How do I date as an ugly as shit femanon? I get done all I can really. I do all the skin care, I've gotten fit...

Find an ugly as shit man or somebody who wants to date you for your personality or some reason at all lol.

> got s bf in the end
Proof

She’s from Russia and I strongly doubt she’ll find anyone ever

Is this you?

I've done nothing. Thats fair. I volunteer and work, and I'm otherwise a somewhat active individual... So, it wasn't explicitly impossible for someone to approach me. But I see your point. That said, I'm not sure if I'm capable of taking concrete steps to get a gf or bf.

I just feel terrified to put myself out there. Like I don't know if I can muster up the courage to post a photo.

So... let's go along with the possibility that I'm not horrifically ugly, how do I get over a disorder that tells me I'm horrifically ugly?

Slowly.
Cognitive therapy helps.
Or get guys you can talk to and practice on.
I

Hi, I am ugly dude 22 yo. I am virgin(obviously) and I have given up on life. Tbh after I gave up I felt very content with myself, almost like zen. I just don't really need people in my life.

It may not work for you, but it's possible you would be content too.

You can ask me anything

As funny as that would be, no. I work as a data analyst.

My biggest issues are;

1. Wrinkles/Acne, Ive done the skin care. The next step is a dermatologist but I don't think the wrinkles are treatable in my budget.

2. Large Nose: It's 5k for a nose job on average, for reference.

3. My porportions are just... off. Like not good. I don't know I am capable of posting a photo. I barely feel comfortable being seen by close friends.

OP, I'm a favela Chad that need money to pay his bills.
If you want I can help you, no bullshit, no larp, no lies.
I dont ask a lot, like $20 daily and I will be 8/hour atleast on Telegram to help and support you.

You can do 3 days as trial, deal?

Lets do a deal, I'm used to help anons from biz to change their lifes. I'm not kidding, I really need it and if I dont find a way I will have to prostitute myself again and I just sleep all day and night and feel dirty when I do it.

Dancing lessons, football match, going to EVO or any vidia tournament, gym, pool, concert, all these places are FULL of boys. All you need to know is how to force dude to innitiate flirting sequence on you (uninterrupted eye contact, stare at him like he is a cake and when he looks back at you, smile at him).

Or you know, just make okcupid account. Btw notice how anons are already hitting on you. I bet if you post something like diacord link, you will get plenty of dick pics and maybe even few devent proposals...

Do you have fucked up teeth?

Best place to look is the internet

There really are men out there lonely and depressed enough to take pretty much any woman, I know as I am one of them

No... I don't think so.... Maybe? I don't know.

Like looking at them now maybe something is off in the coloration.

>I work as a data analyst

Hey twinsies

I guarantee you it's just in your head and you're being ridiculously stupid.

You're overthinking and not confident.

I think if I were to post a picture of myself all of the men hitting me here would stop rather suddenly.

But... Idk now. I read that body dysmorphia link that other user posted and it hit a bit close to home.

Go to .
> I've gotten fit
then you aren't ugly. You're projecting. Men aren't shallow like women are.
>Ive seen god knows how many makeup videos
Remember less is more.
>I've tried to set up a dating profile but I can't take a single selfie that I don't immediately delete.
Just use your facebook profile pic or something. Again you just need something to show men that you aren't fat.
All you need to do is have reasonable standards, and if you really want to impress men take some initiative. It's rare for women to message the guy first, or ask for his number. Maybe get some hobbies too so you can seem interesting, whether sports or vidya or hiking or lifting or whatever.
But the important thing is, even an "ugly" woman who isn't fat is still going to be better off than 9/10 men.

Attached: OKC men rate women.png (503x644, 23K)

Botox and nose jobs are unattractive.

Well, you dont even replied me, so take this redpill because I will never offer help to someone who ignored me anymore.

You can do dozens of this posts daily, nobody here care and nobody will give you a solution for real, the guys that go further just wanna a easy one night stand because well.. they are mentally damaged.

I offered you legit help, not bullshit, I have acess to psychiatricians, terapeuts, students and all sort of people and I know what I say.

Save money and go to a "visagist", they are professionals that study to maximize your looks, they are usually gay s they will talk truth, hear their opinion and start maing your looks and maybe developing some normal people hobbies and activities.

She probably just want a chad.

