what happened to American made pistols? we used to dominate at least half of the market with smith and wesson, colt and in some smaller circles Ruger and Remington
almost everyone uses European pistols and half of those I just mentioned have gone to laughable shit, with pic related being the only contender in the market anymore
European pistols aren't much better off. Just have Glock and bunch of shit.
Jonathan Moore
Walther dislikes this
Carson Price
They didn't innovate, they were reluctant to produce even semi-autos that weren't 1911s. So everyone left them in the dust. Even the M&P's primary selling point over the Glock is "You don't have to pull the trigger to strip it so your retarded LEOs who skip their yearly requals don't shoot themselves"
Hunter Adams
The 2.0 Smith & Wesson M&P series is pretty good. Actually damn good for being sub $400 when you can find a deal on it.
Ayden Jackson
Glock has stuck to a product. American manufacturers took one step forward then two steps back, trying to beat glock at their own game while making a product inferior to what they offered decades ago
People buy a glock because they want a glock. People need a good reason to want an American gun. Ruger offers a cheaper product than S&W and have stuck with that imagine, despite having premium offerings. S&W had a reputation for some slick autos by 3rd gen and dumped it all for muh MILITARY & POLEESE to make a slightly cheaper (not cheap enough) not glock brand glock
M&P did and still does give the Glock a run for their money in full size guns. Glock has dominated the compact market forever though and I still carry my gen 2 g19 everyday but if I were buying today I don't think I could choose a new g19 over the 2.0 compact.
Isaac Wilson
IMO they got complacent. "Americans will buy our stuff anyway, why try to innovate?" I don't think they really care if anyone outside the US buys their products either.
I too am sad and embarrassed that the gunninest country on earth can't make duty handguns that hold a candle to Euro offerings. In general, I would take any polymer or metal duty handgun from any of the above-listed brands before anything from S&W, Ruger, Remington, Springfield, Colt, or Kel-Tec. It's pretty much undeniable that the Euro handguns beat the fuckin pants off any US-based company.
Jonathan Fisher
>HK, glock, beretta, FN, Sphinx, CZ >all shit Sounds like denial to me.
Nathaniel Sanchez
U wot? M&p shield and Ruger lcp are some of the most common concealed carry handguns on the market. 1911s are still huge and revolvers are still going very strong from Smith and Ruger
Nathaniel Ramirez
Everyone of those but Glock is on S&W's level.
Gavin Gomez
Boomers got complacent, but above all else became the personification of greed. Remington is a good example of this.
Not really. Glock just came in at a price point that they couldn't be competitive against. The work to make a steel or aluminum frame over polymer was already enough to make cost higher, but look at the barrels in pic related versus a glock. And the inside of the slide is machined to fit with the barrel shape for improved accuracy, all more work
The 915 was their budget option and you could tell they were focusing on reducing the amount of work these pistols needed. The finish wasn't as nice but they were still all steel/aluminum minus the grips
910 was introduced with the AWB and had mags fixed to 10 rounds. To save money some small parts were changed to polymer including the sights (glock didn't use steel sights until gen 5)
They were making great guns but they were just too expensive. As you can tell, they took the AWB to heart and really shifted focus to Military and Police. They knew they had to play glock's game and have tried to come in at a price point to compete with glock's blue label
The Hillary holes were arguably the beginning of the end for S&W. The M&P series is decent for the price, but it still just feels like more glawk clones.
Ruger never have a shit and continues to not give a shit. The LCP series is the best they have. Half their firearms should have never gotten passed quality assurance. If you do get a lemon, you send it back to Ruger, they send it back still broken, and you repeat the process three more times.
Jayden Green
But that price though. $150 and a good sale can get you a 10/22 or an LCP
Colton Thomas
>all else was bought out, then every penny was milked from the company and the husk of what was left was dumped back on the market fixed
Ryan Young
Ruger is great if you don't mind working on the guns yourself. They've sent me small parts and installed myself but I've never dealt with sending them the gun
James Morales
I have the mp2.0 5’’ FDE. By far the best polymer pistol I’ve shot (and I’ve shot a lot). I use it for USPSA production competition.
Caleb Morris
What the US lacks in pistols in modern times, they make up for having literally the greatest service rifle in the world.
Same thing that's happened to all the other American companies. Economic conditions in the US have made it such that the returns on investment required are so high that it's basically unachievable so the people that have money have been putting it elsewhere thereby starving American companies for development cash at a rate that's reasonable enough that they could turn out a competitively priced product. It's just become more profitable in the US to loot companies and use those assets to play money games rather than produce a product.
I dunno if it's the greatest. It refuses to retire mostly because upgrading America's service rifles would mean less money for the Air Force's money holes and shit like quarter-million per shot artillery shells.
The two words: "quality" and "plastic". For some reason (philosophy? I don't even know if its wrong) America can't put them together. Unfortunately, modern pistols are largely plastic, everything ends there.
They’d still be making the 3rd gens if they were making money off them. The future is now old man and police contracts and civilian sales are all centered on polymer framed striker fired gats. Let’s not forget that the m&p has been pretty succesful. Easily the most popular line in its class behind Glock
Owen Evans
Teething issues with the first batches, to be expected with an all new design by a new manufacturer. Problems have been sorted out and you’re left with an excellent gat with excellent ergos, trigger and fit and finish.
Isaac Jenkins
Why do you think you fucking retard The revolver side of S&W isn’t nearly as big as their AR and M&P line. I really doubt their profit issues are due to lack of interest there. S&W is doing fine, the growth of the market for firearms has just slowed down considerably. Time for another school shooting
Brayden Ross
The SD9VE is unironically one of the best plastic 9mms and it's priced for what a M&P or Glock or APX or lol 320 should cost.
