What exactly am I supposed to do if I'm 23 years old, a kissless dateless virgin...

>a kissless dateless virgin
If the number of women you sleep with is a factor of your self-worth (and you see sleeping with more women as a good thing), you're gonna have a bad time.

>If you like a girl just ask her casually and don't drop your spaghetti. Just a 'hey, you want to go see a movie, just you and me?'
user... I can't do that. I literally can't think of anything scarier to do socially than doing that.

You have to understand, I have NEVER asked a girl out on a date in 23 years. I came close a couple times when I was 16, but I used to do dumb shit back then like "confessing" to girls rather than asking them out, and guess what, I got rejected. It was miserable. Ever since I NEVER even do so much as express interest in girls. In fact, when I like a girl, I actually tend to do everything possible to hide my interest from them, such as never smiling at them and always looking at them with a steely glare if I do make eye contact. I do this because I'm terrified that if I show romantic interest and flirt, girls will think I'm creepy and will feel uncomfortable around me.

Most people try to avoid direct rejection. Because it sucks and makes both partys feel uncomfortable.

I get there you come from. You don't need to ask a girl out of nowhere. It's better to form some connection before. Look for signs of attraction, try to push boundaries with flirting, look if she reacts and initates stuffs. If it doesn't work at the earlier stages you can back off without any direct rejection.

And rejection feels a lot more uncomfortable for you than for her. It's just a thing you have to deal with from time to time. Most girls will try to do it in an indirect way if given the chance.

stay single.

>It's better to form some connection before.
How?

>Look for signs of attraction
I don't get any. Literally never has a girl at college ever shown any signs of attraction to me. Girls are always friendly to me, but nothing more. They never flirt with me.

>try to push boundaries with flirting
I don't know how to flirt.

>And rejection feels a lot more uncomfortable for you than for her
But that's part of what makes me so scared of it. I really don't want to make girls feel uncomfortable. I don't want to be one of those guys that girls feel awkward and uncomfortable around because they're always scared he'll start flirting with them...

If you wait too long it'll never happen. Throw out every girl you've known for more than a year without having had any romantic involvement with, if any. If you are going for the long game, good luck, I have no advice for you. If you are trying to get touched by and touch a female, follow what the other guys said. Say what's up, ask to hang out, create a good time, state your feelings, go to a private place, make a move. Practice it in your mind, really imagine how they'd react. The worst thing that could happen is they say they're not interested, and as of right now, NO ONE is interested. It can't go in the negative, it can only go up. If you've made it 23 years in life, you've had to overcome some challenges. You can handle some dumb thotties. Go get 'em tiger.

I get where you're coming from dude.The fear is paralyzing but you gotta push through it. You blank out, you get tense, your heart races, breathing hurts. I know what an anxiety attack feels like my dude. The only way you can deprogram your fear response is to override it. You have to push through against it.

Exposure therapy can help. Maybe ask a friend you're 100% not interested in if you can practice with them. Just explain you're awkward and wanna get the wording right or something. Or practice on something like cleverbot or whatever. It's a dumb machine that doesn't know what you want from it but you can just practice typing on the words until it feels less stressful.

maybe I am Autistic then. the only reason I feel uncomfortable is cause the girl feels uncomfortable making me insecure. But I think a lot of the time dudes can read a girl literally sucking their cock as "platonic" cause the y are subconsciously scared of asking her out. or the opposite of viewing almost noticing them as hardcore flirting cause they subconsciously want them to be. I just gave up on trying to read girls years ago.

You are way too afraid about coming of as creepy. If you feel nervous try to play it easy. You don't start with a date but something more noncommittal like a coffee after class. There you clear the air if there is some connection, just light flirting. After this you text a little bit and meet up for another time. And after you have established some common ground you can start to ask her out for a date.

There is nothing creepy about this. Creepy is not seeing multiple signs she is not interested and inviting her to an date meeting your parents.

>The only way you can deprogram your fear response is to override it. You have to push through against it.
But I can't. The fear is too strong.

I need some way of lessening the fear of rejection. If I can't lower my levels of fear, then I will never be able to ask a girl out or even initiate flirting with a girl. Right now, the fear is so strong that it's pretty much impossible.

