What was gun culture like in the Soviet Union?

Not soviet union per se, but both my parents grew up in Poland in the '60s and '70s. They both had to do Przysposobienie Obronne in high school and university which is kind of like ROTC, but everyone had to do it and it didn't necessarily lead to the military. It was mostly PT and simple doctrine stuff. They did also qualify for shooting. My dad couldn't remember on what though (he doesn't know much about guns) but based on his description I guess sks's and Mosins

Nonexistent like their food

I think I own your dad's training rifle. Ask him if this looks familiar.

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I actually used a couple boxes of Russian steel cases training .22lr my grandpa had lying around. Failed every shot out of my 10/22 and spit unburnt gun powder in my face/eyes every ejection. Genuinely the worst ammo I've ever shot. Also is seriously dirty

I'm assuming the ammunition must have been stored wrong (somewhere moist) or damaged in transport (rimfire ammo can have it's priming compound compromised from rough handling), or maybe that the Russians used stronger springs for their firing-pins to make up for the harder case rim, along with maybe some sort of extra grabby extractor (don't ask me how).

I can't imagine that they would settle for that kind of shit average performance, given how weapons being the one thing they never actually compromised quality on (Russian .22LR guns from that era seem pretty decent, if you look at the Margolin).

luckygunner.com/lounge/steel-cased-22lr/

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I had 5000 rnds of Russian 22LR ammo. It was manufactured just like the 22LR was made in the US over 100 years ago. I did not have too many duds but the powder residue did blow back into your eyes because of the steel case and it was generally shit.

>steel case .22lr
I'd never heard of this before, neat

What about other communist bloc states?

I know czechoslovakia had guns chambered in .32 for the commercial market.

Yours probably wasn't stored in a sewer. I imagine you don't get the greatest obturation with steel, though.

>What was gun culture like in commieland
It wasn't

he said it did remind him of the rifle he used but he said that they only used .22, I don't know if that's what that's chambered in

Dragunov was forced to give up his competition (mosin) rifles while he was developing the rifle we know his name by.

>gun culture
You wanna gun - you take a shovel and go to the nearest forest.

>Extremely limited
Not Really. From 1935 to 1954 you needed a "hunting licence" to get a long rifle. Hand guns were (and still are) prohibited. From 1954 to 60th your 22LR were free from regulation, no hunting licence required, still, you cold get your Mosin Nagan or Berdan without any troubles, process of getting of licence was simple. After Stalin's death and Khrushchev's rise to power, liberal gun policy ended and everything got regulated, including process of getting hunting licences.

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shooting range in every school basement

The government shot you with them

You have chosen the wrong place to ask. Lots of Yakov Smirnov style jokes, lots of stereotypes about ebil totalitarian state and no common sence whatsoever.

>but there did exist shooting clubs one could partake in, where .22LR guns would be lent to you for your visit
And in the first years after Civil war there were serious calibres avalible, like the Ross guns.
>You really had not right to bear arms in the Soviet Union though
Not quite. You could buy a shotgun or a rifle, go for hunting and so on. But all this stuff was heavily restricted indeed.

In school boys were taught the "beginning military training" where kids were taught how to use firearms on the shooting range.
>You wanna gun - you take a shovel and go to the nearest forest.
That's the criminal approach. On the other side, criminals used to manufacture guns of their own, mostly for .22 rounds

Yes it was exactly that box of ammo and everything. Stuff made my day 10/22 dirty quick and the amount of gunpowder left unburnt was very surprising

.22lr was readily available, biathlon clubs were extremely popular, the ammo was so widespread that kids usually grabbed them while the parents weren't watching and played with them ; usually, by chucking them into campfires and taking cover. (In fact, lots of children games in the USSR seemed to involve throwing dangerous shit, such as petrol soaked rags, medical alcohol bottles, .22lr and CO2 cartridges in campfires).

Hunting was existent, but mostly widespread around the higher tanks of the Party.

