My boyfriend struggles with toxic masculinity and I want to help...

This right here.
>"Men should feel free to be open about their emotions!"
>"Oh does the widdle man have a pwobwem? Oh how absolutely saaaad!"
Same fucking people. Women, even the ones who claim to be against toxic masculinity, will lose respect for any man that dares to be emotionally vulnerable.

If he doesn't think there's something broken, don't tell him to fix it.
I've been on the receiving end of this exact situation. My ex belittled in that way, basically saying that every problem I suffer from was society's fault. That's like treating someone like a little child. And it pissed me off to no end, especially because she'd never stop pushing that on me. Chose to let her have her own opinion bit that wasn't enough for her and she broke up.
Just accept that he has a different opinion than you, there's plenty of other things you can agree on in a relationship. And whatever you do, don't let this thing define your relationship.

>toxic masculinity

Attached: 2C39CFA8-9737-4AB2-9753-11059D509979.jpg (640x640, 55K)

On your knees and suck his dick. Thats the best you can do.

Stop calling masculinity toxic. It is part of who he is, don't say he is poison to be around, that is mean.

If you want him to deal with certain issues, be specific. You can do a lot of good here if you go in with the mindset you want to help him.
Throwing terms like toxic masculinity around comes from an ideology that hates men and he is clearly getting ready to defend himself as he sees the attack coming.

Honestly you just have to be very open towards him and non-judgemental, just give him the space to be himself and he will open in his own time.

>If he doesn't think there's something broken, don't tell him to fix it
Came to post this. What you think is "trying to help", he thinks is controlling. You need to learn how to deal with people better. There are ways of suggesting things that aren't telling the person what to do or suggesting a course of action for them directly. In prideful individuals, such techniques are crucial.

Damn right. Men and women do not express their feelings and concerns in the same way. He needs a therapist if there's real issues with outbursts

>toxic masculinity
Anyone who claims to know anything about men and masculinity wouldn't be retarded enough to actually use this loaded phrase because they should know how it's received. You're just asking for an argument. The worst part of "toxic masculinity" is that most of the behaviours described are reinforced by women not men. I've known many different types of guys throughout my life and I can't think of a single one who ever judged or encouraged these weird standards feminists have devised.

Attached: 1565836336702.jpg (1000x1000, 123K)

It is the same as when Peterson realized he didn't have to defend that most of his youtube views came from men. Being male isn't a bad thing, stop framing it that way. Don't apologise because men like your advice and don't call their masculinity toxic. The GF doesn't want a weak man, of course he cares about not being weak.

>The catch is that women are the worst perpetrators.
That's the opposite of true. The amount of suffering males inflict on each other for the crime of not being masculine enough is incalculable compared to women. As I recall it wasn't a gang of women kicking the shit of of me at school and calling me a pussy and it wasn't my mom yelling in my face and telling me to stop crying like a little girl. Its men. People like my father. Women making fun of men for opening up to them about emotional issues is an incel myth perpetuated by dudes who haven't been in relationships before. Additionally, if you're dating a woman who is so emotionally repressed that she feels disgusted by her parter having feelings then you've chosen to date a terrible human being. This is not the norm in the slightest.

Imagine entirely shutting down your brain and refusing to entertain thoughts or ideas simply because the phrase used to describe it rustles your jimmies.

Imagine coming up with a phrase that does exactly the opposite of what you want and doubling down by insisting that you're trying to help people but they absolutely must accept said phrase. True strategic genius.

Not all masculinity is toxic. That's not what OP was saying in the slightest. The culture of denigrating men and labeling them as weak for needing mental/emotional support is what is toxic. I mean, its the reason men are so much more prone to suicide. I'm not sure how a reasonable person could think that shaming men for needing help is a positive thing. You framing his dysfunction as "not wanting to be weak" is ironically a perfect example of toxic masculinity - validating damaging and negative behavior so long as it preserves the image of being "manly" enough. Being manly isn't worth much if you kill yourself from untreated depression, user.

Imagine believing that other people's insanely thin skin and inability to react to concepts that make them uncomfortable with anything other than knee-jerk hissy fits is your responsibility to fix.