>Maybe ask a friend you're 100% not interested in if you can practice on them
I do have some girl friends who could help me with that. But I'd be too scared even to ask them for help. I'm scared that if they realize the full extent of me being a kissless dateless handholdless virgin, they'll think I'm a creep or start to associate me with internet incels who murder people.

>You don't start with a date but something more noncommittal like a coffee after class.
I couldn't ask a girl to do that. That sounds utterly terrifying. If I'm being honest with you, I don't think I've ever in my life hung out with a girl one-on-one, not even as just a friend. I have girl friends but they're all people I hang out with only in group settings, or if I am alone with them it's just briefly eg. in class. I wouldn't even know where to begin with asking a girl to go for coffee. I'd be so so terrified that she would think I'm creepy for asking. I can't stress it enough man, I REALLY don't want to make girls uncomfortable by asking them out...

user, life requires that every once in a while you step on someones toes. spending your whole life avoiding this is going to a very unfulfilling life.

I once accidentally asked a girl out for coffee and then stood her up cause I freaked out.

it sounds like you have issues with anxiety,maybe so a professional to deal with it.

But you don't understand. I've NEVER asked a girl out in my life. I've never even flirted with a girl. How am I supposed to do it now, for the first time, at 23?

I don't have social anxiety generally speaking. I have a very specific form of extreme anxiety that surrounds romantic and sexual interactions.

Once upon a time I was even in a bed with a girl who I KNEW was interested in me, and who I was interested in back, and we were spooning together half naked, and yet I couldn't bring myself to make a move on her because:
1. There was still a possibility, however slim, that she could reject me. I couldn't know FOR 100% CERTAIN that she would accept me going in for a kiss
2. I literally don't know how to kiss. I don't know the correct motions to do with my lips and I'm terrified of doing it wrong. I DEFINITELY don't know how to have sex either

why do you keep bringing your age into it like ot matters? if you had never ridden a bike before would you think 23 is too old to learn? If you had never driven before would you just give up because at 23 it is now magically impossible to learn?

>How?
At what point do you want to start? Not knowing her at all or having made first contact already? And what is the setting? Class? A Party?

>I don't get any. Literally never has a girl at college ever shown any signs of attraction to me. Girls are always friendly to me, but nothing more. They never flirt with me.
You might not have noticed it. Many guys don't notice as women tend to be very indirect and subtle in the early process.

>I don't know how to flirt.
Never too late to learn it. But I guess before we start with this you should review your basics first. Like how women show their attraction etc.

>But that's part of what makes me so scared of it.
You are way overreacting there. If you stay within said parts there is nothing creepy about it and women have to put up with it. Maybe you should look at actual creepy behavior to see the difference.

Typical creeps are people who don't respect boundaries or act in unpredictable or socially inacceptable ways. If you and some random girl are alone in a late night train and you continously stare at her and finally walk up to her asking her for a date at your local graveyard. That's actually creepy behavior.

Stating the obvious girls are individuals. Some communicate in a clear way while others are fucking bad at communicating. Body language is a good start because it often is uncontrolled and shows away true intentions.

You can learn to understand how girls tend to express their interest. Because if they like you they obviously will. It's just in "woman language" and some men have a hard time to understand it.

But it does matter.

Girls at this age, even if they were interested in me, expect me to know what I'm doing to some degree. They might be willing to accept inexperience, but I'm not just inexperienced, I have ZERO experience. I don't even know how to kiss. I don't know how to flirt. I've never even been on a simple first date with anyone. It's impossible to convey to the average 19-24 year old girl all of those things. They just won't understand them.

I'm a decent looking guy, and I present myself well and dress well. Girls, when they look at me, don't expect for one minute that I'm a kissless dateless handholdless virgin. I knew one girl who was very forward, and tried to kiss me a few times, and straight up offered to have sex with me. But that same girl also said on several occasions in my presence "I could never have sex with a virgin, it'd be too awkward". So I can only presume that she didn't know I was a virgin. She definitely didn't know that I was kissless, dateless and handholdless. If I had accepted her offer of sex or reciprocated one of the times she tried to kiss me, it would have gone down AWFULLY because she would have realized in that moment that I was a hopelessly inexperienced virgin who didn't know what he was doing. In other words, I'm getting fucked over by my appearance because a lot of girls are interested in me sometimes and think that I look too good to be a virgin, so even if I went for them and they said yes, they'd be DEEPLY disappointed when they realize that I'm a KDHV.