Guns were often handed out as lottery prizes (mostly rechambered Berdans, hunting rifles, and civilian .22s) and engraved military handguns were given as awards to meritant workers, political activists, officers and engineers.

Of course, the overall number of guns per inhabitant was much lower than in the USA and you wouldn't get close to a gun in your life if you openly opposed the Party, but if you wanted to become a sport shooter or a hunter, it was possible.

Oh, and speaking about food jokes, the daily calorie intake of the average Soviet citizens from 1965 to 1980 was higher than in Western European countries, and equal afterwards. It dropped heavily after the 1989-1991 period, reached Equatorial African level lows in the early 90s, and still hasn't climbed back up to the Brezhnev era levels.

It is. It’s a WZ-48, the Polish rifle trainer variant of the Mosin in .22lr

>What was gun culture like in the Soviet Union?

only the state and designated economic functions require firearms comrade. Your thoughts seem counterrevolutionary and I like the look of your room as it is bigger than mine so I am going to report you for asking and get your room while your teeth get pulled out in a basement

>1965 to 1980 was higher than in Western European countries, and equal afterwards

Ahem, I have spoken top people who were in queues for a whole day in Poland in the 80s just to get a 100gram meat ration and in their recollection there was a uniformed and pistol armed woman appointed to inspect the ration cards who was much hated and would take peoples rations for herself if she liked the look of them and have them arrested if they tried to complain. Stops being funny when the end of the recollection was that the father of one kid who's wife was arrested for complaining was taken in the middle of the night the next day and never seen again and neither were the kids, woman killed herself. Pole from SE Poland told me because one of the kids who vanished was his friend. Don't try and excuse the USSR its in living memory for many people. People were arrested just for owning western childrens books like winnie the pooh and used copy them onto toilet paper and smuggle them. The USSR was a fucking abomination and Russia should be perpetually ashamed of its role in history. Hungary 56, Czech 68, Solidarity, Latvia, Estonia. It was a statist Orwellian nightmare

were these camps for the children of communist party members?

Caloric intake was higher through a lot of the period beforehand as well. The Soviets avoided the brunt of the Great Depression and their economy grew rapidly from the 20's, being one of the fastest growing economies in the world, despite taking huge casualties in WWII.

Too bad the communists being hungry meme is so well entrenched. The fall of the Soviet Union was more due to corruption within the government which was exasperated by a planned economy requiring greater levels of power concentrated within the government, not an inherent failing of ideology.

The coffee riots were pretty wild tho.

>Oh, and speaking about food jokes, the daily calorie intake of the average Soviet citizens from 1965 to 1980 was higher than in Western European countries, and equal afterwards.

food queue Poland, Warsaw 1982.

"The shortage of most common products could make everyday life a nightmare. During many of the frequent economic crises, store shelves would literally be empty. Memories of huge shops supplied with only vinegar and Georgian tea are one of the most commonly recalled flashbacks to the communist period.

Furthermore, most products were subject to a rationing system which made some products available only to the bearers of special cards. All these inconveniences resulted in what is called a ‘queue culture’. People would queue for hours and days to get a washing machine, a pram or a pound of meat. Spontaneous queueing committees watched the order of queues, and retirees would make additional money by being a ‘stander’ (stacz in Polish) – a person who stands in a queue for somebody else.
"
culture.pl/en/article/10-mind-boggling-oddities-of-communist-poland

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brainwashed. Shame about all the people who actually remember it. You'll be able to fully vindicate your relatives who were in the party by creating a fictionalised revisionish version of how great it really was when every living person who remembers it was dead and you can go full throttle on lying about how life was really great based on the memory of an obnoxious party brat who got privileges the average Russian or east European could never dream of, like not queuing for hours to buy a small piece of meat..

>The Soviets avoided the brunt of the Great Depression

The demographic impact of the famine of 1932–1933 was multifold. In addition to direct and indirect deaths associated with the famine, there were significant internal migrations of Soviet citizens, often fleeing famine-ridden regions. A sudden decline in birthrates permanently "scarred" the long-term population growth of the Soviet Union in a way similar to, although not as severe, as that of World War 2.