>"I don't like the words you used to describe this totally valid thing. I'm going to stop listening until you come up with a better way to convince me to not be a sniveling cry baby."

really activates the almonds

I'm just saying you people are so retarded that you picked a phrase that does exactly the opposite of what it was intended to do. Don't pretend a phrase that angers many men is actually meant to help them because that just shows you're as dumb as shit. The fact that people like you react more to their reactions and continue to insist they accept it shows it was never coined to try and help men, it's just another way to control them.

Here's the thing sweaty, if you want to convince someone of a concept doubling down and saying "nuh uh you're just stupid for not accepting what I say" is the most childish strategy imaginable.

>I'm just saying you people are so retarded that you picked a phrase that does exactly the opposite of what it was intended to do.
I'm just saying that dismissing an entire concept as invalid because the two words used to describe it makes you mad is childish and idiotic.

>Don't pretend a phrase that angers many men is actually meant to help them because that just shows you're as dumb as shit.
Since when has how much something angers someone been a valid way to measure how valid it is? Your argument is that it isn't valid because it makes you angry but that makes zero logical sense. Maybe it isn't other people's responsibility to convince you to stop thinking with your knee-jerk emotions and use your brain instead. Maybe your habit of throwing hissy fits at words is your responsibility and nobody else's.

You sound like an enormous pussy.

But it is a double bind when those kind of qualities are EXACTLY what make women attracted to men, though. Extreme independence, solving shit by yourself, being the emotional rock of the relationship, etcetera.

Both sexes shame men and force men into these gender roles, women do it by only liking men who do that and men do it by shaming any men who acts outside of those standards. But at the end of the day it is what it is and noone gives a fuck about men's feelings.

>doubling down and saying "nuh uh you're just stupid for not accepting what I say"
Where did anybody say that? You're literally inventing shit to get angry about.

>if you want to convince someone of a concept
Listen, sweetie, I'm a man. I'm a man who grew up with a pretty toxic dad who did shit like hit us, force us to play sports, and yell at us for crying. Sometimes he would make us stand against the wall and force us to stay there until our faces didn't "look angry" anymore, literally forcing us to not show any emotion while he abused us. I had a front row seat to toxic masculinity. Its not some abstract concept I pulled out of my ass. I lived it and saw how it affected my brothers and I.

The point is I'm not super interested in convincing anybody to advocate for their own interests. If you want to get mad at buzzwords and refuse to engage in meaningful conversation because of it thats on you but lets not sit here and pretend like your shitty attitude is my responsibility to fix.

Did you miss the big OP post up the top because it seems you did. OP posted about using dumb shit like "toxic masculinity" even though she knows her bf shuts down as soon as he hears it. How fucking dumb is that? It's real fucking dumb. Sure you can say "it's not muh responsibility" but then why even try talking to someone about it? You retards are entirely self-defeating with your dumb insistence on using such a counterproductive phrase. Your whole spiel about it not being other people's responsibility makes no sense in the context of this thread.

>i'm not interested in convincing anybody but I'm going to keep posting anyway
wow okay, good stuff man.

>Abuse is being forced to play sports and standing against a wall
Toxic masculinity is made up by spoiled, pathetic faggots like yourself because your dad tried to instill into you discipline, and you didn't like it because you're a bitch.

Well, its a good thing my masculinity isn't threatened by some stranger on the internet calling me a pussy. I suppose if it was that would make me a pretty insecure person, wouldn't you think?

>But it is a double bind when those kind of qualities are EXACTLY what make women attracted to men, though.
Absolutely. It isn't problem solved by either exclusively men or women. Men who grow up with dysfunctional mothers seek dysfunctional women. Women who grow up with dysfunctional fathers seek dysfunctional men. There are TONS of women out there who grew up with tough as nails, shitty toxic dads who go after the same kind of guys, absolutely. What I am saying, however, is that the solution begins with men acknowledging this feature about themselves and creating an environment in which these traits aren't passed down to the next generation. Our sons won't have to grow up with that dysfunction if we build relationships and homes that don't perpetuate it.