I don't have a facebook. I've actually deleted every photo I have of myself that I have access to.

My BMI is 21.3, so I guess I'm not fat?

I don't reply to you because I don't want to pay $20 for some life coach. I'm sorry.

Won't know until you try, just go on a /soc/ rate thread if you want some brutal honesty. Regardless, like previous user said there are anons here lining up just to comfort you and ready to spam your discord with hard pp so make of that what you will.

Either post a picture or stop crying about your looks. No one gives a shit.

You could just say "I am not interested", its simple and any human (normal) is able to do it, that is one of the reason you became bitter and bitter, you think to go shady/rogue is the same of being respectfull and it isnt.
You made me waste time and mocked me.
If you were part of any social circle I had I would make sure you would get evicted, such as any other Chad would do because you cant take actions.

Stop being a girl, BECOME A FUCKING WOMAN.

Stop swearing. It puts you into another class. I turn 180 the moment I hear a woman swear.

I mean, Im aware that I can flood my inbox with dick pics, and probably get a one night stand if I went to a poorly lit bar. But that isn't really what I'm after.

No I'm not looking for a chad, or whatever other names you have for men you dislike. Honestly, a human shaped person that cared for my well-being at this moment would be great. Guy, girl, someone that just was willing to cuddle would be reaching my limbo standards.

Maybe... I should see a counselor for that dysmorphia thing... It sounds familiar.

I told you fucking sicko far from reality:
Go to a fucking visagist, a fucking physchiatrician and just fix your external holes because internally you still need a reality shock.

You are full with problems, nobody like fucking problems, people like good things and solutions, stop to being a cry little girl "oh mommy the cool boy dont wanna sit with me on lunch time ;(" and search for professional help and become a woman.

Anytime I see your posts I'm gonna mock you because you mocked me!

>Maybe... I should see a counselor for that dysmorphia thing... It sounds familiar.

Yes that would be wise. Also trust me when I say there are men who'd love and care for you even if you were as ugly as you say you are, uglier even, so it really is a non-issue. Honestly the only thing I gather from you is that you're probably not some heinous sight but just someone who is as stupid and insecure as you think you are ugly.

I did not mean to mock you, and I apologise for making you feel bad. I hope you find a way to support yourself soon, and I legitimately wish the best for you.

I think I will see a psychologist covered by my insurance, thank you for the advice.

Dude you have problems? She already said she dont wanna ugly ones.

Well, if you need help feel free to hit me, I do it for free because I'm a human being.

Sorry if I offended you, sometimes I get testosterone rage, but I'm a good guy at the end.

my telegram: brazilianon

Take care, wish you find happiness!

That's fair. I am very insecure. I'm not sure if I'm comfortable being called stupid, but I probably should have seen it coming when I started this thread without being able to post a photo.

Regardless I think it's helped. Ill cancel the dermatologist and look for a counselor. Sorry for bothering you.

lower your standards to someone on your own level

Solid advice. This is your ticket to landing chad, seducing him while he's drunk and getting knocked up by him.

How can a nose job be unattractive unless it's botched? Do you think left looks better than the right?

Attached: 73920a1933a9d7056ea0306beb446d97.jpg (733x488, 50K)

>Ill cancel the dermatologist and look for a counselor
Good luck, it will help a lot. Being a tad mean because I'm just saying it like it is.

I'm not either of the ugly or depressed anons above. Hope you get out of your shithole Brazil user, God knows I'm trying to get out of mine (Trinidad).

Attached: umu.jpg (124x123, 6K)

>apologizing on Jow Forums of all places
Get your head set straight before you cut up your face because you can't deal with how you look.

I'll be opening some channels soon (youtube, instagram, etc) I am known in some places and I will post unique content (favela POV, touristical places etc).

So if you want to stay in contact feel free my telegram is : brazilianon,if I know any online job or income I share with you.

Being ugly as a girl, doesn't even matter.
Just be interesting. If you can hold a conversation about something, like a hobby that you share with a guy, how you look won't even matter.
I've fallen for girls that my friends would call 'goblins' and I honestly didn't even care about what they looked like.
Usually though, once a girl that thinks she's ugly gets that confidence boost and realises her looks aren't a barrier to dating hotter, richer guys I get dumped. But that's just how it goes these days.

I try to be nice. But you're right, I should try to get to the point I can at least post a photo on the internet before talking about surgery.