This user might be right.Your have a screwed concept of what women are and how you interact with them. Most of them aren't out to get you.

it's not a competition user. again, not like winning Wimbledon, more like driving a car. When you hire an uber driver all you care about is he can drive, not if he has 20 F1 championships. Infact you would probably hire some polite funny uber driver with a comfy car over an asshole F1 driver with a shitbox. I didn't go on a date until I was 21, caught up pretty quick. atop comparing yourself to others, imagining expectations of others, or building up some weird missing out. Do you think about if a girl is experienced enough at 23 or whatever? no. most people are too obsessed with themselves and their insecurities.

Shit nigga...OP you better shape up

I'm 26 and exactly like you. I just chose never to post about this kind of stuff because even thinking about it depresses me to the point of self-destruction. I'm at the point where the only thing that makes me "happy" is alcohol and trust me, you don't want to be anything like me.

Get out there and shut the fuck up about your fears and worries.

I don't think women are out to get me though? I never said that

>When you hire an uber driver all you care about is he can drive, not if he has 20 F1 championships.
Okay, but using that same analogy, surely I would be the guy who literally doesn't know how to drive. Because I don't know how to kiss, I don't know how to behave on a date (because I've never been on one before), I don't know how to have sex, I don't even know where to put my hands when cuddling with a girl. I cuddled with some girls a few times and every time I felt awkward as fuck, I didn't know what to do or where to put my hands.

>Do you think about if a girl is experienced enough at 23
No, because I am more inexperienced than pretty much every girl I have ever met (and every guy, for that matter).

Girls aren't one uniform hive mind. Just as men aren't. For some girls virginity might be a red flag just as for some men. Others don't care and might even be interested in introducing you to sex. The girl who said that to you was just one girl not the spokesperson of all women.

Try to turn tables. Say you fall in love with a girl, a little bit on the shy and akward side. And after you had some fun and went to a romantic date you learn she is inexperienced. Would this be a major turn off to you? Wouldn't you be more interested in experiencing it together, introducing her to it?

Besides most people who see it as a red flag wouldn't date a shy or awkward person to begin with.

.
>Okay, but using that same analogy, surely I would be the guy who literally doesn't know how to drive.
do you know how you learn to drive? it doesn't really matter if you are 16 or 60. It involves getting behind the fucking wheel of a car. no girl is gonna give that much of a shit that you can't kiss or fuck or cuddle or whatever. none of these things are that hard and you can probably pickup enough just buying going on a few dates.

>For some girls virginity might be a red flag just as for some men. Others don't care and might even be interested in introducing you to sex.
Yes, and I can't tell which girl is which. If I go to ask out a girl, I risk finding out that she might be one of those girls who refuses to date or have sex with virgins. It's impossible to know if she is or isn't, until I ask her out. And by then it's too late, I'm already doomed.

>Say you fall in love with a girl, a little bit on the shy and akward side. And after you had some fun and went to a romantic date you learn she is inexperienced. Would this be a major turn off to you?
It wouldn't be, but that's because I am inexperienced too, in fact I would probably be even less experienced than her. The vast majority of girls my age aren't inexperienced. So asking me what my opinion is, when I am an inexperienced person myself, is irrelevant.

However I have to say, I would rather not have my first time with an inexperienced girl. I feel like my first girlfriend/first sexual experience really should be with a girl who is experienced. Because I have no idea what I'm doing. I need a girl who DOES know what she's doing, so she can tell me if I'm doing things like kissing/sex wrong. If I was to date an inexperienced girl, it would be a mess, neither of us would have a clue and we'd be hopeless together.

have you though about anti anxiety medication?

Like the other user pointed it isn't a competition. It's two people getting close to each other and finding a way to communicate in a sexual way. Because everyone has different preferences experience won't help you that much. Each time you are with a different partner you need to learn again how you click.