Estimates of Soviet deaths attributable to the 1932–1933 famine vary wildly, but are typically given in the range of millions.[

>The Soviets avoided the brunt of the Great Depression
As a child, Mikhail Gorbachev experienced the Soviet famine in Stavropol, Russia. He recalled in a memoir that "In that terrible year [in 1933] nearly half the population of my native village, Privolnoye, starved to death, including two sisters and one brother of my father."[

ukraine is literally nothing but a huge field of corn, are you guys fucking retarded? the last time anyone had to starve in the soviet union was 1946, due to misorganization after the war.

>Oh, and speaking about food jokes, the daily calorie intake of the average Soviet citizens from 1965 to 1980 was higher than in Western European countries, and equal afterwards. It dropped heavily after the 1989-1991 period, reached Equatorial African level lows in the early 90s, and still hasn't climbed back up to the Brezhnev era levels.

kys lier

>Caloric intake was higher through a lot of the period beforehand as well. The Soviets avoided the brunt of the Great Depression and their economy grew rapidly from the 20's, being one of the fastest growing economies in the world

In 2008 Russian state Duma issued a statement about the famine, stating that within territories of Povolzhe, Central Black Earth Region, Northern Caucasus, Ural, Crimea, Western Siberia, Kazakhstan, Ukraine and Belarus the estimated death toll is about 7 million people

>Soviet Union
>Poland

are you retarded?

>>Soviet Union>Polandare you retarded?

Ah yes. The Poles were communist by choice were they? Russia had nothing to do with that?

You ex communist party brats really are scum

>Caloric intake was higher through a lot of the period beforehand as well. The Soviets avoided the brunt of the Great Depression and their economy grew rapidly from the 20's, being one of the fastest growing economies in the world

The Kazakh famine of 1930–1933, known in Kazakhstan as the Goloshchekin genocide (Kazakh: Goloshekındik genotsıd), also known as the Kazakh catastrophe, was a man-made famine where 1.5 million (possibly as many as 2.0–2.3 million) people died in Soviet Kazakhstan, of whom 1.3 million were ethnic Kazakhs; 38% of all Kazakhs died

It's still different countries you idiot, you can't come up with stories about Poland to make a statement about the Soviet Union

The last famine in the Soviet Union was in the 1940s, because of the war and bad administration / food distribution.

Logic alone speaks against "everyone in the soviet union starving", look at the fucking country, fertile land everywhere. Ukraine alone could feed the whole Union.

>Extremely limited

Secondary education had a permanent component of "Basic military studies" where students - children - were given serious military training - from operating firearms, first aid skills (and not just putting on a gay butterfly bandage, kids would actually be sent to practice giving injections among other things in a real hospital) and surviving a NBC war in general.

Just look at pic related. American leftists would get a Big Mac heart attack if they realized the amount of "guns in school" the "friendly unicorn paradise of the USSR" had.

And yes, they got to shoot them. Full auto too.
Once you had been through those classes disassembling-cleaning-assembling an AKM to a time standard over and over again + 2 years of mandatory conscript service, any thirst for funs you may have had was guaranteed to have gone away.

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>Caloric intake was higher through a lot of the period beforehand as well. The Soviets avoided the brunt of the Great Depression and their economy grew rapidly from the 20's, being one of the fastest growing economies in the world

The Holodomor (Ukrainian: Гoлoдoмóp); (derived from мopити гoлoдoм, "to kill by starvation"), also known as the Terror-Famine and Famine-Genocide in Ukraine, and—before the widespread use of the term "Holodomor", and sometimes currently—also referred to as the Great Famine, and The Ukrainian Genocide of 1932–33
—was a man-made famine in Soviet Ukraine in 1932 and 1933 that killed millions of Ukrainians that was part of the wider Soviet famine of 1932–33, which affected the major grain-producing areas of the country. During the Holodomor, millions of inhabitants of Ukraine, the majority of whom were ethnic Ukrainians, died of starvation in a peacetime catastrophe unprecedented in the history of Ukraine. Since 2006, the Holodomor has been recognized by Ukraine and 15 other countries as a genocide of the Ukrainian people carried out by the Soviet government.

