Is there any particular reason for why HK hasn't swollowed its pride and chambered the MP7 in 5.7mm already...

A lot of popular modern rounds began as wildcats. Shit's a normal part of firearm development.

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The mp7 gets enough orders already. Besides, 5.7 would be a desperation move. It's like if a company jumped on .327 mag or something. They want it to be less popular, not more.

S H A L L

4.6 Beats 5.7

7N21/31 does the same shit and doesn't require any modification to the firearm. Most modern 9x19mm pistols would have zero trouble with it if you changed the recoil spring or added mass to the slide and SMGs would be fine as they are, MP5s were run with L7A1 and 7N21/31 isn't even close to that pressure.

How so? I'm interested in this

No it does not. Some French spec Ops guy got killed whilst using an MP7. The reason was because 4.6mm cannot put down people with body shots unless they are hit with 15 rounds.

I can't name many, unless you're talking about something like 300 blk, which is still fairly boutique and is only valid because it's compatible with an existing design with a barrel swap like Unless you're counting any small scale development as wildcat. Say, something like 338 lapua might qualify by your definition but not mine.

Anyway, when you're functionally building guns from the ground up around your new bullet (both the p90 and the MP7 come to mind) you've gotta have something really special on your hands or you're going to end up a very expensive evolutionary dead end. Or you get a big fat .mil contract and force the meme so hard it gets traction for a few decades and then people move on and try to forget it existed.

or, you know, chamber it in 9x19 like a normal person

If NATO wanted that, it would have bought the MP9.

NATO should have bought the TMP, it was a great gun.

During the many evaluation tests, the 5.7 showed poor penetration and fragmentation at 150m+ think it was cirstat +kevlar
The 4.6mm penetrated it.

And remember guys, this is self defense ammunition, it Main purpose is to have the possibility to hurt an assaulting enemy in a small package.

A carbine is what the french spec ops should have used, the 5.7 Would most likely do the same. I think it was evaluated AS 30 percent better terminal ballistics

I personally, unironically, think that if PDWs are going to have a future it's going to be in 10mm or 5.7. There's no reason to even visit the middle ground.

I don't get the PDW meme, aren't they just a slightly better pistol? Carbines exist and seem better in every way for every application.

No it wasn't. Mostly because it was in a bad calibre. NATO already has pistols for 9mm. They need a different round that pierces armor for their machine pistols.

The same reason Germany blocked the adoption of the 5.7
Money.
Hk is the only manufacturer for the Ammo, if their gun is adopted they get the deal for the gun and the ammo, parts etc.
If there is buyer pressure they might consider it but it’s unlikely.

A carbine can be a PDW. Think 6 inch barrel ARs chambered in. 300blk.

Other good examples include: 7mm-08, .22-250 (where you just change the neck/bullet diameter) or rounds like .454 Casull or .460 Rowland which were a major increase in pressure, so they just lengthened the case so that you can't accidentally load it into a firearm not designed to handle the pressures. If you look up most cartridges on wiki, there's a section where it says "parent case" specifically because they took an existing round and modified it in some way or another.

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So i pic with of a dead guy with an AK proves that 7.62 is bad? You can't evaluate or conclude anything from that, since we don't know the exact situation and have a sample size of 1

Neat, thanks.

If you know who the dead AK was fighting, and it was a different caliber, then yeah, maybe it is a bad round. 7.62X39mm has never done well against opponents with 5.56mm.

Here's your new PDW:
>Small
>Pierces armor
>Targets fall when hit

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They were both fun ideas but the PDW concept is dead considering the PP-2000 and Minebea PM-9 just use 9mm loads and rifle rounds do it all better as well. RIP P90, RIP MP7

You are thinking of SMGs. They're dead. They've been dead since 2007.

PDWs are something in between SMG and carbine. Something that has no loss of effectiveness if fighting at short range. Something like this.

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I don't think 7.62mm is optimised for sub 10 inch barrels.

>Building a gun that will benefit a large rival of yours.

5.7 round is literally property of FN.

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This.

>you could buy a proprietary gun chambered for a proprietary meme round that pierces (soft) armor and is otherwise shit
>or you could develop an armor piercing +P 9mm and use your existing stock or a carbine

9mm is outdated and cannot piece armor/kill well. It's meant for soft targets.

7N21 and 7N31 say hi.