>Both sexes shame men and force men into these gender roles
Absolutely, its everyone's responsibility to address, women included. Children grow up with traits from both of their parents. However, lets be honest, women are more the nurturing type than men are. They're far more likely to enable children to express themselves emotionally than men would. Regardless of that, the expectations that the sexes put on each other are often unfair and unrealistic and having a dialogue about that seems like a productive way to address it. The point is that boys learn how to be men from their fathers. Its gotta start there and work its way out.

>OP posted about using dumb shit like "toxic masculinity" even though she knows her bf shuts down as soon as he hears it. How fucking dumb is that?
Yeah, totally dumb. We should all just never engage in conversations that make us uncomfortable and give up as soon as something gets difficult.

>ou retards are entirely self-defeating with your dumb insistence on using such a counterproductive phrase.
I like how the only thing you people have any problem with is the phrase. You can't articulate any kind of argument why its inaccurate or why you disagree with it. As soon as you hear the words your brain shuts off and all you can do is reeeeee.

Eh. 3/10.

>Makes a post to make fun of some else for making a post
k sounds good dude

No when people go into convince someone of something it's not the same thing as both going in to an open conversation. The person doing the convincing has to be willing to say the right things to convince the other guy. You have to be willing to make some concessions. The other guy isn't interested in changing his mind, he loses nothing if you fail. If you won't accept this you'll never make any headway in changing peoples minds. Talking down to others is a great way to make them hate you and everything you have to say. You can do it if you want but don't ever expect people to accept your opinion because they won't.

addenum: what I just described is exactly why you and OP will never ever change anyone's mind.

Toxic masculinity is a stupid concept because there is no reason to assign a gender to a bunch of negative traits just because they're more common in men (mainly due to our different upbringings and societal especation) than women.

I'm pretty sure noone talks about #ToxicFeminity when pretty much anyone can think about a good bunch of negative traits that are more common in women.

If he doesn't see it broken, don't try to fix him.
If my GF shot these terms at me, I'd call her fucking mad. "Toxic masculinity" equals "You should behave more like a woman" in my mind.

All in all, a guy will not talk the same way women do. He will not cry, he probably won't break down and eat ice cream.

Women and men don't express this shit the same way. Get him to a therapist, get him some guy buddies.

Toxic femininity that would be sexist

>Toxic masculinity is made up by spoiled, pathetic faggots like yourself because your dad tried to instill into you discipline, and you didn't like it because you're a bitch.
Provides the definition of toxic masculinity by raging over it and using homophobic slurs instead of dealing with the fact his father probably mistreated him. It's not you're fault, user. It's not your fault.

My father is a fucking saint and any issues I have are the result of my mother.

Dude. Masculinity in general isn't toxic. There are toxic aspects to masculinity. Hence the term. It wasn't invented to disparage men like the right claim, but rather to call attention to the negative aspects of a narrow definition of "being a man". So many men end up an hero or in prison. It's not great.

And now that the term has failed so horribly in conveying what it's meant to mean it will surely be dropped for something more appropriate and effective! To insist on continuing to use it would be quite stupid.

Just thought about toxic femininity.

>superficial view of the world
>lack of responsibility
>leeching off partner at the expense of their well being
>incomprehensible emotional makeup, no willingness to explain one's feelings when mad and then say "it was nothing" after it was done
>mental toll on its surrounding

>You can't articulate any kind of argument why its inaccurate or why you disagree with it
The phrase assumes there is something inherently toxic about masculinity, and commonly is used suggesting that traits like toughness, and not wanting to be overtly emotional are inherently bad. Moreover, the ideas that come along with the phrase typically suggest that this can only be a fault of society, and not how such an individual wants to act.
Firstly, the idea that masculinity is inherently toxic is false and has no basis. There is also nothing inherently wrong with a man portraying himself as tough and resilient. Additionally, a lot of the time, men don't want to talk about their emotions, or there just isn't anything there to talk about, and there is nothing wrong with that (this is why OP's post is so bad, her bf does open up, but she still cries "toxic masculinity"). The people who use the term also want to blame everything on society, but most of the time, the problems are with the individual; this kind of mindset doesn't give people the opportunity to overcome adversity - since they blame everything on someone else - and so is ultimately worse. Men typically want to overcome a problem by themselves, and they become stronger for it, which is positive. The people pushing these ideas that toxic masculinity is real are generally pussies, in that they are incapable of overcoming adversity or solving problems, and they lack character.