Early estimates of the death toll by scholars and government officials varied greatly.According to higher estimates, up to 12 million ethnic Ukrainians were said to have perished as a result of the famine. A U.N. joint statement signed by 25 countries in 2003 declared that 7-10 million perished. Research has since narrowed the estimates to between 3.3 and 7.5 million. According to the findings of the Court of Appeal of Kiev in 2010, the demographic losses due to the famine amounted to 10 million, with 3.9 million direct famine deaths, and a further 6.1 million birth deficit

Guess what, during the great depression there were people starving in the US. Should we judge the US by that from now on, forever?

>Logic alone speaks against "everyone in the soviet union starving", look at the fucking country, fertile land everywhere. Ukraine alone could feed the whole Union.

I hope your fatt mutt ass gets to experience what happened here.

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barely available access =/= right to bear arms

cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/DOC_0000498133.pdf
cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP84B00274R000300150009-5.pdf

The people in Poland had a shit time in the 80's due to internal corruption within the government. Massive loans during the industrializtion period left the economy crippled and economic mismanagement on part of the Polish government led to huge shortages. The revolts and strikes started long before the food shortages, but the early 1980's were the culmination of it.

Much of the Bolshevik revolution began as part of an ongoing famine in Tsarist Russia. It's no surprise that immediately after fighting WW1, and a civil war that there were famines. Losing more than 2 million in WW1 and nearly 3 million in the civil war. Massively disrupted infrastructure and both a drought in one region and a flood in another compounded the already huge issue.

One Soviet trading corporation in New York averaged 350 applications a day from Americans seeking jobs in the Soviet Union

Let's remember that the great depression lasted for about a decade, and occurred without America fighting a civil war, overthrow of government, or experiencing anywhere near the amount of deaths as the Russians, losing just 0.13% of their population, compared to 1.94% of the Russian population (Just WWI, not the civil war.)

Obviously caloric intake figures are an average, the famine in Ukraine was probably partially intentional, because more than 5 million tons of food were exported during the famine. I'm not supporting the action taken, but it wasn't as though the great depression caused the Ukrainians to starve and the economy of the Soviet Union as a whole still grew during that period.

That would ony be equivalent if only a single state, Idaho for example, faced targetted mass starvation in the US during the depression. Try laying off the Vodka and use what brain cells you have left to think next time.

>The people in Poland had a shit time in the 80's due to internal corruption within the government

So communism enforced by a Russian military empire?

As or the rest of your drivel. YOu are an apologist for a broken and tyrannical system that kept huge populations in dysfunctional misery for 50 years. You should be handed over to people who lost relatives via your communist police state and they should be allowed execute you whatever way they please.

millions died due to the famines in 1930s Russia caused by communist policy. You're shitting on their graves.

>Obviously caloric intake figures are an average

or maybe you are a full of shit as the lying communists who created those fairyland figues

>So communism enforced by a Russian military empire
Corruption caused by undemocratic rule.

>As or the rest of your drivel.
AKA I'm not going to try and refute your facts, because my world view doesn't conform to them.

>millions died due to the famines in 1930s Russia
True
>caused by communist policy.
You're ignoring a lot of the other factors here, it's partially true, but not by a long shot the only cause.

>or maybe you are a full of shit as the lying communists who created those fairyland figues cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP84B00274R000300150009-5.pdf
Are the CIA communists now? That'd throw a wrench in the works.
There's dozens of reputable sources on this but I think the CIA one is pretty amusing.

really depends on the type of steel. i've seen some steel oxidize in 45 min.

