Can't understand what the hell has been happening on the web regarding German military and especially tanks.Over the past five years I've noticed more spreading of the meme "the Good German Army myth", basically trying to lambaste and poison any credibility the German army had. At first I thought this was just what is probably going on in Jow Forums like boards here, where people are just trying to be contrarian special snowflakes but I've been seeing this spread on multiple popular forums and social media sites. I think it's deliberate.
Take pic related. That is a Jagdtiger. Not arguing the reliability factor of trying to rush something like this out, but look up the penetration tables. The first thing you'll notice is that there are two major sets of penetration tables: One slightly superior to the 88 at range but inferior in close range. The second set is slightly better than the 88 all around. The trouble is, this used to be my favorite tank destroyer, and the pen tables for this tank used to be significantly better. Yes, there was a third set. Worse yet, I can't fucking find it anywhere. I've dug and dug, my last resort is to find my papaw's old tank book and take a photograph. There's actually been a lot of negative media about the German army in technical revisions as well, and I can't help but believe this is somehow concerted. One other thing you'll notice about the pen tables is their inefficiency at long range in dealing with the Jagdtiger's own armor. The Germans had a habit of devising tank guns that could penetrate their own armor in case of capture. This seems to be an exception given the absolutely shitty stats this thing has according to Wikipedia.The old Jagdtiger wiki article mentioned much higher stats but it has since been scrubbed. Also, articles like this have been appearing in greater frequency: nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/hitlers-monstrous-jagdtiger-tank-destroyers-were-colossal-25256
Because people take War Thunder and WoT for gospel. Welcome to the age where doing your own research is beyond the question.
Asher Ward
cry more wehraboo
Lucas Moore
Ironically, video game forums seem to be the most on top of this and there's people trying to correct the stats on the Jagtiger. I don't play those video games so I don't know what to make about this. forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/275083-128mm-apds-treibspiegelgeschoss-mit-h-kern/ It could be referencing this type of shell, but the stats I recall seeing said something like 330 mm against a flat plate at 100 meters, ~270 at 1000 meters, 230 mm at 1500 meters, and about 200 mm at 2000 meters, with ~170 mm at 3000 meters.
Ethan Collins
>Because people take War Thunder and WoT for gospel I just posted about this here: The only ones actually doing research and presenting the first hand evidence are those playing War Thunder and I take it that acronym is "World of Tanks". They seem to be the correct ones here to me. In fact the game is off and the forums recognized that German tanks were under performing by "40 mm".
>come to Jow Forums >hey guys here's some evidence of mainstream bias and spread of incorrect information
>"Fuck those guys laying vidya" >*ignores first hand evidence and technical revisions being sent by the community >"They just don't do their reserach,like me." >*Fails to produce anything of value, walks out
>*Second guy walks in >"HAHA Cry more!" >Classic bait >Not even worth a response
Yes, I was right. Jow Forums stands for Jow Forumsancer.
It's just more propaganda to condition people into being ok with white genocide.
Jace Garcia
Because with Trump we are reached a new level of American nationalism. So everything not American must be talked down - a weird inferiorty complex.
Basically becoming what Russians are for 60 years.
Jace Cooper
>hey guys here's some evidence of mainstream bias and spread of incorrect information
The long standing myths of German armor performance are being debunked.
Joshua Brown
Adorable
Noah Martin
>trying to lambaste and poison any credibility the German army had.
You're over generalizing a bit. There's definitely been some dispelling of myths when it comes to German equipment, especially the idea the idea that they were somehow leaps and bounds more advanced than everyone else. That said the claim that they had a "bad army" is pretty dumb, they had a very capable officer corps and were able continue the conflict despite the situation they found themselves in. They wouldn't have gotten as far as they did with a "bad army". Also I have noticed a lot of people actually begin to appreciate the actual successes of the Germans, for instance the StuG is now far more known as the Axis MVP.
On a different note discussion of tanks online in most places is awful, that said German super heavies are going to get shit on a lot because they usually were, especially the jagdtiger. Even Otto Carius spent a page or two tearing into the jagdtigers his unit operated in his book.