Here's the actual definition which could have averted half the retardation in this thread if anyone had bothered to actually read it:

The concept of toxic masculinity is used in psychology and media discussions of masculinity to refer to certain cultural norms that are associated with harm to society and to men themselves. Traditional stereotypes of men as socially dominant, along with related traits such as misogyny and homophobia, can be considered "toxic" due in part to their promotion of violence, including sexual assault and domestic violence. The socialization of boys often normalizes violence, such as in the saying "boys will be boys" with regard to bullying and aggression.

Self-reliance and emotional repression are correlated with increased psychological problems in men such as depression, increased stress, and substance abuse. Toxic masculine traits are characteristic of the unspoken code of behavior among men in American prisons, where they exist in part as a response to the harsh conditions of prison life.

Those toxic aspects of masculinity have been selected for by women for hundreds of years.

Men and women are different, period.

Why didn't they call it something less provactive?

The people misunderstanding it are the stupid ones. It's here to stay because there exists a little something called intellectual progress were new concepts are created and misunderstood at first by backwater retards. It takes like one minute to read a fucking wiki article.

+1. As a guy, I second this.

Toxic masculinity is like failing an exam and blaming the school.

I failed my exam by 3 points. It was due to my own failure. Nothing else. I will practice and do better next time, but I won't shout "society" and I sure as fuck won't try to force anyone else to do shit for me.

Men overcome difficulties. It makes us stronger.

lol, don't pretend to be me, you faggot
I had perfectly good parents.
>It's not you're fault, user. It's not your fault.
This mindset is literally worse than any "toxic masculinity".

Here's a huge text paragraph about things I haven't experienced
Blah

Times are a changing. Women are far more attracted to charisma and unspoken dominance than a man who yells, rapes people, calls her a whore, gets into fights, and then kills himself.

They didn't anticipate right-wing pundits rallying their followers against the more educated left by saying "lol look at these onions cucks, they think being a man is bad now!!!!!1"

Here's the thing: They don't have to accept your poorly thought out terms and if you want them to then why would you not try make it more palatable? The answer is actually quite obvious, you're not interested in educating, you're interested in moral superiority. You don't actually want people to change their mind because if they thought the same as you those feelings of superiority wouldn't make any sense. You want people to be wrong so that you can look down on them. That's why you're more interested in calling others stupid than actually making a change.

Lol at that other guy. Yeah, I was mostly memeing man. But I feel it's possible your dad ingrained some not so great memes in your brain. There are aspects of masculinity that aren't great that are culturally inculcated, that's what toxic masculinity means. You can be as masculine as you want just don't rape, punch people, and get incarcerated, you know?

So the term essentially suggests that misogyny, homophobia, rape and domestic violence are inherent male traits. The majority of men don't exhibit these traits, and as a man, I don't appreciate being associated with them.
>The socialization of boys often normalizes violence
Fighting is fun for boys, so what? Also, in my opinion, it is a lot more damaging to repress that violence when they are young.
>Bullying
Bullying is going to happen regardless of whether it's physical or mental, but taking away physical fighting removes any chance for the victim to fight back, and in my opinion, (aside for extreme cases) the victim ends up worse off, emotionally.

>your dad ingrained some not so great memes in your brain
I assume you refer to the kind of "Quit being a whiny bitch" mindset? If that's the case then why do you automatically assume it is bad? If I'm honest, the bad aspects of my personality are my own fault, not my parents.
>You can be as masculine as you want just don't rape, punch people
So those traits have no bearing on how masculine you are, but they are are still masculine traits? I don't think it works like that.

So are you implying society pressures men to rape people and get into fights? Or that that is something men do because it's "in their nature"?

>your poorly thought out terms
It's not mine. I didn't come up with it
>and if you want them to then why would you not try make it more palatable?
It's an academic term from psychology. It made its way into public discourse through journalists appropriating the term and has become extremely controversial which was unexpected
>you're not interested in educating, you're interested in moral superiority.
No, I would like it very much if men delt with their psychological issues rather than shooting people and killing themselves
>You don't actually want people to change their mind because if they thought the same as you those feelings of superiority wouldn't make any sense. You want people to be wrong so that you can look down on them. That's why you're more interested in calling others stupid than actually making a change.
People are misunderstanding an academic term. You can understand it for what it actually means or join the "NOT ALL MEN!" crowd. Up to you.