Is okay user, I'm getting my degree and will be working abroad soon enough, I'm in the same field as OP and I have experience with how insecure people are here. I wish you all the best though, it must be hard fucking for a living when the rest of us do it for fun.

Attached: moon2good.png (28x28, 3K)

I'm sorry to hear that user. I'm sure you should have meant a lot to those girls, and someday you'll find one that appreciates you.

I should probably take my own advice here though.

If you want my advice, just do your best with what you have. Don't stress about not being the prettiest girl on the room.
Just be the most real.
Because so many girls are fucking fake these days. If you really are ugly, at least you get your flaws out of the way before you've even spoken to a guy.
You don't have anything to hide and if they thought you weren't worth dating they probably wouldn't keep talking to you past seeing what you look like.
So don't worry about it as much.

I have hobbies and interests... I'm just not sure if anyone will bother asking me about them when I look... well, if I look the way I feel that I do.

But... I can try to start putting myself more out there.

aight so this thread is this many replies and this OP still hasnt posted pics of herself or tits or gtfo

so this is just another example of sad pathetic virgins buying the larp by some guy and thinking talking to "her" will do anything

aight op post up with timestamp or this is just another shitty ass male playing female larp

Trust me, if you could see some of the girls my friends have married you wouldn't even feel ugly anymore.
And that's after they made fun of me for dating girls that I didn't even think were ugly.
It really doesn't matter to most guys that much beyond the initial attraction part. And if you're ugly you filter it the douches that do care about looks automatically, saving yourself a lot of time dating losers.
So don't worry about it.

Sadly some anons think they will convince and find someone to bond with magically through an Tailandese cartoon board.

thats why rules like tits or gtfo exist. all "she's" done is go im an uggo grill and all these eternal virgins of the never laid brigade come outta hiding with their delusions of landing m'lady.
Every time every thread without fail.
And they never ask for proof or more importantly demand it because most are single mom raised soi that think you respect m'lady never disrespect m'lady and other stuff that has them virgins

so OP post with timestamp your face (and tits) or gtfo
to all the pathetic thirsties.. this is not how you get a gf or get love.

user, I'm a mildly attractive male (nice blue eyes, straight nose, good jaw), and I can barely get a girl due to mild anxiety.

It's really hard. I even date ugly girls, and you know what happens? I fuck up, and they leave.

You have no idea how easy you have it. If you had asked me if I wanted to fuck then I'm down, and I'd love you for it no matter how ugly. Guys are simple in that regard, you have it easy.

It's that easy. Jesus christ no wonder girls get laid so fucking often. A vagina is the pass to an easy life.

Attached: femanon room.jpg (1000x1000, 309K)

>still no picture proving she's ugly and not a larping basementneet

>It's that easy. Jesus christ no wonder girls get laid so fucking often. A vagina is the pass to an easy life.

is tru

Get on that app and take a selfie that you think is decent. Doesn't have to be your 100%. And see what happens? I had a similar situation, horrible self esteem and all. And an app worked out for me pretty well.

>how do I get over a disorder that tells me I'm horrifically ugly?

see , once you start getting positive attention from guys your self esteem will increase and you'll start to see your good sides. Happened to me.

>Acne
What do you eat? My skin has really cleared up once I quit all fast foods and sweets.
> Large Nose
That's not the end of the world. Just find a guy with an even bigger nose. (Are you jewish?)
>My porportions are just... off
Elaborate.

post a pic lol i dont care what u have to say

>Ctrl+F for "Mewing"
>No Results

wtf though
also pilates if your posture is decrepit

>How do I date as an ugly as shit femanon?
Just like anyone else. I'm not trying to sound harsh, I doubt you're that ugly. I don't have the best looks, nor am I that attractive body wise, I'm quite chubby, but I've dated 3 girls in my whole life. (am 20)
I either look 13, or look like a drug addict hobo. No in-between.

>I've tried to set up a dating profile but I can't take a single selfie that I don't immediately delete.
This happens to everyone with self-esteem problems.
I do that. My friends do that.

>Should I just buy cats and move on with my life? I feel crushed and completely dysfunctional as a person.
If you think this is a good idea, yes, but also, no.
The cat would be a constant reminder of something you don't want, obviously not the cat, but those thoughts in your mind, the ones you wrote down for us.

