Can you achieve the same level of insight/“4D thinking” that psychedelics offer without actually taking them?

What does this "insight" entail?

I mean really the best use of psychedelics is for people who have issues like anxiety or being introvert or not having any motivation or even PTSD or whatever.

My best times with psychedelics felt like I was a kid again, a kid running out the school doors to enjoy 15 minutes of recess and the whole world was my oyster. That raw pristine feeling of childlike possibilities and potential and desire to do things and create isn't something that that be obtained by conventional ways.

Maybe like hypnotherapy? is that even real?

The closest thing I have as a sober person now is when I come home from hour-long runs and my mind is clear and nothing matters and I feel great. It's not the same and it's different but that's good. I also don't have to trip for 6 hours when I go for an hour long run.

Because I’m too biased to see that they have transcended normal human consciousness? Again, do you have anything real to back this claim up?

Breathing exercises can do that. Wim Hof's method can get me high pretty quick when I bother to do it properly.

>see that they have transcended normal human consciousness

I never said anything about that

That’s what OP is asking, if users get to a place that non users can’t get to. And this is where some moderate goes, “It’s possible, but not likely,” basically pushing the exact same thing.

Hallucinogens do not make you smarter. They do not induce epiphanies. Souls are not real. There is no insight. You're just fucking tripping.

Get fucked.

see: You COULD get over anxiety or depression or whatever else with hours and days and weeks and months and years of therapy and medication and meditation and self-help books - or you could do Ayahuasca once or twice.

Depression is such a catchall for feeling bad that I’m not surprised someone does psychedellics and it improves. But then you become cursed with recommending everyone else do psychedelics? Is that worth the convenience of curing depression instantly?

Or course psychedellics expand your mind very quickly, but what OP was asking was if his mind can expand in the same way without using, and the answer is yes. He just won’t get the hallucinations or suddenly be hit with a big wall of existential thoughts.

>But then you become cursed with recommending everyone else do psychedelics?

I don't do that. Most people's minds are too frail to handle psychedelics especially given that they're an illegal substance.

>Or course psychedellics expand your mind very quickly, but what OP was asking was if his mind can expand in the same way without using, and the answer is yes

How? Have you experienced psychedelics yourself?

No, they aren’t safe. I’ve smoked weed and was fine but even weed triggers things in people.

And l mean it is possible they get you to a mental point no one can get to naturally, but I’ve witnessed no evidence to support that.

>but even weed triggers things
>things
>but I’ve witnessed no evidence to support that.

I don't think you've looked very hard considering how you talk about about how weed can trigger "things" that's the scientific literacy of grandma who overheard something on the mid-day talk show TV program while fixing herself a snack and not really paying any attention.

It's also bullshit of you to be saying that psychedelics do this and that but not this and not that when you haven't experienced any yourself.

Weed triggers nervous breakdowns in a percentage of the population and probably always will. That’s a risk users take. Most nervous breakdowns aren’t fully recoverable, so that makes it a big deal. Pick at my wording all you want.

Also, a person can know about what a drug does without taking it. Doctors don’t go to med school and take very drug they will prescribe to try and feel out the effects. Also notice how a person can make an informed decision not to do recreational drugs, even though it might offend someone.

>Weed triggers nervous breakdowns in a percentage of the population and probably always will. That’s a risk users take. Most nervous breakdowns aren’t fully recoverable, so that makes it a big deal. Pick at my wording all you want.

It doesn't.

>Also, a person can know about what a drug does without taking it. Doctors don’t go to med school and take very drug they will prescribe to try and feel out the effects. Also notice how a person can make an informed decision not to do recreational drugs, even though it might offend someone.

You are very obviously not a doctor.

>No it doesn’t.
So now you are the one who is uninformed or you are lying. If your mind is really expanded, you’ll consider for a moment that I might be right about that. But rarely do people go searching for info that contradicts their biases, psychedelic user or not.

>You’re very obviously not a doctor.
All my points still stand because I never claimed to be coming from a place of medical expertise. I’ll say again it would absurd if someone, from a strictly educational standpoint, started just taking the drugs to try and feel out what the effects are.

>So now you are the one who is uninformed or you are lying. If your mind is really expanded, you’ll consider for a moment that I might be right about that. But rarely do people go searching for info that contradicts their biases, psychedelic user or not.

