Alright Spen, how do you plan on dealing with these "people"?

Its not my fault the government is fucking retarded and thinks every community should be 100% loyal because of a piece of paper signed 40 years ago and doesn't campaign for pro spanish sentiment.
by the way there have been referendums in the past, their plan is to do them until the independentist side wins because autonomous communities are the most retarded system we could think.

>t.jordi

Yeah because that totally does not have anything to do with the English sperging out with Brexit.

Afaik there hasn't been an official vote organised by Madrid though.
Québecois eventually gave up, and they have a much stronger claim than Catalonia.

>Government party allows a referendum in catalonia
>Government party never gets elected again

They were sperging out before Brexit as well.

Still nobody expected Brexit to happen.
If Bremain had won, unionists would have a 10p. lead.

>there have been referendums in the past
sauce?

El chiste que hicieron en el 2017 en el que la guardia civil les pego un poco a los lufos y por el cual declararon la república después.

This.

Has anyone here noticed how ERC (Catalonyan regional party) is in full apeshit mode because the "Podemas" and PSOE have not formed a government?

But what did they expect? Did they really believe in ERC, that the PSOE (centre right) was going to pardon all Catalan politicians from go to jail or something like that?

Attached: 1524736929780.gif (480x480, 375K)

this
it really will not matter because they will just that time didn't count until they win. spaniards are all lazarillos.

The point is that they CAN have a referendum if they do it legally and constitutionally. The problem for indepes is that this is unfeasible for their side, because the Constitution forbids altering the borders, so they need to
> organise and win a referendum to change the Constitution first,
and then,
> with a modified Constitution, celebrate a legal independence referendum.
A referendum for constitutional change takes a shitload of Parliament votes and all parties except local secessionists are against it, so they simply can't do it legally. So they did it illegally, despite the dozens of judges who had been advising them not to break the law or face consequences. That's how they were stomped to the curb.

If you want to count that that was a win

a very very shady win. considering the various photos of people voting more than once. and what was the result? around a a 50/50?

>The point is that they CAN have a referendum if they do it legally and constitutionally.
They cannot, as even your first point implies that the rest of Spain should have a say on whether Catalonia should stay or not. Why the fuck would an Andalusian support border changes? I'm not even a supporter of Catalan independence but one cannot deny that it's not surprising that they feel oppressed when they have not been given the right to choose.

>and what was the result? around a a 50/50?
lmao no it was nazi germany tier, 90% or so in favour because everybody against didn't take part

Treating them like anyone else and letting them and their retarded ideology self-destruct seems like the logical course. It only takes a tiny bit of spine to ignore their tantrums when you apply the law with naturality.

Attached: 1563305805920.jpg (752x1024, 112K)

exactly. and that was because the government said they shouldn't vote to not give it legitimacy.

>They feel oppressed when they have not been given the right to choose.
They dont feel oppressed, they wanted more power with a new estatuto but judges cucked them because it was illegal so they thought they could force the government's hand with all the independence bullshit and got too carried away.

Who gives a shit what they think? Rome would probaboy beat the shit out of the Venetians if they chimped out for independence more than usual. Catalans should shut up.

I still don't understand why Jow Forums wants them to fail so badly.

They are retarded, if there was a legit referendum no would win by a landslide because most of the population comes from other regions at least partially if not totally

>that the rest of Spain should have a say on whether Catalonia should stay or not
And it should, because Catalonia is an *integral* part of the Spanish state since its creation. Spain is not a federation of republics like Czechoslovakia or Yugoslavia. This is not Slovenia seceding from Yugoslavia, it's the city of Ljubljana seceding from Slovenia. In international law, there are four situations that justify a referendum of secession, none of which applies to Catalonia:

pesd.princeton.edu/?q=node/254

> 1) if the seceding state is a colony (e.g. independence of Algeria, Pakistan, Malta)
Decolonisation is supervised and encouraged by the UN. Catalonia is not a colony of Spain, but one of its integral parts. It doesn't fit the description of a colony and no subject of international law ever declared that it is one.
> 2) if there is a situation of violent oppression that leaves independence as the only solution to avoid human rights abuses (e.g. independence of South Sudan, Bangladesh, Namibia)
Catalonia isn't being oppressed by means of apartheid or violence. Catalans have got their own police force, regional parliament, free and periodic elections, and all human rights and democratic freedoms are respected. No, "b-but living in a monarchy is literal fascism" is not what international law meant.
> 3) if a federation is dissolved (e.g. independence of Slovakia, Montenegro, Serbia)
Spain is not a federation so this point doesn't apply either.
> 4) if the people and institutions of the seceding state are not represented at national level and the nation-state has no plans to do so (e.g. independence of Kosovo)
Kosovo is the only example and half of the world doesn't recognise this pretext. Anyway Catalonia is well represented at a national level in the Spanish parliament and senate. Even their specifically local Catalan parties have got representation in the nation.
So no, a referendum is not justifiable from the point of view of law.