>I work and make ok money, so I can survive. It's just really really lonely. Like, suicidally so.
What is it exactly you're craving?
Physical contact? Do you just want someone to talk to?
Do you actually want to date someone? (I.E not just physical contact or someone to talk to, but something much deeper)
I know you said in "how do I date" but people often don't choose the right words in certain moments.

>The thing is, that no aspect of my face will ever get better. I am just out of options and sad.
It doesn't need to get better.
Someone will love you for who you are.
BUT if you don't love yourself, you're not out of options. You can always get plastic surgery, but that's expensive.

I know I probably seem like an asshole from what I wrote, and it isn't an excuse, but haven't slept in over 24h, it's currently 8am, am so utterly fucked, mentally and physically.
I hope OP can manage.
I'll be here for a few hours. Keep posting if you want to talk OP.

Online dating will still get you guys
redpilltalk.com/w/Juggernaut_Law

I know some REAL pigs. They are all in relationships. Some of the guys are quite handsome and normal. Most are ... yeah pretty fucking ugly, or weird looking and very stupid, usually the ugliness increases inline with intellect, but occasionally something throws a curve ball, like kind of smart, kind of good looking, but really short.

The only thing is, with these girls while they have distinctive and strange features, they have really good personalities? They are also clean and tidy. Yeah one has a huge nose and jutting forehead and looks like a fucking cave troll, but her teeth are straight and white, her hair is perfect and shiny, her posture is good and she dresses cute. The key seems to be no balding, no broken/dead/missing teeth, no bad breath, milky eyes, giant facial scars/disfigurements, bad/crippled posture etc.

Like you can be 6'8" and look like andre the giant, but decent hair cut, make up, nice clothes, some handsome manlet will take you. Or some handsome tall dude who might slur his words a little, but happen to have learning difficulties.

I'm pretty ugly but I have a great body so guys are always willing. When guys call you beautiful is means they want to fuck, you'll never hear those compliments when you are wearing a winter jacket or lose clothes, only when you wear tight or girly clothes.

Even the worst face if you add some mascara and lipstick and have great hair and a sexy body, there are tons of guys willing.

Is that a deal-breaker for guys?

>I either look 13, or look like a drug addict hobo. No in-between.

Mr.Rapzion is that you?

>A vagina is the pass to an easy life.

>gets paid less
>if bad education, the ammount of accessible jobs is greatly reduced because
>physically weaker by default
>genitalias defective by default, keeps leaking for 50 years, has to go to service regularly
>needs to take extensive care of their looks, otherwise they're frowned upon as weird (meanwhile guy can just put on pants, shirt and deodorant in the morning within 5 minutes and he's all ok ready to go)

^But wymyn have it easy because

>Males usually pay for dinner

The fuck is up with this meme? Male here btw.

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Alright, sorry, I was sleeping. I have to go off to work soon. I'll try to find one of these apps and post a selfie somewhere nicer than Jow Forums. Couple that with the counseling and well see where I can get in a month.

>Gets paid less
Because women on average work less. What do you mean if I work less, I get less money?!?! : usnews.com/news/articles/2013/06/24/charts-how-american-men-and-women-spend-their-time
>if bad education, the ammount of accessible jobs is greatly reduced because
This applies to literally everyone, dummy
>physically weaker by default
And thus get coddled way more. If a bad thing happens to a man (outside of possibly a loved one dying), they're told to "suck it up" while if bad things happen to a woman, they're told "everything will be okay"
>genitalias defective by default, keeps leaking for 50 years, has to go to service regularly
Vaginas work as nature intended, delusional freak. Plus penis maintenance isn't as simple as it looks either, as you should know. We have our own slew of problems like testicular torsion.
>needs to take extensive care of their looks, otherwise they're frowned upon as weird (meanwhile guy can just put on pants, shirt and deodorant in the morning within 5 minutes and he's all ok ready to go)
Maybe if the guy is only going to the gym or Walmart. Other than that, men have to take care of themselves both physically and mentally because women know they are desirable on the dating market, thus have a much higher standard. Women can be boring as fuck and below average looks and still land dates because they have vaginas. If a man is boring, he has no chance of getting a date unless he's in the top 5% prencentile of attractiveness. Even stated in this Reddit thread: women_have_unrealistic_views_of_how_men_look/

This isn't the 1800s, or some Middle Eastern country. Women have had it easier than men for quite a while now.