There is no universal manual to this. Some people prefer it rough and fast while other like it slow and tender. Just some basic skills that can easily be learned.

Would that help me be less scared of rejection?

>Because everyone has different preferences experience won't help you that much. Each time you are with a different partner you need to learn again how you click.

No, user, I don't think you understand.

I am not just "inexperienced". it's ZERO experience, user. I literally don't know how to kiss. I don't know how I'm supposed to move my lips when kissing. I don't know how to have sex, I couldn't even begin to know how I am supposed to move my body and where I should put my hands when having sex.

This isn't just a case of inexperience, it's a case of literally not knowing what to do. If I ever did get a girl into the bedroom with me, she would be hopelessly disappointed with how BAD I would be at kissing and at sex. I would be like a wet fish flopping about. I would be utterly USELESS at kissing/sex because I genuinely do not know what to do.

I’m 28. It took me a LONG time to understand that not every girl will like me—I didn’t like each and every girl I dated in the end. No one’s fault, that’s just life. The best advice I can give you is to consider it practice. That’s what it sounds like to me—just date girls. And don’t rush. If you’re looking for sex and physical stuff, be clear on like the second or third date.

Bro honestly why do you care so much? I think we need to know this before we can help you.

>I am not just "inexperienced". it's ZERO experience, user. I literally don't know how to kiss. I don't know how I'm supposed to move my lips when kissing. I don't know how to have sex, I couldn't even begin to know how I am supposed to move my body and where I should put my hands when having sex.
as supposed to the rest of us who were just born knowing what we were doing damn.
>This isn't just a case of inexperience, it's a case of literally not knowing what to do.
well usually you just put your penis in her vagina and thrust. didn't need to make a thread for that. if you want a protip doggy is the easiest and her on top can have you literally just sit there. for kissing just copy the girl.
If I ever did get a girl into the bedroom with me, she would be hopelessly disappointed with how BAD I would be at kissing and at sex.
A) who cares?
B) no, you are projecting your insecurities onto some random girls.

1) don’t treat it like a pie eating contest
2) if she likes you she won’t care—she may even find it sexy
3) sex is not like how it is in porn
4) wear protection

For this reason you are dating. It's about establishing if there is any common ground to go on with. You aren't suppose to marry when you ask her out for coffee. And just as you might find red flag she might during the process. That's just human life. Nothing different to meeting people on a platonic level really.

And like already pointed out, you are making way too much out of experience. Not every women is a merciless ice queen sitting on her throne waiting for you to amuse her. Women can actually be people who show affection and empathize. And for this reason your lack of experience isn't a matter to them. They are happy to help you get over it because they like you.

Experience can in fact be a disadvantage. Some experienced people think so much of themselves they don't bother to communicate about personal preferences but will just pull out their routine. But if you don't like something and anal it is an integral part of the routine it's just trash at this point.

Go get rejected and get over it. I'm two years older than you and had a few chicks show interest before, long time ago. It's been fucking years since I even bothered thinking about relationship shit. Hadn't bothered even asking out because I prefer being alone and most people are shitty and not worth the effort.

New girl showed up and my dick took the wheel for longer than I wanna admit. Was getting looks, looked back and said hey. We flirted for a bit but once she got to know me, we didn't match. Good looking girl but god was she dull. Didn't appreciate my humor. Really wasn't my type and I'm not the type to fake it for some pussy even though I'm a wizard in training. Too much effort. Anyway, I got lowkey rejected and it hurt, but time passes and you'll realize the opinion of one stupid girl doesn't matter. Just embrace yourself. I haven't met a chick worth the time. If you just want some fuck, fake it till you get it. If I can get as far as I did, you probably can go all the way. Just at the cost of dignity and honesty, maybe.

tl;dr go get shot down a few times and you'll become numb to the opinions of stupid women. Get to know a few and realize just how worthless their opinions really are

I care so much because I'm a kissless dateless handholdless virgin. I've spent 7 years now trying to work out why I am a KDHV, and how I can break out of that box. Everything has changed in my life, most things for the better, and I have become far more attractive and more confident over the years. And yet I am still a KDHV. It's maddening. I don't know what's so wrong with me that means I can't even get one first date with a girl.

