Venture: a business enterprise or speculation in which something is risked in the hope of profit; a commercial or other speculation. dictionary.com/browse/venture
Although ETH did have an ico to raise capital like a security, unlike the shit ICOs we've all seen, ethereum and the organization itself is not using that money in a venture. The main purpose of the ethereum foundation is 'not to risk ico money to make a profit. In the style of a software organization, they are funding and building the programming structure, which other companies can use in their ventures.
The ethereum alliance is a group of companies exploring the uses of ethereum in their projects and ventures, but the ethereum currency (and the organization) itself is not a venture and therefore is not a security.
He clearly states that they have no plan changing their definition of a security for ETH and XRP. Watch the video where he is asked whether being decentralized makes you a nonsecurity despite haivng an ICO.
Lmao ETH is a venture retard. The ETH foundation asked for money in the form of BTC to fund ETH development. If it isnt a security then nothing is. Like i said to other people. If ETH is not a security, name 2 coins that are securities and why
Because we only have one verified fact: The SEC considers majority of ICOs as securities. And im wondering what makes them different from ETH aside from your kool aid.
Sebastian Jones
Eh, not convinced. Why did coinbase announce this sec regulated bs? Maybe because eth is a security? Who knows.
Noah Ward
>Tell me why I am wrong.
"4. Derived from the Managerial Efforts of Others a. The Efforts of Slock.it, Slock.it’s Co-Founders, and The DAO’s Curators Were Essential to the Enterprise Investors’ profits were to be derived from the managerial efforts of others—specifically, Slock.it and its co-founders, and The DAO’s Curators. The central issue is “whether the efforts made by those other than the investor are the undeniably significant ones, those essential managerial efforts which affect the failure or success of the enterprise.” SEC v. Glenn W. Turner Enters., Inc., 474 F.2d 476, 482 (9th Cir. 1973). The DAO’s investors relied on the managerial and entrepreneurial efforts of Slock.it and its co-founders, and The DAO’s Curators, to manage The DAO and put forth project proposals that could generate profits for The DAO’s investors."
Luke Brooks
Did BTC funders receive ETH in return? If yes, ICO.
Ventures are still regulated by the SEC
Brandon Stewart
They aren't securities. When you buy ETH you are access and the ability to use the network. If ETH is a security so is a gym membership.
Ryan Martinez
gym memberships don't have ICOs
Julian Long
you can't buy a gym membership and get promised profits by selling a gym membership because you can't sell one anyways
William Richardson
I only bought my gym membership hoping the price would moon.
Jackson Carter
>They aren't securities. When you buy ETH you are access and the ability to use the network. Verified fact: SEC believes most ICO's are securities Almost all ICOs claim to be utility tokens to avoid being tagged a security. If ETH is not a god damn security then nothing is, making the first verified fact false.
If you think otherwise name two coins that matches the SEC's definition of a security that is not ETH. Lets see if they are irrefutably securities ignoring the fact that they held an ICO.
Angel Lee
So it is a security, then what?
Nathaniel Jackson
-40% to 80% drop in satoshis for every alt that held an ICO
Nicholas Price
Thanks for the good quote, however the term "managerial" is not the nearly the same in meaning as developing a programming structure, as ETH has done.
>If ETH is not a security, name 2 coins that are securities and why Ok, so if ETH is not a security:
Ripple is a security. The company behind XRP is doing business ventures in addition to coding the underlying structure. They are forming partnerships with banks. The Ripple company offers three main products, only one of which actually uses Ripple. But Ripple co. raised capital by selling XRP.
Jackson White
Here's one. "On July 25, 2017, the SEC issued a Report of Investigation under Section 21(a) of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934 describing an SEC investigation of The DAO, a virtual organization, and its use of distributed ledger or blockchain technology to facilitate the offer and sale of DAO Tokens to raise capital. The Commission applied existing U.S. federal securities laws to this new paradigm, determining that DAO Tokens were securities. The Commission stressed that those who offer and sell securities in the U.S. are required to comply with federal securities laws, regardless of whether those securities are purchased with virtual currencies or distributed with blockchain technology."
Brandon Jones
What? Im saying that ETH and every altcoin that held an ICO is a security. You are basically supporting my point.... thanks
Dominic Barnes
Theres no expectation of profit, the price is volatile. You can just as easily expect profit loss if price moves down or an ico starts in a bear market
Michael Brown
>the term "managerial" is not the nearly the same in meaning as developing a programming structure, as ETH has done Debatable. Watch the video of the guy who went to jail for selling bitcoin. As he said, the terms are so vague that the feds can basically interpret and apply them however they wish.
Cooper Hill
I wasn't sure what you were trying to prove. I think we do agree.
Adam Ramirez
ETH is a fucking security VIVA LA SEC
Nathan Gray
ethereum is a fork. Ethereum classic original chain = security
John Long
I've seen that video, and yes it's true that feds can interpret and spin words how they wish.
When it comes to debating terms, there is a huge difference between one guy (who made bad tactical legal choices) with money transmitter laws and many motivated investors/lawyers. ETH is a large, more decentralized organization with multiple subgroups of developers/lawyers, and with businesses running the software.
I agree. I'm just saying that so far that DAO paper is one of the precedents we have. I could see the "managerial" aspect being applied fairly broadly.
Ryder Morales
>ethereum is a fork. Ethereum classic original chain = security
Say i made an ICO named FaggotCoin which is definitely a security since it was an ICO.
1. I fork the token for the shittiest reason like a name change 2. I give the same balances to every wallet in the fork (i need to save my huge dev supply) 3. The new fork is no longer a security based on your criteria
TOO EZ. The SEC wont allow this.
Isaiah Hill
How did you determine those numbers, what happens to the unregistered securities themselves?