I just want someone to give a damn about me, and validate my worth as a person.

I know it's unhealthy, but I don't know how else to do this. My family is... not very happy with me after some drama, I have friends but like... im the last friend, if that makes sense. I'm no one's favorite.

So I guess dating, in some ways, is just a way to get someone to pick me. Like specifically identify me as someone worth being with.

Everyone talks about how easy it is for girls to get dates here, and maybe their right, but I don't know what I'm doing wrong.

There probably are a lot of self esteem issues at play, and those probably play a role in me not doing great friends wise either.

But Im going to be late for work if I keep replying, so I'm heading out.

Thanks for talking to me everyone, I do feel a bit better, thinking maybe this is all in my head.

>Stop swearing. It puts you into another class. I turn 180 the moment I hear a woman swear.
This.
First time I agree with one of your posts

If you need someone to validate you as a person, you can barely be called a person.
If you can't stand yourself and cannot stand loneliness, that means you can't even find yourself interesting; and then you demand that from others?
Modern times create so many people incapable of reflection.

What do your tits and/or ass look like? You really only need a point of focus for a guy to be attracted to you.

>Because women on average work less. What do you mean if I work less, I get less money?!?! : usnews.com/news/articles/2013/06/24/charts-how-american-men-and-women-spend-their-time
Literally the he subheading explains why
>This applies to literally everyone, dummy
Happens more to women, dummy. Men generally have much easier time working out and building muscles, too.
>And thus get coddled way more. If a bad thing happens to a man (outside of possibly a loved one dying), they're told to "suck it up" while if bad things happen to a woman, they're told "everything will be okay"
Not happening where I live at least. Also men are naturally more mentally stable as well.
>Vaginas work as nature intended, delusional freak. Plus penis maintenance isn't as simple as it looks either, as you should know. We have our own slew of problems like testicular torsion.
I'm not saying it doesn't work as intended, I'm just saying it's a massive burden of physical and mental pain. Also I haven't been to urologist in last ~7 or 8 years. Meanwhile women needs to attend gynecologist regularly.
>Maybe if the guy is only going to the gym or Walmart. Other than that, men have to take care of themselves both physically and mentally because women know they are desirable on the dating market
I study 5th year of college and what I typed before is more or less my morning routine since I shower before going to bed. Also the implication that men are constantly on the dating market is plain silly.

>male here btw

Yeah, nah.

1) Open your legs.
2) select the most attractive guy from the horde

>Happens more to women, dummy. Men generally have much easier time working out and building muscles, too.
That's true. We're stronger by far, 50% more upper body muscle generally. More testosterone. Every time I see a woman lifting weights I think how weak they are, and how easily they would be to overpower.
>Not happening where I live at least. Also men are naturally more mentally stable as well.
To a degree. We must be stable because that's how we get status, but men have feelings too. If a man is even slightly unstable, tough luck, nobody likes you.
>Meanwhile women needs to attend gynecologist regularly.
Not a woman so don't know how often they go. I've never gone to one.
>...more or less my morning routine...
Same.
>...since I shower before going to bed...
I do too, just out of curiosity, what's your reason? Mine's to avoid freshly showered/shaven skin exposed to the outside.

What kind of app?

>what's your reason?
Guess I was just raised this way and now I'd have troubles falling asleep without taking a shower. It makes sense though because you don't sweat that much and get dirty in other ways like you do throughout the day, so it combines both a) still being sorta clean in the morning and b) not taking the dirt into the bed, so you don't have to change the sheets so often.

Also the feeling of taking a hot shower after a hard day and tucking into freshly changed bed before having a day off, one of the reasons to live.

Attached: 4W3i2hguUU5qcP6E9HKrgxHmnqJmu2msx5ZVgs1aDskP4AZYGh4.png (640x480, 432K)

It is though.
Just look at the statistics of male suicide and how men make up the majority of homeless people, or how men make up 93% of work accidents and deaths, yet no one gives a fuck. And bitches like you are making it worse, you'd probably kill yourself the first day if you had to be an average guy and realize how no one pays you attention.

