Reposting interesting post by a Spanish user

The War of Independence/Peninsular War did mark a paradigm shift between Spain as "western" (Spaniards as pale, stern, haughty, cruel men in dark clothes and starched ruffs; hidalgos, inquisitors and grandees) to Spain as "eastern" (Spaniards as swarthy, passionate, anarchic, hot-blooded men in colourful, exotic clothes; bandoleros, bullfighters and gypsies).

The reasons would deserve an in-depth explanation but it would take too long, it was a mixture of events, the particular circumstances of the War (which happened mostly in the southern regions), the fall of grace of Spain, propaganda, etc.

However, Franco (the "great patriot"), in the 60's, instead of going back to a more aristocratic and lordly vision of Spain, he used, abused, mixed, added flavor and exaggerated all he could the exotic stereotype to attract tourism, he even put gypsy "cantaors" (singers) at the forefront of the Spanish cultural exports and tourism ads, this was to create a friendly, different, dummy, exotic environment that would attract a particular kind of tourist: the middle/high-class Northern European, who bored of his lavish life would seek new (but safe) worlds to explore and spend a lot of money in the process.

This has hurt Spain to extents that are difficult to even imagine, but put short: the stereotype is so far from reality that there is even a disconnection between the Spanish people and the very concept of Spain or Spaniards, to the point that I would argue that this is one of the major contributors to the anti-patriotic sentiments in this country and the independentist movements we have today in every corner of the nation.

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Can other Spanish anons corroborate what he wrote?

I wouldnt say its the culture itself that has harmed Spain, it was just Franco.

The way its seen is that all of the traditional and stereotypical vision there is of Spain (bullfighting, noblity and all of those things that are considered today as "casposos") is the cultural legacy of Franco.

So, if you have that backround in Spain and you are a catholic, you are seen as a "facha". Its a huge mess, but its true that there is little patriotic sentiment in Spain, but its slowly changing with some issues.

Also, the independence movments are fueled by other things, such as historical manipulation and too many concessions from the central goverment.

What is casposo?
>but its slowly changing with some issues.
What issues and why?

BASED Napoleon removed over 900,000 spaniards civilians and soldiers.

We should have killed at least 5-10 millions honestly.

>Spaniards as pale

any source about that? hard to believe euros saw us like that

this desu
spain should've been repopulated by europeans and all arabs expelled

Ok Roger Cannoli

Casposo could be translated to old-fashioned but in a bad way.

Its changing now recently with all of the catalan problem, mixed with a bit of immigration and the feminist/PC culture. There is this new party (well, its not new, but it recently entered national politics) called VOX. Right wing, conservative, considered by some to be extreme right.

And this party has risen because, in a way, "someone needed to defend Spain" kinda way. Since the two old political parties have contributied to the erosion of Spain (in several aspects), Vox is just the reaction. Its a bit hard to explain and i'm leaving many details, but its roughly like this.

Reminder that France is the evil of western Europe, at least pre 1800 and not us.

But Spain is cool

Are you the Swiss Araboo?

Kinda true desu

Not a fan of muslims no. But Andalusia is still pretty cool

Is the king considered a “facha” then since he is nobility?
>mixed with a bit of immigration
Do Spanish have problems with immigrants like in other European countries? I know there’s been Muslim tracks but I hadn’t seen any pushback from those like in Germany or France.
>VOX
Is it like your Front National, AfD and all that?

STFU Have you even been to Spain?

Spain is cool. I don't get why people would be disinterested in what mentinoed as "casposos" or "facha." That sort of stuff is pretty rad, and I'm glad a bit of it carried over into Central America. What sort of cultural things would they prefer to have???

So what IS the real Spain?
But I guess you like Andalusian because of the exotic image? Or at least that what it’s implied in the original post.

1850s-1930s Spain best Spain

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cuck

Based low-brow poster.

>obviously the worst period in our history

Casposo means covered in dandruffs, facha is just the shortening of fascist, the french have the exact same word.

all spanish traditions in latin america should be erased

why did you stop doing anything after Napoleon?

What’s the relation between dandruff and old-fashioned?

Well thanks for the translation, gives some light into it. What sort of culture and personality do you think Spanish people should have then? What is the exact demand that it be shifted to?

Old and dusty.

We stopped tearing shit up around the globe and instead we started tearing shit up in Spain

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We have problems with moroccans, romanians, gipsies and sub saharians. They receive all the support and financial help from the government. Moroccans for example are the 1,6% of the population in Spain but commited in 2015 53 out of 300 murders (and they're not counting the ones with spanish nationality because those are reflected as "spanish")

>Is it like your Front National, AfD and all that?
The first person to congratulate Vox for the results in andalusia was Le Pen, what do you think.

Well, its a good question. The current King no, but his father King Juan Carlos inherited the throne with Francos permission. Sort of. That part in history in Spain (mid 70's) were a convoluted time, so its a difficult subject. But basically no, its not "facha". But the monarchy has other problems, so lets leave it at that.