>Spain is not a federation so this point doesn't apply either.
Spain is a fusion of different kingdoms and historical regions. It also acknowledges this fact in the constitution. It is pretty much a federation

Because they are scum user, absolutely dogshit tier, even andalusians are better in comparison. If I were Spain I would give them independence just to bomb their cities flat the day after and reannex them.

Re-conquista, not simply conquista, and it was started by a Visigoth.

Attached: 902.jpg (500x403, 30K)

"Pretty much a federation" doesn't mean legally a federation like USA or Germany. The autonomous communities weren't internationally recognised entities that decided to federate into a nation-state, they were parts of a preexisting nation-state. In any case, the five kingdoms that formed the Spanish nation were Navarre, Castile, León, Aragón and Granada. Castile, León and Aragón were united by feudal shenanigans, Navarre and Granada were conquered. Catalonia was a province of Aragón. It wasn't even its own kingdom.

this post is too good.

Based

And the reason they don't have legal powers is because Spain was a dictatorship hellbend on unifying the country under Madrid until the 70s. It's not exactly a very naturally developed democracy like the USA or even Germany.
It's always hard to define what is or isn't a nation but places like Catalonia and Basque Country are about the closest you can get in the world.

It's okay if you don't want them to go independent but I often get the feeling Spaniards just lie and twist facts in order to make it appear like there is no legal or moral standpoint for secessions.

That's like saying you can't

Technically right does not make it morally right. The Chinese government has the legitimacy to impose authoritarian methods, yet this does not mean Westerners are gonna agree with that.

Just to make it clear I don't give a single fuck about Catalonia, but you're not gonna killing off the separatist movements with these technicalities.

>It's not exactly a very naturally developed democracy like the USA or even Germany.
The absolute state of Netherlands education

It's a traditionally leftist/liberal region. Nu-Jow Forums hates that

This words it very well.
How so? Germany had a lot of turmoil in the past but inbetween dictatorships and emperors and the likes the country still had some continuity.

Also why not adress some of the other points made?

>andalucian immigrants grandchildren are the most rabid independentists
It's like all the cuban magapedes. You have much to learn about universal whiggerism

Everything touching the Pyrenees owes nothing to the asturian "visigoths" as it was recovered for christendom by the franks.

Can anyone in this thread explain me what is the reason of existence of link related? en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arc_de_Triomf

spain isn't a dictatorship and the constitution allowed the intervention of catalans and basques. it was approved with a 90%+. in fact, it was promoted by most regionalists because autonomous communities benefit regions more than a completely centralized government.

We invented parliamentarism and modern nation states for one. We also had our share of masonic republics is that what you're looking for.

How many seconds did they last, as an independent country, again?

It probably looked good at the time but apparently the regionalists are not very happy with it now and they are told that they can't have any change because the Spanish constitutition doesn't allow for it.

>Catalonia was a province of Aragón.
Not how the aragonese saw it at the time. They gave the catalans their own institutions and corts. And they had the three regular feudal estates, not the exceptional four of Aragon. Finally, territories that did have rhe dignity of kingdom didn't have their own corts. In conclusion, not being a kingdom was completely irrelevant in medieval Aragon.

so, you break the law to make referendums, but then will probably ban the other referendums that happen
and do you just keep doing referendums until catalanist win and then stop doing it, or keep doing it and if spaniards win you go back to spain?= sounds retarded

>spain isn't a dictatorship
Truth is as long as you don't allow them to vote, they will always look like the victims, regardless of whether Madrid is right from a legal POV.
70 years ago this would have been solved with a war.

So from what I gather Catalan is the richest part of Spain.

How does that make any sense? The most important part of the country can't secede from the country; they're the country.

>They gave the catalans their own institutions and corts.
You notice how they gave? Giving implies you can also take it back again when someone behaves not according to your liking.
Scotland also has their own parliament.

>Give something to regionalist
>They want more

Oh what a surprise. Spain can change the constitution but there political consensus to do so.

For fucks sake at least the vascos try it with iron and blood, that is respectable. Catalonia isn't.

It's literally in your own Wikipedia page, dumb burger.
>It does not celebrate the country's military victories, but rather was built as the gateway to the 1888 World Fair and was thus intended to welcome people.