It's not 9mm if it's got more cordite than .50 BMG behind it. Russia's round for the VSS is super hot.

No one is jumping to chamber their next service firearm in any of those either.

what. The 9mm used in the VSS is not 9x19mm, it's 9x39mm. Completely different cartridge with nothing in common.

I'm talking about modern Russian 9x19mm Parabellum cartridges designed for military use, i.e. piercing armor. The ones they load into their PP-2000s and MP-443s.

Those rounds must obviously be bad if no one else is using them.

>cordite
Nobody has used cordite in decades, user.

The point is that a round that starts as a wildcat can easily become broadly adopted by the industry.

NATO specs the pdw ammo to be able to penetration @ 100-200m no way 9mm can penetrate anything out to those ranges

You are confusing cordite with black powder, femanon. Everything uses cordite now.

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>Borderline wildcat
I think you're giving 22 TCM a little too much credit.

Don't spread misinformation. Cordite stopped being used in the 40's and it only stayed in service that long because of the UK's logistics nightmare.

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Umm, no? Gunpowder and cordite are the same thing.

Wait, so you guys seriously don't know that gunpowder's chemical name is cordite?

But does it still have more energy than any pistol round out of one?

50AE and .50mag are probably stronger.

What about like a PTR 32 pistol?

Quit screwing around.

>7N31
Holy fuck boys (freedom unit conversions included for fellow burgers)

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There is AP 9x19mm.

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see

>Hk is the only manufacturer for the Ammo,
Not true at all moron. Fiocchi has the contract to make it and S&B also do.

If anything FN is the jew as American Eagle only picked up their round a few years back and FNH was the only producer for a long time.

HK doesn't make a single round btw.

Are you even in high school yet?

HK is replacing the 4.6 with a better proprietary round.

>In any case I think the better solution would be what tge Swedes did with the weird green UZI-looking PDW they use.
That thing wasn't ever adopted, it remained a bunch of prototypes.

The cartridge was pretty interesting though.

Source or gtfo

Cordite is made from hacked up 'cord', hence the name. It was an early form of smokeless gunpowder which the British Empire used, and then stuck with after ceasing to be an empire. I don't think they changed it out until the 1950s.

People may call modern smokeless powders 'cordite', but that's a colloquialism at most, people haven't generally made gunpowder in the way of cordite since the 20th century.
It's like calling a Blu-Ray Disc a "Laser Disc", they may have some simularities, but they really are pretty different.

Less recoil. The idea is to have a bunch of little rounds that quickly shred through body armor, even if their ballistics are lacking because it is made up for in volume and size. Less recoil=more efficient full auto.

5.7 was designed partially to be a viable handgun cartridge, which means it is less efficient (but still viable) in PDW form than 4.6.

>shit seven

It's better in both handgun and SMG usage than 4.6mm, though. A P90 has more power than an MP7.

reading is hard

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Especially for you, it seems.

>You are thinking of SMGs. They're dead.
They aren't, though. "SMGs are dead" is a meme of the mid-2000s before it was realized that people who can get "better" options actually still want the things. Hence why companies in the 2010s have made brand new actually-pistol-caliber submachine guns, like the B&T APC9 and the SIG MPX. The Army just put out an RFI for a new submachine gun.

Feels a bit like 9mm vs .45 here

>no compromising inferior magazine capacity

I'm sure that wont keyhole

Except that doesn't actually happen. It's still a boutique round 99.999% of the time if it's not coming out of a .gov / .mil development program.

the fact that the original PDW requirements had a max weapon weight of 1.5kg

That's literally how 5.56mm came about.

Adapting .223 (which was developed for a huge .mil project by a giant company) into 5.56 isn't the same thing. And like I said, that stuff only caught on in the first place because of the .mil adaptation (which some people still think was a shitty idea).

The line between successful "wildcat" an unsuccessful one is one wanker approving a contract and we don't need another dozen sub par rounds that require 100% new ground up built firearms when we've already got lots of sub par rounds that do the same job just as badly. Things like 4.6 are abomination and in ~20 years they'll only be known by their wikipedia page (assuming we haven't glassed the planet by then).

>developed for a huge .mil project by a giant company
So exactly like 4.6x30mm, then?

That's my point. It's not "wildcat" if it's being pushed out of a huge orifice like Remington or HK.

And that still doesn't mean it's good.