>I'm beginning to think those gamer forums have their shit straight and Jow Forums is a waste of time.
Video games are one of the reasons tank discussion is so terrible, with them everything that isn't top speed, armor, and penetration value goes out the window.
I think it is the pendulum just swinging too hard the other way. When I was on the internet in 2000-2005 there was a lot of fans of the german army on video game boards spouting off the armor and guns and how good the tanks were. Then later people started countering this with poor maintenance and complexity but as with all things it has now gone to "German tiger and panther tanks couldn't drive 50km without breaking down". There's just no middle field anymore.
I read the wiki article on some german tank ace and they included the most silly, biased historian ever that claimed that him being a tank ace with 100+ tank kills didn't mean he was a good tanker, just that his tank was better than the russians and the fact that he later died in combat fighting the americans proved this. Like wtf you don't read that in any american fighter ace articles.
Don't get me started on how vilified the Waffen SS is and how people are completely unable to separate the Waffen SS from the SS camp guards and the SS einsatzgruppe and act like they are all the same group. There's a book where the auther tried to dispel some of the popular myths at the end, like the SS having much more casualties than the wehrmacht etc. He then wrote that he hoped more research would be put into this in the future since he had limited ability to do so. That was 10 years ago. Ain't nobody going to dedicate any time making the SS seem more sane or less evil.
Jack Barnes
Outside of the context of that game, he isn't wrong. Many of the myths of German armor are being dispelled as we look at both Allied and German machines, and stuff like "Death Traps" is being seen as the misleading junk that it is. Generally speaking the technical aspects of their machines is receiving more attention than the fantastical, but often more entertaining, stories of certain Allied personnel.
It was easily one of the most successful German armored fighting vehicle of the war, excelling at both defensive and offensive operations, were relatively easy to build, and performed excellently in the field on both fronts.
>Used bolt action rifles for most of their troops unlike superior Americans and Soviets >France had better early tanks "chad" 1b> "pansy" 3 >80% horse drawn logistics >LMAO reliability doesn't matter war is just like WOT
Germany was lucky to face French Generals that thought it was still 1917 and a Soviet Union that had recently gone thorough a officer purge and was still mobilizing. But that luck ran out once the great powers got their shit together it really doesn't matter all to much if your air force has jets if the enemy is carpet bombing your cities at will, it doesn't matter if you have the "best" armor if it gets stuck in the mud, wars are not won by who has the very best weapon, but by the ones that have the best army over all.
Adam Gray
How about this.
The myth of the Germans having vast technical superiority in the field of armor is being dismantled as the public is looking less to the often fantastical testimony of certain published works ex-military members and more to the actual reports from the war. For example Allied tankers reportedly encountered dozens of Tigers in Normandy when in reality only a bare fraction of that number was actually operating in that theater. Not only this but many vehicles themselves have been scrutinized further as the internet has given many access to a vast amount of sources. The Panther was once hailed as the pinnacle of tank design during the second world war, but now many of its shortcomings are now revealed. The vehicle was an absolute nightmare for maintenance crews ,it was plagued with numerous technical deficiencies, and of course its final drive was such a mess that it actually restricted the movement of the divisions it was issued to.
Overall, the belief in a vast disparity of technical superiority when it comes to armor has diminished.
It is literrly called Sturmgeschütz for direct fire support, which grouped in Sturmgeschützabteilungen, so even in ideal condtion an infantry division had only 18 StuGs in 1941.
Samuel Cox
So then I guess making a claim and then backing it up is saying nothing. As opposed to just snide remarks I suppose.
It was still designed, built, and fielded as an offensive tool though of course it was still a potent weapon on the defense as well. What relevance does how many of something there is have to its design and use?
James Rivera
Was Germany on the offensive or defensive in 1941.
Gabriel Garcia
You are giving him his quota of (you)'s, notice how he isn't actually making an argument to refute you.
They were direct fire support vehicles and didn't carry any offensive. For that there were never enough StuG at one point of the front line anyway.