>Also the feeling of taking a hot shower after a hard day and tucking into freshly changed bed before having a day off, one of the reasons to live.
You must have a really boring life if that's one of your highlights, you pathetic wagecuck

>you'd probably kill yourself the first day if you had to be an average guy and realize how no one pays you attention.
I've worked for some time in oil recycle plant which looked close to pic related and I couldn't get the smell off for several days after leaving. Maybe I've never realized how no one pays attention because I've never seeked one.

>men make up 93% of work accidents and deaths
Surprisingly enough in physically difficult jobs you're more likely to get injured.

>, yet no one gives a fuck.
The work safety regulations are getting more strict all the time

>men make up the majority of homeless people
Probably only good point there but it has its reasoning, too - men have much higher 'survivability' on the street so it's obvious they're less protected in that area

>Just look at the statistics of male suicide and how men make up the majority
Best one yet - women are three times more likely to attempt it you walnut.

Attached: 004206969.jpg (640x480, 81K)

>Enjoying little gifts of life makes you a wagecuck

ok thanks for the input

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Imagine being so seething you can't enjoy the little things.
Hug from me user, it'll get better.

Attached: the reason.jpg (640x426, 78K)

About the 3 times more to attempt it men are more likely to suceed 2 different things

It can be kind of cute in a weird way

>gets paid less
The wage gap is within the margin of error when you adjust for differences in Male and female career choices and lifestyle choices
>if bad education, the ammount of accessible jobs is greatly reduced because
>physically weaker by default
Somewhat true but a bit of an overstatement. We live in a post industrial society if you're in the western world so most jobs that don't require a higher education are not physically demanding enough that most women wouldn't be able to do. Besides, even for traditional industrial jobs like construction, coal mining and factory work, how many women do you think are actually having any desire to apply for in the first place?
>genitalias defective by default, keeps leaking for 50 years, has to go to service regularly
kek, I'll give you that one

>needs to take extensive care of their looks, otherwise they're frowned upon as weird (meanwhile guy can just put on pants, shirt and deodorant in the morning within 5 minutes and he's all ok ready to go)
Now you're talking about societal expectations and you can argue that in the post modern world a lot of these ridiculous standards or beauty are applied to men as well.
Does this sound familiar?
>just be confident bro
>have money and a nice car
>if you don't have a job making at least 50k by the time you're 30 you're a loser
get frustrated and try to complain or get emotional about something?
>just be a man and suck it up
There are ridiculous societal expectations of both genders that only create negativity and hostility

be authentic, tell you browse Jow Forums on your tinder bio and i promise you get matches. in my mind a geek girl that is 6 turn to 8 and and 8 that is shallow turns to 6

If you're really desperate, there are surgeries. But that aside, you can always make do the way women always did - make up for your shortcomings in other regards. Dedication, fun, magnetic personality, wit, being a person around whom guys would like to be.
As anons already said, you have it easier as a girl in that just ona ccount of being a girl you will always have chance with some guys. Now it's a matter of reinforcing your strengths while minizing and damage controlling your flaws when meeting new ones.

I have a few nerdy interests, like DnD and video games, I can put those up on any dating profile I make.

I don't know how to assess my personality. Tbh I'm not sure if I can trust my assessment of that either. I've had friends throughout my life, but I often worry that I don't mean much to them.

Regardless I get your message, I think I just need to be more social, get out more, that sort of thing.

>tfw no homely nerdy Jow Forums gf
No idea how to find these women

You defo don't want us. Our max rating is 6

So what's wrong with that? You should stop using that dumb rating scheme anyways. You can't fit someone's attractiveness in numbers like that. I've been into girls I heard other guys call ugly.

I cannot assess your personality for you either, user. We're strangers. What I type is purely on the basis of what you gave me.
Either way, yes, part of it is letting people get to know you and show them things to appreciate so they have something to regard you by beside those looks you struggle with. But another important thing is, again, to work on yourself to be what those people need. You can't be the sexiest model? Be the most understanding and balanced companion, the most trustworthy and devoted lover, the most dependable and fun friend. Even if you're pretty much broken shit, you have some good traits or potential you can polish and some ways to work on stuff you're lacking in (a thing you seem to be already doing which is praiseworthy all in itself).

Not but for many lonely guys around looks indeed won't be most important if you also aren't fucked up and a bitch in all the other ways or at the very elast work seriously and try to improve. The important part is for you to reach out without provoking waves of desperates and their thirst and being able to notice things of value in those others as well rather than going just for looks/rating or overall convenience.