Cannabis may awaken latent scizophrenia, especially in young users who are heavy smokers.

That much is true.

So now where do you think you read that "Weed triggers nervous breakdowns in a percentage of the population and probably always will"? Where is that from? Is it a review of studies?

>All my points still stand because I never claimed to be coming from a place of medical expertise

You don't seem to have knowledge of the subject at all.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2917792/
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22378193/

I don’t know if you’re aware, all it takes is a doctorate and getting through the peer review boards to get an article published. It can easily be full of shit, though these ones are legitimate because they’re discussing a real phenomenon you can ask the people who suffer from about. Two Google searches is good because that’s about what this convo is worth.

Also you should know that triggering a serious psychiatric disorder like Schozophrenia is not la di da. Many people have no clue they have a predisposition, and many would be fine at least for several decades if drugs or stress didn’t precipitate an episode. Get real.

>You don’t seem to have knowledge of the subject at all.
I do maaaaaan.

>ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2917792/

>Empirical work has revealed some intriguing, but as of yet not fully conclusive, findings

>ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22378193/
>We present a case series of 6 patients who developed persistent depersonalization disorder in adolescence after consuming cannabis.

yikes

That's why I asked if it was a review of studies. These are just a couple of studies.

The issue with studies isn't that they're full of shit, it's that there's always a study coming out after the next one that'll contradict the previous one.

To also be like "see! 6 teens got DPD! That means anyone can get it!" is disingenuous.

It's like those climate-change deniers that chime one random day in in the middle of january to be like "oh well whoops! What do we have here?! Snow in winter and it's very cold! So much for global warming!" You have to look at the body of data, not just pick and choose one study here and there.

>Many people have no clue they have a predisposition

It's genetic, so unless they're adopted they would know of their family's mental health.

>yikes
You’re a ridiculous white nigger. I know at least somewhat safe and what clearly isn’t. You can be a drug propagandist likely junkie all you want. Just know that it’s really harming the people who get triggered by these mind altering drugs. They should honestly be mad at degenrates like you who purposefully conceal the fact that there are risks. Fuck you.

Those are merely two studies, so if you think picking them apart (though they exactly support what I said) fully invalidates my point, then you’re an idiot.

>It’s genetic
You stupid nigger, I understand it’s genetic. Just because someone has a genetic predisposition towards something doesn’t mean it’s good when a drug triggers it. Moron.

And you should know that even though I’m mad and saying bad words, you’re far in the wrong here. Not only have you been nonsensical and dishonest, you minimized the suffering of people who now have serious conditions due to your precious recreational drugs you build your personality on.

>You’re a ridiculous white nigger.
>You stupid nigger
>Fuck you

hey man, tell us how you really feel why don't you, jeez

>Many studies of the relationship between cannabis use and mental illnesses such as depression and anxiety have suffered from methodological issues by not controlling for related factors.

>The few longitudinal studies that have been conducted have mixed findings.

>A 2014 review of the existing research concluded that using cannabis placed an individual at moderate risk of developing depression.

>Unfortunately it was not within the scope of the research to determine if cannabis use wascausing depression or if the relationship instead reflects the association between cannabis use and social problems. Cannabis use is associated with other factors that increase risk of depression such as school dropout and unemployment.

>The relationship between cannabis use and anxiety is also complex. Many people use cannabis for its euphoric and relaxing effects. But some people also experience feelings of anxiety or paranoia when intoxicated. As such, cannabis could be used to relieve anxiety or stress for some while causing others to feel anxious.

>A 2014 review of the available research concluded that using cannabis placed an individual at a small risk of developing anxiety. But the authors noted that while the weight of evidence supported the coexistence of cannabis use and anxiety, there was relatively little evidence to suggest that cannabis caused anxiety.

1/2

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2/2
>Not included in these previous reviews of depression and anxiety disorders were two recent investigations of cannabis use in the United States using data from 2001-2002 and 2004-2005. These included a host of variables such as demographic status and family environment.

>Each found a significant association between cannabis use and the onset of depression and anxiety disorders. But this association was no longer significant when considering the impact of the included variables.