>For fucks sake at least the vascos try it with iron and blood, that is respectable. Catalonia isn't.
Yeah and now they're in the
>NOOOO you cannot have independence you are terrorists
vs
>NOOOO you cannot have independence you haven't fought for it
trap

>Having a triumph arc
>Does not represent any triumph

Who is the dumb here jordi?

its not. that would be navarra. and that isn't basque country either. they will also tell you that they score better in education which is also wrong, that goes to Castille-Leon and Asturias. Catalonia is important and so is basque country but don't eat too many lies from the independentists.

> as long as
Andf what did you do with the Padanian Declaration of Independence in 1996?

That thing has 1 full line of text on Wikipedia

>they will also tell you that they score better in education

lol who cares

>I got a B in math... Looks like another century of slavery for us.

Never have I said Italy is much better in that regard, as we have not let the South Tyroleans vote on the reunification with Austria. But we don't really have a separatist movement as strong as the Catalan one (Padania is a meme in comparison and you know it).

>NOOOOOOO WHY AREN'T YOUR LAWS COMPLETELY ARBITRARY!!!
>OTHER COUNTRIES WITH DIFFERENT TYPES OF GOVERNMENTS, HISTORY, POLITICAL STRUCTURES AND CULTURES WOULD LET THEM VOTEEEEE
foreigners can blow me

Is Scotland considered a fucking province? Also I said "gave" because that's what fucking monarchs do. They also gave courts to Aragon (the kingdom) and Valencia. But not Mallorca, by the way. And ironically it was the catalan's fault.

Spain was ALREADY a unified state centuries before Franco was born, since king Ferdinand's invasion of Navarra in 1512. We had a democratic system (corrupt, unstable, colonial - but democratic) with universal male suffrage in 1869, way before other Western countries. Before the dictatorship, we had a democratic republic with universal suffrage and Europe's first female minister. In the 1920s there was another dictatorship, preceded by a democracy. We spent more of the 20th century as a democracy than as a dictatorship. Why do some people believe that history started in WW2?
Also the main centralising effort was made not by the 20th c. dictators but by Philip V Bourbon, who won the war of Spanish succession against the Habsburgs. He punished the regions that mostly supported his rival (Catalonia, Aragón, Valencia) by replacing their local laws (called fueros, in Spanish) with Castilian jurisprudence. The regions that mostly supported him (Castile, Navarra, Basque country) kept their own laws. This doesn't make Valencia "less Spanish" than Navarra or vice versa, and it certainly doesn't mean "the Spaniards annexed" those regions.

>Lega Nord isn't a separatists party
OK Mario

Attached: cartoon-italian-chef--gesture-ok-comsorg.jpg (530x799, 77K)

Our bourgeois class, who built that arch and our stupid form of nationalism. If we had adopted a different form closer to the basque approach we would be independent already or at least dead so we don't have to suffer being the worst part of Spain.

kek.
In his day I wasted my time thinking utopian realities:

Catalonia could have been an international tax haven, something like Monaco. Spain could have received part of the money by providing them the spanish army. They would have had their independence in exchange for an annual tax, similar to what the other regions already give to the Spanish state.

everything could have changed without having changed anything.

Attached: 1525962545983.jpg (412x550, 47K)

I know right? its something they always bring up in international conversations. as if to say "we are supperior, we deserve it"
I can already picture his answer
>i-its all bullshit technicisms!
>NOT DEMOCRATIC

Are you replying without properly reading because you're seething or what?
Lega is voted in the south too, it has even dropped "Nord" from its logo. It stopped being an actual separatist party in the 90s, and even then the support for actual independence for the north was far from being as widespread as catalanism.

Good reply thank you
>I can already picture his answer
I'm not out here to own the scatalansXD
And in his reply you can also read how as a measure of punishment the centralized monarch changed laws of the regions he didn't like and replaced them with the laws of Castille, the dominant region.

I'm not sure what you are trying to proof here. The chances of Catalonia ever secceding are slim to none but it's not like Francoists such as yourself have some moral or legal highground.

>Lega is voted in the south too
I know Terrones are votting that because they don't have their own racist party, I rather vote CasaPound instead if i were them

We were historically the archetypal industrial region in a country with a (false) archetype of not having any industry. We developed archetypes based on being industrious, greedy and open to Europe based on that. Basques followed a similar path but also developed different archetypes based on their rural and traditional landscape to compensate. We clearly failed at doing so, although rural catalan archetypes exist. Watch Ocho Apellidos Vascos and Ocho Apellidos Catalanes to see how we completely failed at marketing an archetype and an identity that isn't based around a single awful city full of immigrants and hipsters.

