintain the EU's legitimacy. thanks for understanding me, compatriot!
>but just to have a moderate unity Well, in that case I can't argue against that but you should be asking the Euros to be more pro-EU and why Brits left. Honestly EU won't work if it's only Germany and France doing the real work. They need more interventionist policies to make every countries share the load, which is then again can be interpreted as totalitarianism.
Aaron Clark
>They need more interventionist policies to make every countries share the load, which is then again can be interpreted as totalitarianism. *sigh* Yeah this is a problematic. The more the EU tries to apply policies based on the perspective of the entire European continent(and a bit too idealistic desires), the more it provokes "nationalist" opposition movements, and leads european skepticism to be dispersed sadly. Why? This is my own problematic. The conflict between the ideal of the one and only "Europe" and "European", and the reality of juxtaposition of nations which seems to be kinda heritage of the modernity. To resolve this challenge moderately, with avoiding as much as possible evoking racial, ethical, national problems, I come up with the idea of supernational nation.
Grayson Sanders
>I come up with the idea of supernational nation Indeed, this is a circular argument. Since the context of this discourse revolves around European countries, we Asians cannot say much in this issue. Maybe you should make a new thread and put forth this dilemma directly at the Europeans.
Brayden Taylor
Are any actual Europeans going to contribute to this thread
Jacob Hernandez
>circular argument why did you refer to it as "circular"? >Maybe you should make a new thread and put forth this dilemma directly at the Europeans. I'D EXPECTED EUROPEANS TO COME HERE AND TALK ABOUT MY ISSUE WITH ASIANS, ESPECIALLY WITH YOU INDONESIANS, BUT THEY WOULDN'T COME DESU
i fucking know it. I don't expect anything from you
Brandon Long
>circular It's going nowhere and eventually we are back at square one and Europe is still the same. It's 3 am here, I'm gonna sleep. Bye.
Jose Gomez
ah yeah, you are right. However I just wanted to discuss and inspect this possibility to change the EU in the good direction... thanks user, I'd like to visit Djakarta to ride trains we gave to you. youtube.com/watch?v=d6j0Z6LEeck
Carson Lewis
European ethnic groups have been hating each other for ca. 3,000 years, on a continent with scarce space and resources then they battled each other constantly while fighting off smallpox and clamydia, getting overrun by mongols, defending themselves from muslims and vikings while thinking that washing yourself more than once a month is a sign of the devil, burning women on a stake is a sign of your devotion to God and many more things.
Levi Sanchez
I fucking know it, know it enough to come to want to dump the knowledge of it. Then, I'd like you guys to ask, are you really fond of this constant fight? do you really want to continue fighting in vain, to lose your hegemony of the world and decline more and more? the one and only, and realistic solution to delay the decline is, the "moderate" unification with a common sense of "belonging to Europe", sense of "every nation of europe building one nation of European" otherwise, you keep fighting against each other and get exploited by China, too pious muslims(or christian), or other enemies for them. do you come up with other solutions to keep sovereignty of the European continent?
Grayson Stewart
>I'd like you guys to ask >I'd like to ask you guys oh shit sorry
Joseph Smith
How do you guys feel about the topic?
Dylan Sullivan
Because the Dutch never conquered us, they tried and failed.
Sebastian Wright
>Dutch >Hungary what
Lincoln Johnson
Dutch war criminal wanted to conquer and genocide my ancestors. He burnt down our capital