>Clearly, the relationship between cannabis use and depression and anxiety disorders is complex and involves the individual’s reasons for cannabis use and external situations. That is, cannabis may be

ndarc.med.unsw.edu.au/blog/does-cannabis-cause-mental-illness

In other words, no conclusive evidence that marijuana directly causes anxiety disorders. Some studies show a link between the two but that's true of just about anything

sniff your own butt

you know that the internet and the computer is way worse for your health right?

Is your name Peanut Butter by chance?

You just cop out and say that because genetics play a role, the drug that precipitated the episode is somehow safe. Again, and try to think about this, someone who has a “dormant” mental illness should not do anything to “bring it out.”

If a person is functioning, smokes weed, then immediately has an episode that throws them into dysfunction, how is that desirable? How is that not a sign that the drug has real risks? These questions rhetorical.

Now if you would stop pretending that knowledge is having more tabs open in NCBI and fucking copy/pasting them without even elaborating on how they support your point or how they refute the other person’s point, then you’re an idjut.

Have a good night.

Being sedentary and accomplishing nothing ever is bad for health, yeah. I guess you and I are gonna die. Anyway, a good night.

>You just cop out and say that because genetics play a role,

how is it a cop out when it's the actual fact

like if you got a history of type 2 diabetes in your family, obviously don't be sitting around eating cakes and candy all day long. Same thing with weed.

> How is that not a sign that the drug has real risks? These questions rhetorical.

You can't be talking about real risks in a hypothetical situation.

You’re saying if someone does acid and then develops Schizophrenia, it’s their fault because it runs in their family?

It's certainly not the acid's fault since LSD doesn't cause or trigger schizophrenia

You just said drugs trigger mental disorders.

I didn't say that anywhere

Well it’s a known fact except w druggos. Of course there are some cool people who use drugs but at least acknowldege there are risks. Other people are like in high school and need to validate themselves by asserting that their drug habit is just perfect and really progressive.

>Cannabis may awaken latent scizophrenia, especially in young users who are heavy smokers.

That's all I said.

Psychedelics don't cause or trigger schizophrenia, they in fact have potential to treat it.

LSD certainly can. Stimulants can too.

>LSD certainly can. Stimulants can too.
[citation needed]

I heard ithat it was that dude's birthday today. Is that why you are using it?

nhs.uk/conditions/schizophrenia/causes/
>Drugs don't directly cause schizophrenia, but studies have shown drug misuse increases the risk of developing schizophrenia or a similar illness.
>Certain drugs, particularly cannabis, cocaine, LSD or amphetamines, may trigger symptoms of schizophrenia in people who are susceptible.
>Using amphetamines or cocaine can lead to psychosis, and can cause a relapse in people recovering from an earlier episode.
>Three major studies have shown teenagers under 15 who use cannabis regularly, especially "skunk" and other more potent forms of the drug, are up to four times more likely to develop schizophrenia by the age of 26.

Just propaganda, though. You know, the man and shit.

No I've been posting him for days now. He's perfect for like 90% of the stuff that gets posted on this board

LSD was shown to have potential to actually treat scizophrenia
maps.org/news-letters/v07n3/07318fis.html
There was also a single patient who was successfully treated.
maps.org/news-letters/v09n2/09211fis.html

Further studies:
>Psychedelics not linked to mental health problems or suicidal behavior: A population study
journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0269881114568039

>Classic psychedelic use is associated with reduced psychological distress and suicidality in the United States adult population
journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0269881114565653

We already established that heavy cannabis use as a teenager can awaken latent schizophrenia.

He is. I've been lurking and laughing with you all day. Keep up the good work. I'll be on your side. Whatever side it is.

I realized that vader means father when i was tripping. I know thats old news now. But that was a little epiphany.

As does LSD.

Thanks man, but I don't have a side. Obviously drugs especially psychedelics that didn't exist or weren't discovered until a few decades ago are still a mystery. There's some things that we know and plenty more that we don't know. but for people in this thread to be like IF YOU DO ONE DRUG YOU WILL LITERALLY GO INSANE AND NEVER RECOVER is just some bullshit

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>may trigger symptoms of schizophrenia

That's not the same thing. "symptoms of schizophrenia" is basically just a normal acid trip. it doesn't actually trigger the disease.

You can have symptoms of a disease, without actually having it.

Yeah, you guys can moderate what I’m saying. That’s a good thing.