I am not a francoist. I am a spanish nationalists. that means I love catalonia and basque country, as much as I love leon (my province) and canarias, ceuta y melilla. I'd love for people here in Spain to stop fighting each other for petty shit, but spain has been fighting itself since preroman times. we just an enemy to focus our incel tier rage

>you're not gonna killing off the separatist movements with these technicalities
That's not the point. The point is that Catalan separatism is rooted in feelings. Of course nobody is telling indepes to stop being indepes OR ELSE like in Napoleonic times. But their movement is unjustified in international law, lacks support in the international community (unlike other illegal independence movements like Donetsk, Transnistria, Kosovo, Nagorno-Karabakh etc), and doesn't even show a roadmap like how to organise transport, borders, taxes, defence, trade and so on. It's just feelings. Catalan indepes dream of carrying the Catalan flag in Olympic events, showing a Catalan passport at the airport, being respected by Swedish and German businessmen as the vanguard of European economy as opposed to those pig-fucking Spanish rednecks, etc. Nobody is going to challenge that dream, but if you're not 16 years old, you know it's not realistic.

>spain
>dealing with anything
They are going to take a siesta and everything will solve by itself, or lose it like always.

Attached: 123.gif (500x253, 463K)

>Spain was ALREADY a unified state centuries before Franco was born, since king Ferdinand's invasion of Navarra in 1512.
Why not 1580? Because Portugal managed to get out? That's presentist and dishonest.

>pic
don't lose your head over it mexinarco

Attached: portuguese.png (1152x623, 1.43M)

>Why not 1580?
Maybe because Milano and Sicily lasted more as part of Spain than Portugal and we aren't claiming that neither.

>centralized monarch changed laws of the regions he didn't like and replaced them with the laws of Castille, the dominant region.
Mate it was 1714. Beginning of the 18th century. Before Enlightenment. The days of Eugen of Savoy, Louis XIV and Charles XII of Sweden. The standard procedure by an absolute monarch with people he disliked in those times was genocide. Philip V was diplomatically sound enough to leave it at deleting the old fueros in regions that had fought his dynasty.

None of your posts show any love. Also a significant part of Spain would be quite happy if all actual catalans died and were replaced. I say this as an independentist who gave up a long time ago because everything said here is true right now. Catalanophobia exists and it's rampant, and it has little to do with independentism.

truth hurts right? you dumb lazy moor, soon you will be a puerto rico 2.0.

Attached: 321.jpg (1024x768, 128K)

Unvalid reason, all catalans are full jews.

Portugal was always part of Spain, because Spain meant all the fucking peninsula until historically recently. The portuguese only started seething over being spanish when they realized that meant being part of a country called Spain ruled from Castille.

Make them learn Andalusian language, there's a reason Andalusia doesn't secede despite also being southern.

>None of your posts show any love.
the only post I made was the one answering the swede about how usually independentists lie about things to make themselves seem superior, like education.
>Catalanophobia exists
yes
>and it's rampant
not quite but its growing and its something the government should fix. I would say that anticatalan sentiment attracts franco boomers the most. the media does a shitty job on purpouse for the sake of consumer segregation. if there was no problem in catalonia, there would be no headlines.

Andalusian isn't a different language. It's superior and more evolved spanish.

basado illo

>Catalonia was a province of Aragón. It wasn't even its own kingdom
You don't really understand how feudalism works but I'm not going to engage in a petty pointless discussion with a retard in a chink board

amigo, all communities make jokes about one another, the only reason catalans are getting more jokes now its because they are in the spotlight. here in northern spain basques, asturians and galicians made jokes in which in the other was the butt. and you have to remember that not until recently all jokes were about andalusians.

>ruled from Galicia.
fxd that 4u

Attached: 1509377768939.png (1920x1314, 1.59M)

It has always been present, way before there were any headlines. As a person who simply cannot pass as anything but catalan (accent is a bitch) and has traveled quite a lot I know it well. In fact sometimes I get the impression that independentism has at least decreased it since back then they just insulted and disrespected you randomly and now they mostly try to find a reason and even ask and want to know more about our situation and what we, individually, think about it. Before you say it's because I'm a redneck, please consider how the basque or the asturian redneck is basically glorified and the galician redneck has pretty neutral stereotypes. The only community that got insulted and disrespected more than us was Andalucía and at least they could compensate by being the poster boy of hispanity. If you didn't see this is because either you didn't had much contact with catalans or because you come from a quite open minded community (or both).

I'm always amazed at the amount of butthurt we cause just by existing, look how fast this thread filled up

they have a massive inferiority complex towards us

Attached: Catalonia redpill.png (2170x1596, 1.84M)

I'm from Girona.

not true btw

Attached: Independence support.png (750x784, 384K)

Gerona*
Habla con propiedad, paleto.

>Catalonia was a province of Aragón
Nope Catalonia were a bunch of counties that belong to Aragon, after that it was a principality a couple of years like Asturias now, inside Spain.