>Quoting 1983 stats for 1930s

>caloric intake meme
Why are commies such fucking liers? This "higher caloric intake" bullshit comes from a 1984 source based on FOOD PRODUCTION not actual consumption. There's also a 1986 study also based on export of foodstuff.

The closest thing to a household consumption study was only performed in Moscow in 1986 or so, and Moscow citizens where about on par with Americans interms if calories. But not interms of actual diversity of foods. Thier calories where mostly grainstuff.

>this fucking tankie here
Gonna cite the "Secondary market" too?

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>liberal gun policy
>handguns were prohibited

>you can't come up with stories about Poland to make a statement about the Soviet Union
Why the fuck not?

ROTC on steroids is a pretty poor gun culture, you didn't have the rights to own those guns or using them at your leisure.

Dekulakization =/= famine due to collapsed economy

I mean I could give you data from the Food and Agriculture Administration of the United Nations but you should really look it up yourself. You don't wanna get reliant on people spoonfeeding you statistics. I know you're gonna cry about that one.

Criticisms of the bureaucracy are more Trotskyist perspectives than Tankie. Stalin was a pretty massive tit in a lot of respects.

Also, S E N D I N T H E T A N K S

Mostly because Poland was an independent Warsaw pact country with it's own host of corruption issues.

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>independent Warsaw pact country
No such fucking thing.

Its genuinely hard for me knowing a few people directly who lost friends or went though real hell under communism in eastern Europe (one girl I knew had her sister taken from the family and never seen again because she made jokes about her Russian teacher in school)to actually accept people like you exist. You should be ashamed of yourself. Not just ashamed but actually go and personally apologise to everyone who experienced what you are an apologist for, The food was shit, basics like razors or toothbrushes were hoarded because you never knew if you would get them again, children's toys were non existent (but party members would be able to buy western made ones for their children). People vanished. Peoples fathers, mothers, sisters brothers. Millions starved in the 1930s yes due to soviet communism but food queues were a fact of life under communism in the 80s. Queuing for hours just to get a scrap of meat that had to do a whole family. You could be jailed in horrific conditions and possibly die just for owning a book. Yet here you are. And what a cunt you are.

>Poland was an independent Warsaw pact country
>independent Warsaw pact country
>independent Warsaw pact country
>independent Warsaw pact country
>independent Warsaw pact country

What planet do you believe to be on?

But heres the thing you well fed red LARP enthusiast:

Instead of reading statistic about Potjomkins village I've talked to my grandparents. One of them travelled through the entire USSR on military assignment and saw its entire beauty.

To sum it up: Save your meaningless words and prepare your anus to contain the collected works of V. I. Lenin.

>Criticisms of the bureaucracy are more Trotskyist perspectives than Tankie.
I really don't think the specific distinctions in lionizing and revisionist scum are important. I would put Stalin, Lenin and Trotsky in the same pit next to each other as I filled it with cement, and I would invite their adoring fans to join them.

Tankies' gonna tankie.

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It was a man made famine created by the Soviets you dense fuck

Gun = Gulag.

>Poland was an independent Warsaw pact country with it's own host of corruption issues.
hahahahah
jak można być takim jebanym debilem
t. Polak

This. The very ones advocating for a socialist/communist government will be the first to have their ticket punched first. They actually think that their history of fomenting dissent and revolution with a democratically elected government would help them with the communist dictatorship they installed.

This. To sum up what Polaks have told me about the Soviet Union. "At least the Germans were humans". The translation might be weird.

>What was gun culture like in the Soviet Union?
If your found with gun, you go to the gulag.

Any proof on that one?

I guess all the NATO countries are slaves to the USA eh?

I'm not here saying the Soviet regime was perfect, or even good for a huge amount of people.

I could say the same to you about any number of the awful things the US or any capitalist country has done in the past. The banana republics of South America, overthrows of democratically elected socialist governments by the CIA, crippling trade embargoes on any country that doesn't conform to the American capitalist ideal. Maybe the systematic exploitation of the working class by corporations or massive wage stagnation even though productivity and technological progress has been able to support it for decades.