Yeah the whole misogyny homophobia and intimidation thing is part of toxic masculinity. I get that you're probably playing it up as it's funny to shitpost and you seem like a good guy, but yeah that's what I was referring to.

Men rape and punch people a bazillion times more often than women, so yeah I regard those traits as masculine. I meant be as masculine as you want without engaging in that type of masculinity, which is regarded by us onion boys as toxic.

I believe it is a combination of nature and nurture. I think a culture of misogyny can lead to more frequent rapes and bigotry can lead to hate crimes and so forth. It is masculine in the sense that testosterone riden giga chads like ourselves are somewhat inclined towards violence to get our way and framing others as an outgroup and seeing women as semen recepicals, which isn't ideal.

>Muh academic term
Friendly reminder to all you retards that your precious academia is utterly riddled with Jewish SJW troglodytes who make up bullshit and then defend it by saying it's "academic"

On this website, nobody gives a fuck about your pathetic degree or what you 'learned' in women's studies class.

Attached: 804fc276088d421a5651134592601394ee1624a014adbc5b2ff2365e1dc23e16.jpg (970x545, 52K)

If men not showing emotions is bad, why do women invariably leave any man that does show his emotions?

t. Knuckle-dragging iron worker

>wall of text over being called a pussy

Lmao, what a fucking fag

t. self righteous jewniversity student who thinks they're smart for wasting a shitload of money to study in a high level indoctrination centre

Maybe when you get a bit older you'll realise that your intelligence isn't defined by your academic qualifications

Attached: 8c3d712c489569b6e1a324068c594edb4d0af0c39bf2b15dfa3ab15056ec8884.jpg (750x725, 103K)

>So the term essentially suggests that misogyny, homophobia, rape and domestic violence are inherent male traits.
No. As you said not all men are like that. It doesn't argue they are inherent otherwise critiquing them would be pointless as they couldn't be mitigated. But you only need to spend a hour on Jow Forums to realise all those things are rampant. And yes, the people articulating those ideas are usually men.

>The majority of men don't exhibit these traits, and as a man, I don't appreciate being associated with them.
You're not toxic then. The term isn't about you. Good work.
>The socialization of boys often normalizes violence
>Fighting is fun for boys, so what? Also, in my opinion, it is a lot more damaging to repress that violence when they are young.
"Stop being a faggot and just punch him in the head Billy!" Is the sort of thing it's referring to. Kids should play fight if they want to. Some kids don't want to and we shouldn't force them to as is the case with current conceptions of masculinity. Billy didn't want to punch Frank, so now the boys call him a little bitch. Not ideal. Saying fighting is fun for boys isn't necessarily true. Many boys would try to resolve the conflict or avoid the situation.

Don't worry guys the feminists won't be spared when DOTR comes

>Discredits psychology because Jews
Convincing you why what you said is retarded on nearly every level would take me a very long time because there's so much implicit retardation that I'd need to combat. I hope you come join us in the real world eventually. Being educated isn't a Jewish conspiracy

I'm very open emotionally with women. They dig it. It's not the same thing as being weak. You're allowed to explain how you feel

Stay mad, kike

Go watch some more Juden Peterstein and wipe your ass, faggot

Attached: 0e4cf5f07c0c7aad614436c37a97e4fb753bb55133125d696a701a5fe354814a.png (603x453, 242K)

I'm sorry you don't have the time money or inclination to educate yourself. Your life is probably a difficult one so I wish you all the best.

Are physics, chemistry, computer science, and engineering Jewish conspiracies also?

>Women making fun of men for opening up to them about emotional issues is an incel myth perpetuated by dudes who haven't been in relationships before.
Yes and no. They won't make fun of you to your face, but they're probably going to talk to their friends about it. They might laugh at you, maybe not. Depends on how much they respect you.

I can't seem to get the distinction quite right because I am always left after opening up at all

I think we are roughly on the same page, but I think the term "toxic masculinity" is very unhelpful, and is what is causing such a divide between people.

You're probably autistic and are opening up at the wrong time.