I guess people are playing too much World of Tanks.
Jayden Collins
>I guess people are playing too much World of Tanks. > carry any offensive. >carry
Yeah, I wonder who in this thread is playing too many video games.
Colton Lewis
You?
Lincoln Cox
>repeating your claims
Not them, but the history is available to you to read at length. Pick up an actual book written in the past 20 years instead of just trying to drag people around providing citations when not even Wikipedia agrees with you.
Armored Champion by Zaloga is an accessible starting point that discusses the comprehensive effectiveness of different tanks throughout the war.
Jayden Nelson
>read a book!
Jaxon Morris
>Zaloga shills
That explains everything.
Robert Price
Tanks: 100 Years of Evolution is also a pretty good place.
Samuel Sanchez
Further down the Wikipedia rabbit hole, look into Philip Cross edits. It is very fascinating.
>Call a direct fire support vehicle the most successful German armoured vehicle
Is this some meme I'm missing?
Blake Reed
Pro-WWII German fans are tainted by Naziboos who sees any criticism as an attack on the waifu, Hitler. Accept the fact that though Germans have good workmanship and attentiom to detail, they suck at looking at the bigger picture. Their equipment are designed to function best IN THE BEST CASE scenario. Frequently, wehraboos look at these equipment in vacuum and announce their superiority over Allied equipment. The current swing in opinion stems from realization of this flaw in thinking.
What happened is this The Wehraboo caused the spawn of the reverse-Wehraboo, who is against any and everything German. If it's German, it's bad. No if not but.
Charles Robinson
what do you think you do to get an MA in History?
Ayden Sullivan
>Somebody tell me I'm not crazy. You're not crazy, I've noticed it as well.
It's actually quite simple OP, whenever someone has to actively shill for or against something, that means 2 things: 1. they're much weaker than they pretend to be (hence the need to shill and astroturf in the first place) and 2. the other non shilling side is right. Vatniks are a textbook example of this, not that vatniks would ever understand.
>There's definitely been some dispelling of myths when it comes to German equipment, especially the idea the idea that they were somehow leaps and bounds more advanced than everyone else.
At the very start of the war they were a lot more advanced than everyone else. If you look at the make up of their armored core and air fleet vs France, Japan, Italy, US, and USSR you would see that it was far more up to date then other countries had in service. Having said that a lot of people mistake their lead that was compositional in nature for being outright technological in nature.
Let take the BF-109. Before the war the UK had two fighters types, the Hurricane and Supermarine, which could fight it on even terms. At the time of the Munich Agreement the UK had only two fully operational Hurricanes squadrons and would have its first operational Spitfire squadron 6 days AFTER the crisis was over. If war had started at that time the Luftwaffe would of eaten the RAF alive. The UK government of the time did know about that issue other closely related issues with trying to fight a war right then and viewed appeasement as a time buying measure.
Bentley Reyes
>play Germany in WT because I want to drive Leo 1, Leo 2, and KPz70/Keiler eventually >get called a pretend nazi wehraboo in every match by tryhard US players and KV-1 spammers
Germ tanks ware overrated for 50 years, only now, with the spread of interwebs, we can verify lots of information.
I have several detailed articles precisely describing how and when their tigers, panthers, elefants etc kept breaking, or getting disabled (like that battalion of tigers, who all broke during 50km trip from railway to the unit) or blew up on their own mines (like most elefants under Kursk). Also, the hiyh command was so insanely retarded... instead of sending ressuplies to the units, they preffered to recreate entire units back home, leaving old units being shadows of their former selfes. German quality is a meme.
Isaiah Smith
Nowadays the myth that needs to be debunked is that German armor is terrible.
Jose Flores
It's buttfrustrated vatniks and bongs, for the most part. Case in point.
Wehraboos were a real thing but anti-wehraboos are every bit as bad.
Ian Turner
It's a negative reaction to years of absurd German tech wanking that downplayed or outright ignored comparative allied designs.
From Armor to Aircraft.
Oliver Price
butthurt... I see
Wyatt Evans
This just reads like someone desperately trying to not give up on the "german ubercats" tank meme.