So we should ignore statistics? Great scientific method you've got there.

Man, it's like people just stop listening as soon as you mention alternative political viewpoints around here.

Stalin murdered 1.8 million by confiscating food from Ukrainian farmers because they were too independent, those that resisted were shot

>Any proof on that one?
becasue there wasn't an independed Poland
every decision our commie government made had to be approved by russia
if you'd actually know polish history instead of being dumb idiot you'd know this
>2018
>są ludzie którzy uważają że Polska była niepodległym państwem w komunizmie
ja pierdole

all those fat Europeans were a lie?

There was no gun culture in CCCP. I was 9 when whole thing collapsed.

I went to TIR (TИP) to shoot some shitty pellet guns at targets 20 feet away. That was the extent of the gun culture.

My dad had a hunting rifle he kept locked away. His buddies wanted me to shoot it at a hunting trip when I was 8 years old, but he insisted it would hurt me if I did. I think it was a shotgun.

Now I live in Kommiefornia and have a cucked AR among other guns.

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I mean. When a country executes your entire elite, occupies your country, and invades all other Warsaw Pact countries trying to overthrow their communist regimes...
The fact that the USA has done horrendous things does not change the fact that Poland was de facto merely a semi-autonomous republic.

>hahahahah jak można być takim jebanym debilem

www.doomedsoldiers.com/torture-methods-of-ub.html

thecuriousexplorers.com/europe/latvia/kgb-the-house-on-the-corner/

"It has been established that the NKVD and RB [sic UB, Urzad Bezpieczenstwa, Polish secret police] torture their prisoners terribly at the Chopin Street [police headquarters] in Lublin, at the Strzelecka Street [facility] in Warsaw, and in Włochy. The most popular methods of extracting confessions include slowly ripping off fingernails, [and] applying “temple screws” [i.e., clamps that crush the victim’s skull], and putting on “American handcuffs.” The last named method causes the skin on one’s hands to burst and the blood to flow from underneath one’s fingernails. The torture is applied passionlessly in a premeditated manner. Those who faint are revived with a morphine shot. Before the torture session [ensue] some receive booster shots [Pol. zastrzyki wzmacniające]. The torturers strictly observe the opinion of the supervising interrogating officer whether it is acceptable to allow [those] interrogated to die [….] At the infamous Lublin Castle [prison], because of the injuries inflicted during interrogation, mortality among the political prisoners reaches 20 persons per week."

Quoted in Marek Jan Chodakiewicz, "The Dialectics of Pain".“O czym nie piszą szmatławce,” Polska i Świat, no. 3, vol. 7 (1 July 1945), Hoover Institution Archives, Polish Subject Collection [afterward HIA, PSC], Box 61, Folder Polska i Świat.

But people kept on going missing in the 80s. Russian teachers in schools were used to identify 'suspect' families by monitoring children. There was a quota to be filled, so sometimes entirely innocent people had their lives ripped apart just to ensure a list was the right length. The kgb torture centre under Lublin castle was filled with cement. But it was in operation in the 1960s when people in the US were listening to the Beatles.

>I guess all the NATO countries are slaves to the USA eh?

Yes they are, eh?

>So we should ignore statistics? Great scientific method you've got there.

Yeah yeah "muh statistics, muh scientific method". What a higher being you must be.

Those who have lived it know far better what it was than you smugly looking at statistics released by a regime that routinely like to "boost" its stats.

Besides, statistics are not some magical weapon - the USSR liked to boast about its steel production all the while factory managers were holding their heads trying to figure out how to make anything with the utter shit that was churned out to "fulfill the plan" while absolutely useless for machine construction.

t. talked to an old metalworking master who used to manage an injection mold factory in the USSR.