Easton Ward
Better than security nine?
Connor Diaz
would it be possible to produce a double stack 9mm 1911 type pistol with the reliability of a striker fired tupperware pistol while maintaining a price point of around 600? i know the 1911 gets a lot of shit, but americans still make those. lets just forget how much they cost and what happened to kimber
Hard to believe those only go for 2 or 3 hundred. Seems to fit M&P holsters, picked up a random one and it fit right. First time I took it apart I expected the guide rod to be bent since I've seen that on some semi's, surprised how sturdy it was for plastic. Really interested to see how it holds up to a couple boxes of ammo.
Adam Richardson
Those 16 round magazines are expensive af though, like 40 bucks a pop.
Alexander Rivera
You’re looking at shit guns. The STIinternational line of 1911s are incredible guns. >slide so buttery you can rack no handed
Joseph Miller
>CAUTION CAPABLE OF FIRING WITH MAGAZINE REMOVED american gun owners are truly something
Liam Allen
That's one manufacturer, basically a custom shop/game gun, and didn't they quit making their 1911 line?
Ethan Miller
Except America makes the best service pistol in the world >P320
they dominated when everyone wanted 1911s and revolvers after they started being phased out, those companies wouldnt adapt. When they realized they should adapt, a mix of stubbornness and dumb company decisions limited their products. Colt and Remington are now shells of their former selves, Smith and Wesson has to sell out to survive and are only recently coming back, Ruger is make old bill turn in his grave
If there was a profit to be made making the 3rd gen S&Ws they'd still be making them.
Ayden Ortiz
I was thinking about this the other day. The 1911 is the only American handgun I really like.
Jordan Rivera
pretty sure Jerry Miculek uses the M&P as his competition pistol
Joshua Hernandez
Cz is your opinion but calling HK garbage is just being contrarian.
Zachary Nelson
>will colt stop making the only gun making them relevant in current year Doubt it.
Jacob Thompson
Nope, never. Even if they really go bankrupt, they’ll be bought and out and will continue to produce them
Sebastian Collins
They compete with each other, but the S&W has had more time to work out the kinks on the SD9 because it's a continuation of the Sigma they've had out since the 90s.
Anthony Nelson
>you guys think colt will ever stop making one of the most popular firearms in the U.S.? Gee, i dunno
Jason Martin
>competitor uses product so it must be good! Oh my god! You poor, pathetic, brainlet. He uses that gun, because he is paid to use that gun. It’s called a sponsorship, and it’s how ol Jer is able to make a living
Ironically I think the M&P series is excellent and the closest we've got to some Euro guns
>M&P 45 has a higher MRBF than G21, FNX, USP45, only beaten by HK45
The problem is smith did a god awful job on the M side of things >Absolutely fucked any chance they had of getting an army contract, when they should have been a prime contender.
I think Ruger is overtaking S&W again anyway, it would be exciting to see the .mil adopt a ruger (again), only this time mass issue it to a particular service
Dominic Clark
They weren't helped along the way by fuckheads in the USMC adopting Kimbers for MARSOC and Fleet MEU's
Brayden Anderson
You are waay undervaluing S&W's M&P's and the modern Ruger semi-auto's
Dominic Davis
>>M&P 45 has a higher MRBF than G21, FNX, USP45, only beaten by HK45 Big if true. Source?
Kevin Jackson
Fuck I'm trying to find the source, it's been several years since I've last seen it I'm coming up with ToddG's 62k round M&P9 test (2 jams).
I'll keep looking but it was long considered that the full sized .45 was the most reliable M&P, some had even theorized that to save on costs Smith had designed the platform around the .45 and downscaled it for the other calibers - 9mm ended up a problem child, but they put more dev into .40S&W - this also partially explains why Smith hasn't come out with a 10mm variant.
Either way it's a 10 shot with an excellent grip, but you can understand why that capacity is going to detract buyers despite its MRBF, because even the worst performer of the bunch, was a high cap G21 with something nearing 20k MRBF anyway.
I'm disappointed that they didn't take a harder look at the .45 with the 2.0 - it's still a 10 shot, getting it to 14 requires a fuck huge extended magazine, they should have redid the grip
Colton Gonzalez
Honestly for most people, a 10 shot 45 is about all that’s going to feel comfortable in hand. The USP is really edging it in terms of comfort, and the Glock 21 might be the worst feeling modern handgun
Nathaniel Rodriguez
To go further, the entire M&P line had issues on launch, early M&P45's occasionally had dead trigger issues, so the high MRBF isn't going to matter if your particular trigger is junk.
I recommend Apex kits on any M&P pistol
Justin Flores
this really, capacity is nice but some people who don't have leviathan hands want to be able to hold a doublestack .45 comfortably
Jackson Edwards
Any one is curious, that's missalice. Have fapped to dozens of her vids.
Evan Jones
Im with you in that the m&p is probably the best american that can compete with euro pistols. If m&p could make a PPQ tier trigger in that thing it would be golden. Also fix the 45, even if it means a larger frame like glock does to give it 13 round capacity.
Jace Ortiz
No. It's a double action and will always have a shit trigger and suffer in reliability because they're made more cheaply
Nathan Ward
bought an SD40 2 weeks ago for $300, i love the little fucker. american guns are still good, sometimes.
Grayson Diaz
That's ridiculous the hk45 has all kinds of issues. The glock can be shot and thrown out of a plane and still work