It's fucking dumb as shit. The jagdtigers gun was, of course, a fucking beast...but that's the whole point. It HAD no fucking point. Panther's were penning, reliably, every piece of allied armour right up until the end of the war. It's just a shame they had their own problems, like interlocking road wheels that fucking jammed when mud froze on them.
The reality of the german victories REALLY IS "good german army". Their officers were amongst the most highly educated in the world, having massive and well rounded curriculums. Their armoured forces drilled together in mass formations long before anyone else's did. It REALLY was not a matter of superior equipment carrying them, though some of it was undoubtedly superior. Oddly enough no one is fascinated by the german ability to produce accurate maps in WWII, though this is as important or MORE than MUH 128 MM MONSTER KANONEE BABEH.
How do you know the new penentration tables are not more accurate than the old one? Military myths are busted every day.
>Oddly enough no one is fascinated by the german ability to produce accurate maps in WWII But tanks and guns are COOL. Fucking up 10% less than the enemy in a field that civilians do not even realize exists is not cool. Read Martin van Crevelds book if you're interested in such thinks (jewish, so probably not a wehraboo before someone asks).
>gee Billy, how come their equipment quality starts dropping all of a sudden >I don't know Johnny, but guarding this rare materials deposit sure is boring
I recall guderian claiming in his memoirs that the first armor plates they tested shattered "like glass" in the wrong conditions. Metallurgy is hard even when you don't have material shortages.
Bentley Cook
Early German tanks were made from the same type they used on ships, which didn't really work when it was scaled down. The only proper way of making proper armor was using molybdenum, and the only European mine was in Norway, which they overran in 1940. The mine got bombed in 1943, halting molybdenum production, causing the expected shortage in 1944.
Jordan Cox
>38125613 >dude, steel and iron is the same and having no resources and your factories bombed is also the same, fuck germs and their "armour" xD
Angel Peterson
Ha,exactly. Like this shit is new, or teams of skilled professionals didn't build up the reputation in the first place.
Nathan Adams
>WT players are only ones with first hand research on tanks >wargaming literally finds the chieftain's hatch where they actually show you the real tanks and go into detail on them Will war thunder players ever get off their high horse? The world may never know.
John Wilson
I wish I knew what this post was about.
Cameron Taylor
I don't know how pic is related. It's clearly taken a number of heavy shots to the front. It looks like at pretty close range.
Asher Fisher
Pretty much this.
Michael Thomas
I've already said that I don't play any games like that. No World of Tanks. No Warthunder. Not even Toy Soldiers. But review this thread and review the gamer forums and it's not hard to figure out which one has it's shit together. People are here solely for jokes about weapons, not actual discussion on weapons/platforms.
Gabriel Robinson
Interesting lead. Thanks guy.
Henry Wright
90 posts and I still haven't seen a serious attempt of showing why German tanks were bad.
Lincoln Clark
And this is exactly the problem. The only thing coming close was something about molybdenum, and some guy who tried sourcing Guderian's memoirs, which I've been reading recently and don't recall anything like what he was saying.
>There's definitely been some dispelling of myths when it comes to German equipment, especially the idea the idea that they were somehow leaps and bounds more advanced than everyone else.
They were lightyears ahead of anything. Basically Germany was the only country that understood the role of the tank on the battlefield.
Radio communication and providing a high degree of situational awareness basically rendered all other tanks at the beginning of the war obsolete.
Jeremiah Foster
>posts czech engineering
Mason Morris
But German tanks lacked the shillium of American and Russian tanks.
Isaac Torres
>Calls Bohemians "Czechs" Post modernist memes have gone too far this time. >They were lightyears ahead of anything. Basically Germany was the only country that understood the role of the tank on the battlefield. This exactly. It's wild how much detail, micro and macro, went into their theory and organization yet it came out streamlined and surprisingly simple enough to work.
Carson Miller
>shillium heh, now that's a good one
Carson Wood
Radios mounted in tanks were already a thing during the twenties.