Christian Nelson
Based on what happens when there are huge bearish news before
Gabriel Richardson
ICO tokens are already stated by the SEC as illegal securities, what other bearish news are you expecting? Why is it bearish?
Gabriel Perez
wait and see, eth is a security because of all the erc20 tokens it creates
Ayden Gray
>ICO tokens are already stated by the SEC as illegal securities, what other bearish news are you expecting? Why is it bearish?
No. People still belive that as long as your tokens are "utility" tokens it isnt a security despite having an ICO. Thats why Linkies, Reqtards dont belive its a security. They are using the Howey Test as the reason which is easy to make excuses fo
THe bearish news im expecting is the SEC announcing that holding an ICO is the criteria for being a security. There is no escaping that one. Literally everything that held an ICO would be 100% a security including ETH and RIpple.
See you in hell altcoiner
Carson Morales
It can be argued that it is not a security because pre sale investors are buying in to use the product. Its not a business venture. It relies on a token ecosystem with a community and utility use for the product. The chairman is saying this to stop scam icos, he needs to do his own research
Ryder Price
>It can be argued that it is not a security because pre sale investors are buying in to use the product. Can be said for literally every altcoin out there. Hence if ETH is not a security then nothing is. Why is it so hard for you brainlets to unnderstand.
They tried the howey test approach but every ICO ended up claiming they are not a security but a "utility token". Thats why the SEC is usingn a harsher stance now.
FFS even OmiseGo was claiming they are a utility token not a security. If these guys arent securities then NOTHING IS.
Cooper Baker
Where is the conservative movement to dismantle all this fascist KYC, SEC , AML bullshit? There's literally nobody to vote for.
Jordan Sanchez
You’re the brainlet. Tokens are not shares, their value isn’t tied to how well the organization does. Tokens are valued speculatively, here is the problem, on their utility in a token ecosystem. You dont rely on the efforts of ethereum foundation to raise the price. Casper wasnt going to make the price shoot up. The value is in the token exchange and use in its ecosystem made up of people, a third party. The problem is The current speculation is only on efforts of organizations to make partnerships or to develop the product, when speculation should be on the use case within communities.
Adam Nelson
>Tokens are not shares, OH wow. So there are no securities then? all fucking altcoins that held an ICOs are NOT securities. It seems the SEC was fucking lying.
Really, whos the brainlet here?
Mason Smith
They will be classified as securities there's no question about that, SEC has literally said directly that ICO tokens are securities. The only difference now is between registered and unregistered, and if they will allow opportunity for registration to flush out all scamcoins.
Julian Myers
Hes not lying. He has no understanding of what micro transactions are or what token economies can be like. He is only looking at it from the perspective that he and the public see. Buying a digital coin from someone else at a higher price than they bought for with the same expectation to do to someone else. Theres going to need to be some debate on the law
Jack Harris
In terms of stance on tokens, the SEC may be using harsher words, but don't want to clarify too much beyond reiterating the current security laws. They know that if they clarify too much, shit ico tokens will just find ways to weasel out using SEC words as shit icos have already done by claiming safety with utilities.
Because the SEC will probably not clarify further, my bet is that ethereum will not fall under the current (vague, tried, and tested) securities laws.
Did you miss my argument that XRP is a security? What are your thoughts? >Ripple is a security. The company behind XRP is doing business ventures in addition to coding the underlying structure. They are forming partnerships with banks. The Ripple company offers three main products, only one of which actually uses Ripple. But Ripple co. raised capital by selling XRP.
Ethereum and Ripple are completely different. Ripple raised capital via XRP and offers some products for profit that don't even use XRP. Ethereum raised capital to fund a programming structure and organization, not to develop a product that would gain profit. Other companies are building on top of ETH for their ventures and products. Ethereum organization could walk away right now and ETH would still function acceptably with other businesses building on top of ETH, cannot say the same for the Ripple company and XRP.
And how are they going to enforce ownership of securities? KYC for every address, only for US citizens?
Hudson Ross
Go ahead and buy them, that will be almost impossible to stop. Just don't plan on ever doing anything with your earnings.
Jason Ortiz
>shit ico tokens will just find ways to weasel out using SEC words as shit icos have already done by claiming safety with utilities. Thats why the only way out is claiming ICO = security
>Ethereum organization could walk away right now and ETH would still function acceptably with other businesses building on top of ETH, cannot say the same for the Ripple company and XRP. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripple_(payment_protocol) XRP software has been opensource since 2013. You could say that even without Ripple (the company) XRP can still continue as a competitor to XLM.
>Ripple raised capital via XRP and offers some products for profit that don't even use XRP. Touche, the Ethereum foundation has an advantage over this one. Although there are 2 problems to this.
1. the SEC clearly states majority are ICOs but what other ICO aside from Ripple Tech and EOS made a token and also offer paid enterprise products. None. That makes it 2 securities, the SEC said there are a lot.
2. Isnt Joseph Lubin the cofounder of Ethereum makingn Consensys considered a venture? There are offering consulting services for enterprises about Ethereum.
Joseph Harris
The ownership doesn't matter, the sale of unregistered securities is the problem
Joseph Bell
Eth tokens are closer to being big mac coupons, than actual stocks of mcdonalds. you buy and sell a token that can be redeemed and used to run a dapp on the ETH network. Completely different than stocks/securities IMO. It could be a different asset class. I'm sure this will end up in the courts.
Aaron Thomas
The absolute state of burgers. Already non of the burgers is allowed to participate in ICOs except accr. investors and VCs. Who the fuck cares about this whole shit? Ban the american fags from centrl exchanges too. Who the fuck really cares. If that's what you people voted for and wanted, fine. Respect the democratic choice.