As far as I'm aware Spain has a problem with immigration, particulary in the south of Spain. They receive the vast majority of the illegal immigrants that come from north africa primarly. It affects the whole country, but its far more noticeable in Andalusia and the southern regions. The problem is perhaps not that bad, in comparison with other countries, but it might be soon enough, especially with the goverment that we currently have.

Yes, VOX is our version of Front National, AfD and all that

As a republic just like the first french republic, with all of its measures (especially erasing the regional minorities and centralizing the country).

The same republic that entered perpetual war, and handed control to a single autocrat?

Well, they didnt enter perpetual war, it was just that the Second Republic was a complete disaster.

Yeah and tb h probably those moors weren't so bad. Judging by what they built they seem more civilized that the one we have today

>Romanians
Ethnic Romanians? Or gypsies from Romania?
What about Latinos? I’ve heard there are a lot of them there, too besides the North Africans and Gypsies you have.

It’s interesting that you now have a far-right party, I remember reading a lot of articles talking about how Spain was an exception to this trend in Europe.

>moroccans, romanians, gipsies and sub saharians
south americans too,especially the dominicans

Didn’t they persecute Jews and Christians during the Almohad and Almoravid periods? They also destroyed Visigothic churches and built mosques on top iirc.

For me Latinos are a different kind of immigrants. There are far more closer to us and its easy to meet someone from South America. There are problems with latin immigration, but I would consider it different. But that's just my personal opinion.

Yeah, I remember those articles too. Oh well. Just Portugal left now.

Yeah latinos too I forgot, they have their shitty gangs and rape spanish girls and kill eachother all the time. Some are okay compared to moroccans but not much else.

Are the Latinos you get the brown Mestizo ones? Or the upper class ones that look white and are mostly of Spanish/European stock?
>Portugal left now
I think they don’t have many migrants like other European countries so maybe that’s why.

How do they even get there from so far away? Can they just hop on a plane and live there or something?

Yeah but with Islam is always like that. You have a cool caliphate that seems almost ok then a bunch of idiots destroy everything kek But honestly I've seen more cool muslim architecture in Andalusia than in Morocco so probably some were ok

since they're ex territories they have it easier to get the nationality

We get mostly brown short ones but there are some whiter argentinians too.

>Can they just hop on a plane and live there or something?
basically, it's easier for them obtain the spanish nationality so basically they take a plane a come here, what is the problem for those people? there are not jobs even for us.

I don’t really like Andalusian Muslim architecture to be honest. I think it looks pretty boring.

>a come here
and come here*

>Are the Latinos you get the brown Mestizo ones? Or the upper class ones that look white and are mostly of Spanish/European stock?

mainly browns but whites from venezuela/argentina/uruguay

>venezuela
wow so venezuelans are white now!!!!! what are you smoking Jorge?

Has there ever been any attempts to change the law?
I’m guessing the Argentinians integrate better? Here in the US the whitest Latinos are Cubans and they’re the most assimilated group.

Also, did you know we had some small Spanish immigration to the US? We even have small Basque and Canadian communities.

>wow so venezuelans are white now!!!!! what are you smoking Jorge?

venezuelans with money from the opposition are mostly whites

>I’m guessing the Argentinians integrate better?
Yes, the others usually create those gangs you see in your country too. Argentinians are a bunch of arrogant leftists but at least don't commit crimes.

>did you know we had some small Spanish immigration to the US?
user, 1/3 of your country was ours.

I’m talking about real Spanish immigration to the actual US.

There’s a lot of “Spanish” in the SW but they’re mostly Mexicans that stayed there after we conquered it and call themselves Spanish for some reason.

>I think they don’t have many migrants like other European countries so maybe that’s why.

You would be surprised, immigration is now a big talking point here as well. We're just late to the party.

What immigrants do you have? Do you have a VOX-like part then? What’s it called?

>be super proffesional french soldier
>get killed by poor spanish peasants

lmao sad

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>I’m guessing the Argentinians integrate better?
"yes" ,personally i don't like when they say that everything is better in Argentina and i wonder why do you move here if everything is better in your country?

>What immigrants do you have?

PALOP's, Brazillians, Gyppos, Ukrainians, Frogs and Britoids

>Do you have a VOX-like part then? What’s it called?

No not yet, we're still in the beginning of the problem.

Because it's not, they know it and hate it.

>Argentinians are a bunch of arrogant leftists but at least don't commit crimes.
I'm kind of triggered by the fact that they are leftists.

Fucking cunts, they left this leftist shithole and try to make other places leftists shitholes.

We have like, 3 or 4 argentinian politicians here and they're all against spanish nationalism, pro catalonian independence, leftist-communists. The fuck is wrong with your country.