Probably. It's better to just keep these things inside and/or not be involved with women at all

>You're probably autistic
The kind of munchausen by proxy meme the label of autism has turned into needs to start being checked. If this needs to be said, it's entirely possible to not know when to say something and not be autistic. It's actually just being fucking human. 99.9999% of people experience awkwardness in their daily interactions. Some people have crazy high social intelligence but that shouldn't be the standard. The clumsy and graceless deserve to feel okay too as long as the intentions weren't cruel.

>The clumsy and graceless deserve to feel okay
Proof? I'm of the opinion that these people shouldn't breed so that the average social intelligence improves

Call it arrogance not toxic masculinity

Tfw when she tries to school you on toxic masculinity but then in bed she asks you to slap her hard and choke her and call her a whore while you fuck her in the ass.
>every
>single
>time

Op here, the people calling anyone who recognizes that the concept exists a pussy/cūck/soÿboy is exactly what I’m talking about.
I’m not saying masculinity is bad, and yeah there’s a lot of people who shame men for wanting to be masculine and that not ok.
But when someone is so dedicated to an idea of being a man that they restrict and repress themselves, that’s when I think it becomes toxic.
Toxic femininity happens to women too; I struggle with being assertive and speaking up because I was taught to avoid all conflict and keep everyone happy as much as possible.

Maybe rather than being dedicated to the idea of being a man, they are just like that, and they are not repressing themselves. Again, this is why so many dismiss it.

Honestly man, the term has been hijacked for political reasons. People are either aware of what it means and say things like "masculinity isn't toxic" when people using the term aren't claiming that it is, or they didn't take the time to read anything on the subject and articulate the knee-jerk reaction of masculinity isn't bad (we know, no serious is saying that) and then claim the left are trying to feminise everyone.

It's an academic term that doesn't seek to denigrate men in the slightest and is simply pointing to aspects of "maleness" (again not innate because it's referring to specific negative behaviour that can be prevented) which are readily apparent on Jow Forums, in crime statistics, probably at least some of your friends that are openly homophobic, misogynist, or racist and tragic mass shootings. Women aren't doing these things. That is toxic masculinity. Your brand of masculinity is commendable.

Preach

You're misunderstand what the OP is talking about. Calling it "toxic masculinity" brings up bullshit feminist ideas.
What the OP is talking about is shit like male mental health issues due to guys being discouraged from talking about it.

Women who actually contribute to the problem are the ones who encourage you to be emotionally vulnerable, then use that vulnerability to attack you later.

One I know was really good at respecting things I told her in good faith even after things turned sour between us, another used what I said to emotionally attack me every time she got upset.

Sure it's not a good idea but you can't help it
Try having a conversation with a black person by starting all sentences with NIGGER or a homosexual with "Listen here faggot".
Insulting someone and expecting them to listen to your words after that isn't that wise

You’re gonna leave him, I can already tell your relationship is dying. But before you call it quits, ask yourself if he tried changing you as much as you’re trying to change him?

''Toxic'' are one of the most overused cringy words that exists in the human language.

People would have been more likely to accept the concept if they called it literally anything else

Attached: 480e24f89b00a0bf2e5fcb42ffc79d09c0b05af2_hq.gif (320x237, 732K)

I used to have that problem and to some extent I still do but people will say it's in the biology of humans to make it desirable so Im screwed either way. I may as well accept weakness has no place in this world we live in and if I am Im fuked.

Harmful then?

overmasculinity maybe

Hypermasculinity is a common term to. As these men are overenacting typical masculine behavior traits. In reality they are weak and the opposite of a strong man. Blow a torch at them and they will throw a temper tantrum.

>Hypermasculinity is a common term to. As these men are overenacting typical masculine behavior traits. In reality they are weak and the opposite of a strong man. Blow a torch at them and they will throw a temper tantrum.

>i'm a strong independent woman who needs no man
>AAARRGGHHH HOW DARE YOU ASKING ME TO SMILE YOU MISOGYNIST PIG

There isn't much of a biological basis for this. This just a way people justify their bad behavior. In fact most people don't like hypermasculine men because they tend to be a constant threat to them. The constant ball breaking to prove that they are "alpha" just gets tiresome.