>as supposed to the rest of us who were just born knowing what we were doing damn.
No, but pretty much everyone else learns how to do these things in their teens or at the latest at 20/21. I'm 23, I'm too old to be just now doing them for the first time. Even inexperienced people have usually at least kissed once or twice, or been on a date. Even hateful misogynistic incels on the internet who write essays on reddit usually speak about how they have been on "countless first dates" and just never got a second. I've never even kissed, and not been on even one first date, let alone a second. How bad must I be if I can't even get one date or one kiss?

this is circular now. Nobody, no woman, no man, gices a shit if you are experienced or not at 23.

Bro I'm a 26 year old KDHV or whatever other faggot acronym you want to create. Never even had a female friend. I'm a fucking loser but somehow I still survive. Maybe you don't need that shit man. Life is vast. If it's gonna happen it definitely isn't gonna happen when you care this hard about it. Go out and have fun by yourself. Try drugs and drink and meet people.

They might not give a shit about the fact that I'm inexperienced. But they probably will give a shit about the fact that I will be a terrible, useless kisser and even worse at sex due to my total lack of experience doing those things.

>No, user, I don't think you understand.
I think I understand quite well. You have a screwed picture of what a loving and caring woman is like. For you every woman seems to be like sitting on a throne and your job is to entertain her. If you don't make her laugh she will have your head. Not a single thing given to you. And they all are sex-demigods too.

These women exist but they aren't every women. In fact they are toxic cold bitches one should stay away from. A girl who is affectionate will understand that you don't have any experience and will be willing to teach you.

If you feel super insecure the most basic stuff can be looked up in the internet.

>Go out and have fun by yourself. Try drugs and drink and meet people.
I did all that and have done for years. Plenty of friends and go to parties and clubs regularly. Drink alcohol socially, often in large quantities, and have tried weed, coke and ketamine on multiple occasions. I've "lived life" and done all the "normie shit" as you Anons would probably call it. But I'm still a KDHV and still haven't had even one girl express romantic interest in me.

nope. they will not care about that either.

They'd probably think it's weird, but if they're friends that are worth a shit, they'll help you out.
Any girl that would totally bail on you after finding out something like that isn't worth being friends with.
Also, what's the alternative, being forever alone?
The longer you hold off on getting better, the harder it'll be as you age.
27yo virgin here.

Then just exist as I do; it's not the end of the world to be alone.

>pic related

That aside, OP, you sure like to whine and self-loathe. I wouldn't tolerate you if I was a chick. I don't wanna deal with this whiny shit with my guy friends. Get over yourself and stop thoretically comparing yourself to non-existants. Fuck

Attached: maybe.png (456x317, 255K)

>But I'm still a KDHV and still haven't had even one girl express romantic interest in me.
Chances are that this isn't true. Most girls just don't walk up to you with "u want sum fuk". And trust me: sexual harassment doesn't feel that great, even if the woman is attractive.

I mean it user. Not once has a girl ever expressed any desire to date me. Girls have called me attractive, hot, even sexy, and one or two girls have offered me no strings attached blowjobs or sex. But no girl has EVER expressed a desire to date me, and no girl has ever flirted with me.

There comes a point where you have to care about what YOU want over what THEY want.
Based off of the things I've read in this thread, you're doing most everything right.
You say that you've even got to the point of half naked spooning.
Like said, this is circular now.
>I'm a KDHV, no woman would ever want me because of my inexperience.
Sounds like you have some kind of self esteem problems at the heart of this.
If you can ever get over yourself and put YOURSELF first, you can get out of this rut pretty fucking quick.

Holy shit, user, those are the signs that they are interested in you, that was flirting, that was them giving you signs that they are open to dating you.
Society is built around the man taking the initiative.
NEVER expect a woman to ask you on a date, you must do it yourself.

Like the other anons pointed out, this is getting circular. There are deeper underlying issues like self-esteem issues and your dysfunctional concept of women. And before you fix them discussing dating and sex is moot at this point.

And you think they tell you that because they think of you like a cute puppy? Jesus Christ Almighty.

You need to understand that woman communicate in a more indirect way because they fear rejection as much as you do and have to suffer possible slut shaming too.