>I wouldnt say its the culture itself that has harmed Spain, it was just Franco
The Franco regime was just the tip of the iceberg. The very existence of Spain has been bad news since the beginning.
- look at the 80 years' war: while the Dutch were inventing capitalism in a context of religious freedom and Dutch bourgeoisie started private companies, our aristocrats were getting rich from American silver because working meant unclean blood - as a result, the Dutch became the richest country in the world whereas we went from bankruptcy to bankruptcy
- while European universities were controlled by scientists like D'Alembert, Leibniz or Newton, our own universities literally banned scientific publications which contradicted Catholic doctrine, such that ignorance has been regarded as an asset to this very day
- our modern national character was forged at the war with Napoleon, which was a national war against 'foreign invasive' French Republican values such as secularism, rationalism or egalitarianism, which are still shunned by the average Spaniard
- we had THREE civil wars before 1936, started by Carlists, a popular movement that demanded an absolute monarchy with the Church on top - no other European nation may claim the same, right?
- we were the very last Western European country to abolish slavery, and the second last Western country after Brazil; in contrast, Latin American countries that seceded from us proclaimed emancipation asap
Spain as a nation has consistently been a force against progress, reason and civilisation. Things that have been bad for our country (end of Tercios' hegemony, industrial revolution, loss of colonies, end of slavery etc) have been good for humanity. There is absolutely nothing that justifies the continued existence of the Spanish state, it is an expired joke by this point.

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>they left this leftist shithole and try to make other places leftists shitholes.
Spain is a shithole itself

What are PALOP’s? Do you have problems with all these groups? Even with the other Europeans?

A ver, es cierto que hubo mucho elementos en la historia de España que han sido cagadas de las gordas, y hay que decir que muchas de ellas influenciadas por la Iglesia, que en España tenía un poder tremendo. Y luego súmale monarcas inútiles o políticos corruptos y todo lo que quieras.

Yo a veces he pensado que siempre han dado por saco a España desde que era un poder mundial pero que nunca hicimos nada para protegernos. Y lo que hicimos pues tuvo el efecto contrario. Aunque añadiría que los españoles de ahora no tenemos mucho que ver con los del siglo XVIII para atras.

Lo que no entiendo del todo es lo que de no hay razón que justifique el estado español hoy en día.

Mexicans say the same here.
Sounds like an interesting bunch. Kek.

>we were the very last Western European country to abolish slavery, and the second last Western country after Brazil;
What the hell.
Please post an English version.

Well it is true that there were many elements in the history of Spain that have been major fuck ups, and it must be said that many of them were influenced by the Church, which in Spain had tremendous power. And then add up useless monarchs or corrupt politicians and all of that.

I've often thought that ever since Spain was a major world power, it has been attacked and slandered, but we have never truly defended ourselves. And what we did just had the opposite effect. Although I would add that the Spaniards of now dont have much in common with those of the 18th Century and before that.

What i dont understand is the argument that there is no reason that justifies the Spanish state today.

Thanks
Why do you think the church had such vast power over Spain? And was it really all that different from other Catholic countries?
>Although I would add that the Spaniards of now dont have much in common with those of the 18th Century and before that.
Besides the obvious modernization what makes you say this?

>the anti-patriotic sentiments in this country and the independentist movements we have today in every corner of the nation.

Nope, they're all from the 19th century when Spain was BTFO, got permanent PTSD, and authority lost all respect.

What happens in Spain in the 19th century?

I personally cant find now a specific reason as to why the Church had such tremedous power in Spain, beyond the typical answers of because the people were ignorant and all of that. I'd say its a bunch of reasons, but Catholicism came to stay. Losing its grip though now and for some time actually.

For me we are different because of the many and great changes there were from the napoleonic invasions, both republics and their failures, the loss of the colonies, the various dictatorships, the Civil War and of course Franco's regime. And I'm leaving out many things that I'm forgetting or not remeber.

But the thing is that with the decline of the spanish empire and all of this changes of State, the unity of the country was lost. In many ways you could say that the modern Spaniards are the shards of the past and some new ones glued together in a strange mix. Its hard to explain and english is not my first language.

For me, modernization and technological improvments have nothign to do with the differences between us and our ancestors from 200 years ago. Its the vast changes and a shattered sense of unity because of our recent history.

Lost our colonies.
3 big civil wars.
coup d'etat by liberals or conservatives every other year.
Got stuck as a shithole instead of industrializing.
Became irrelevant.

While the civilised world was building factories and educating the masses, we were dealing with three beta uprisings. (Seriously - their main motivation was to send women to the kitchen instead of allowing them to rule)

Did the Protestant Reformation never reach Spain? I know even Italy had some Protestant movements.

What do you think modern Spaniards would be be like if there hadn’t been suck break from the past?

Are these the Carlist wars?

Yes, exactly. A not so well known fact is that Franco chose to go back to the red - yellow - red flag as a gesture to his Carlist allies; fascists rose up in 1936 under the Republican flag originally.

Protestantism was an anti spanish movement at its core back then, german princes used it as an arguement to rebel against our authority.
We burned the few retards who were protestants.