Just to give you an idea about his rank in the system: He was allowed to travel outside the USSR at will. So he saw clearly what was happening on both sides of the fence.

I think you're replying to the wrong post there, mate.

Ah, the efficiency of communism

>Poland was de facto merely a semi-autonomous republic.

Under soviet occupation " semi-autonomous"?
How deluded are you?

>Yeah yeah "muh statistics, muh scientific method". What a higher being you must be.
Doesn't detract from the fact that they're going to be more reliable than anecdotes and stories.

>Those who have lived it know far better what it was than you smugly looking at statistics released by a regime that routinely like to "boost" its stats.
Except the majority of the stats we have today aren't from the regime, they're from the CIA with additional statistical work done by the UN.

>That's the criminal approach.
It's about "culture" thing. Every kid in European part of USSR played with WWII era ammo and/or explosives.

So you are an apologist for evil? Like a neonazi revisionist? You're a communist revisionist? That's your thing?

What I mean is that they can make some decisions themselves. Similar to how Ingushetia is "semi-autonomous".
Feel free to correct me. I'm no expert.

>Doesn't detract from the fact that they're going to be more reliable than anecdotes and stories.

>they're from the CIA with additional statistical work done by the UN.

The CIA analyzed the union to be rock solid and in no danger of dissolving in 1989 when it was plain as day to everyone inside that obviously things can't go on the same way.

Just look at the KGB preparing their golden parachutes in the form of the oligarchy still running Russia.

Besides, it's not like CIA and UN could just walk in the USSR ministries and ask for economic reports. So all their reports are as much pulled out of the ass as what the USSR officially published.

So yeah, I'll consider stories from people around me to be more reliable. And I will tell you to fuck off based on them.

It wasn't, either you were a party member and could get guns, you were some random pleb hiding guns, or you were a corrupt mom member with guns.

Poland was as independed as Hungary or Czechoslovakia was
AKA try to get away from Russia and suddenly entire warsaw pact invades you
dumb fucking vatnik

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Lublin, Poland - April 14, 2018: Plaque for Political prisoners of Lublin Castle torture centre

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I have a Soviet made 22lr bolt rifle. Pretty much everything is shit, even the iron sights arent straight, but the twist rate is very high and stabilizes 60 grainers and its fairly accurate. And it can take a beating

I don't think you understand me correctly. I'm saying that Poland's foreign affairs,as well as a major part of their internal affairs, were under direct or indirect control by the Soviet Union. The Polish government could make some decisions themselves, but those were minor.
This makes Poland semi-autonomous. Just like Ingushetia had its ministers killed,and cities bombed when they tried to declare independence. Just like how Chechnya too tortures and executes dissidents of both Putin and Kadyrov alike.

Is it more clear now? Poland was not independent, it was a subject with a functioning government operating on behalf of the Soviet Union with a separate, yet identical constitution.

>I guess all the NATO countries are slaves to the USA eh?
>muh whataboutisms
Classic pinko.

>whataboutism
check

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You dumb nigger, I was talking about the USSR, and you bring out Poland. It isn't the same thing, and the situation was thus different. It's as retarded as if I was saying that Arsenal AKs were great and that you told "no, look, my IO AK blew up, it's crap".

>Besides, it's not like CIA and UN could just walk in the USSR ministries and ask for economic reports. So all their reports are as much pulled out of the ass as what the USSR officially published.
Oh man, it's not like there hasn't been a long history of espionage and spying in both countries.

>The CIA analyzed the union to be rock solid and in no danger of dissolving in 1989 when it was plain as day to everyone inside that obviously things can't go on the same way.
Source?
Also it's pretty easy to say it was obvious when you've got hindsight. I'm not saying you're not wrong, the oligarchs are a reminder of that, but do remember you're looking at it from your historical perspective.

Great way to not acknowledge any of the arguments and still feel like you've got one up on someone.

No regime is perfect, both the Soviets and USA were horrible at different points in their reign. Screaming "whataboutism" misses the point entirely.