>Holy shit, user, those are the signs that they are interested in you
Not necessarily

1. The girls who complimented my looks were doing so in "matter of fact" ways. They weren't getting flirty, leaning in, winking at me or giving me seductive eyes when they said it. They just said, in conversation, "user, you're really hot" or "I think you're attractive user". There was nothing additional to it.

2. The girls who offered me sex didn't necessarily want to date me. They were girls who are very open about sex, they just offered it no strings attached because they were drunk or something and for whatever reason took a brief interest in me. Those same two girls who offered me sex/a blowjob haven't spoken to me in months so they clearly don't give that much of a shit

>self-esteem issues
Not OP but the 26 year old incel guy who has been responding in this thread.

What can I do to ail this?

Also I use "incel" as an affliction not a political attitude. I hold to hate towards anyone other than myself.

I'm at an age where it's getting sad that I have never had anything happen romantically and I drink myself to sleep most nights and if I'm sober just want to commit suicide. Any tips?

Consider what just said.
>You need to understand that woman communicate in a more indirect way because they fear rejection as much as you do and have to suffer possible slut shaming too.

Girls don't just compliment a guys appearance for no reason. When they compliment you like that, give them one back, see where it leads.
That could very well go to the point where they're twirling their hair and shit at you, i.e giving you the signs.

Find something you are passionate about, a hobby that not only makes you more interesting, but helps you grow as a person, like bodybuilding or learning music.
Especially hobbies that get you outside and interacting with people, preferably women.
Don't try and get straight to the point of dating them first, try to become friends with them, like you would a guy, but be mindful of them...ya know...not being guys.

Excercise and change your diet. Get a hobby, learn a language. DO something. You're fucking pathetic if that shit is true and anyone sorry enough to label themself as an incel unironically is probably not worth saving but against all odds, try. You sorry faggot. Try.

Quit eating fucking cheetoes, go do some cardio, lose some weight and eat better and you will feel better. I'm not even suggesting bodybuilding but do fucking SOMETHING that isn't sitting on your ass two or three days out of the week, assuming you actually have a job to take up the rest of it.

Quit putting so much fucking value on the ridiculous misconstrued concept of procreation you have in your fucking tiny brain. It doesn't matter. Your sorry sperm cells don't matter if they get passed on. Your perceived worth as a human is not determined by your virginity status. If anything, it's by your attitude and I'm telling you, based on these posts, it gets a fucking F. Stop whining. DO something. DO SOMETHING.

You don't come of as a typical incel, you derserve a fair answer.

A good start would be to develop a healhy understanding of the value of relationships. You seem to base your entire selfworth on not having a relationship. Is this really what defines you as a human being? There will be lots of lovable traits or facinating interests in you completely independet on your sexual experience. And there are lots of other things to life than being in a relationship. Try to focus on these and you will start to appreciate yourself more for what you are.

Also don't idealize relationships. Sure there are the good one but many people are in bad ones or ones that are in large parts neutral. Even the good ones have these elements to a certain degree. The same applies to sex too.

Bro I lost 100 pounds in the last year and my "confidence" hasn't changed much I'm still a social idiot. I actually have a great body but I am so riddled with mental illness that I hate myself no matter what the situation is. For reference I am 5'8" at 160 pounds with a solid amount of muscle and broad ass shoulders.Yes, there is a bit of loose skin that kills me to see day in and day out.
What's funny is what you said about music man lmao. I have been a musician my whole life (last 15 years seriously) but my depression made me fall out of love with it so hard and it ruined my life.
Brother I don't know how to live a life as an independent man. Honestly I hear a lot about "toxic masculinity" and it reminds me of how insecure I am of my own masculinity and I just give up in things and life. I definitely want to try new things. I actually have started lately with some physical stuff like rock-climbing and basketball.

>Brother I don't know how to live a life as an independent man.
So you want to develop a healthy sense of masculinity? Toxic masculinity is just what is is - toxic masculinity. Lot's of healthy forms around (progressive and traditional or middle-ground). Think of Aragorn in LotR as an example. He is compassionate, shows a lot of humility without being a pushover at the same time.