Why is it that lever-action rifles became more popular than pump-action ones, but the reverse was true for shotguns?

Why is it that lever-action rifles became more popular than pump-action ones, but the reverse was true for shotguns?

Attached: 10103129_1.jpg (1200x495, 47K)

cartridge diameter and pressure.

/thread

because lever action shotguns literally were never supposed to exist

This is untrue, Remington made pump actions in just about everything up to and including 30-06. There's nothing inherently weaker about a pump.

Later, when they had the metallurgy down.
The lever gun is an inherently stronger action.
I do love me some pump guns though

you don't know what you're talking about. there are tons of different lever and pump designs. there are level actions with shitty toggle locks and pumps with rotating bolts. the real reason is probably that pump is generally a better design, but was invented later so people were already used to lever rifles. except for a few designs like the blr and the sako finnwolf most level rifle designs predate pump actions anyway.

Spitzer bullets

What necessarily makes the lever stronger in this regard?

Pumps and levers are actuation systems, they don't dictate the strength of an action. Case in point: the Savage 99 and the pump action Remington Model 14 both use a tilting bolt. The model 760 uses a rotating bolt, just like a bolt action (or a BLR).

Hell, some guns have even used identical actions with pump and lever versions. Marlin did this with its low-power cartridge lineup until the 1930's.

pumps are weaker bc theres no caming action to keep the bolt closed on the round so it can fly open easier

Pederson and Remington solved this problem in 1913 with their spiral magazine design. Them Model 14 and 25 both used it with spitzers just fine.

Attached: wm_5769040.jpg (3264x2448, 862K)

How does it work?

the bullets twist as they go down the tube

Can they handle modern 30-06 or hot 45-70?

Attached: SpiralMagazineearly1880s_zps51c5b4af.jpg (1000x570, 142K)

Remington currently makes a 30-06 pump action, so, yeah.

How queer

People shyd from pump rifles after MLK

lever actions have a mechanical advantage when extracting the fired cases of high pressure cartridges, pumps don't. it adds to a clunky feel, and flat out extraction problems in pumps.
I'd put dollars to donuts that any modern pump rifle has a huge free-bore in the throat to lower pressure over most lever action equivalent. hell, Remington renamed the .280 Remington to 7mm Express, just so people didn't shoot it in 760s.

the 7600 series is garbage and the previous generation of 760s sucked too.

Holy shit this is brilliant, does this person still hold patent? Because if not why the fuck isnt everyone doing this?

John browning himself said lever shotguns were retarded but he still made one cause the US asked for it

He only made it because Winchester thought anything outside of lever actions would hurt their brand image.

Both take modern loads but the 7600 takes them better.
The 760 has minor issues with lockup. But its negligible. The issue is the 7600 locks better than the 760 makijg it more reliable than its predecessor. It also fixed issues with extraction.
It actually is a pretty decent family of rifles the 760 and 740 family.
Sucks remington went to shit. Killed the 740 line and ruined the reputation of the 7600 by upping the price and lowering the quality

are you serious?

Because that takes much more manufacturing effort than a straight tube. Because there's an even better option for spitzer bullets, a box magazine. Because anyone using spitzer bullets is using a bolt action or semi auto. Because people buy leverguns for aesthetics or purposefully archaic reasons like cowboy action shooting, and specifically do not buy them in modern spitzer calibers. Because it's a dumb fucking idea that was pointless even when it came out, since it was quite clear box magazines were not just the future, but were already well established technology. Because even if you ignore all logic and still use something retarded like a bolt or pump action, you can still use a proper magazine rather than a tube and not have to do that retarded spiral shit.

Attached: Winchester 1895 762x54r.jpg (600x292, 29K)

because you have to feed the cartridges back through that clusterfuck to chamber a new round. it isn't worth the trouble over a box magazine.

Besides the lever nugget I've never actually seen a lever gun with a magazine. Seems unholy tbqh. I dont know why you're so hostile to a spiral tube it seems like the next logical step in advancing tube magazine technology

No, it seems a good way to kill the reliability of a technological dead end.

Henry and others make boxmags.

Spiral tubes would be a nightmare and overweight the front of the rifle.
That and that much weight would require mounts to the barrel and fuck with the harmonics as the mag changes capacity

How is it making it unreliable? It seems like the spring is on a free rotating head that just rolls through a cam surface all the way back and just pushes and rotates the cartridges along with it. The only reliability issue I could foresee is if some shit got stuck up in the tube or the round was facing a bad direction when it reached the action and the bolt couldn't engage it properly to push it into the chamber.

I'll look into the henry and lolwut it wouldn't add more than a few oz. It's not like it needs to be much more than an extra mm thick and the fluting will cut down on that weight too

>How is it making it unreliable
Shoot a gun with a spiral magazine some time, maybe then you'll get it. They never, ever work right.
>if some shit got stuck up in the tube or the round was facing a bad direction when it reached the action and the bolt couldn't engage it properly to push it into the chamber.
So, instantly you can see two very likely points of failure. The rounds will not be facing the right direction, because they have all kinds of room to fuck it all up. It might almost be reliable with flat nosed, non-tapered cartridges, since they can't slip out of alignment as easily, but then why the fuck are you wasting time with a spiraled magazine?

It's a solution to a problem that was solved decades prior to its invention in a more simple and reliable way. It is the very definition of a dumb idea.

>I've never actually seen a lever gun with a magazine
your ignorance is not our problem

>it seems like the next logical step in advancing tube magazine technology
it's been tried. complicating the path a cartridge and the follower has to traverse is not worth the trade-offs, when box magazines exist.

Attached: BROWNING-BLR-LEVER-ACTION-IN-LIMITED-PRODUCTION-SCARCE-358-WIN_101024452_75508_8075F0F39ED75E09.jpg (1920x1080, 181K)

Here's the few I know off the top of my head: Henry Long Ranger, Browning BLR, Savage Model 99 (a design far ahead of its time, I wish they'd re-release them), Sako Finnwolf - Only the first two are new production, though.

wrong

primary extraction has nothing to do with action strength

Stigma from the poor Colt Lightning that never went away.

Not him but i own 3 pumpguns.
>2 3006
>1 257 roberts
They extract rounds like a retard trying to lose his spare chromosome

Which models specifically?

All 760s
Lockup is a chore because 14 fucking locking lugs in an interrupted thread.

Attached: 94110.jpg (800x355, 33K)

The 7600 has better lockup but honestly the only thing either excel at is hunting and killing martin luther king jr with

Attached: 111490.jpg (800x260, 19K)

>primary extraction has nothing to do with action strength
at no point in that post did I cite strength as a factor. I postulated differences in the throat based on Remington's desire to not have 7mm Express fired through a 760 even though they are dimensionally identical.
I cited the mechanical advantage of a lever vs a pump.

this doesn't disprove anything I said, and quarter bore is for homosexuals.

>Compounding leverage
Its the difference between lifting a child with your hands, and lifting a child with a teeter totter.

My 870 Wingmaster has a really smooth action, so I was considering a (used) 7600. Given its only intended purpose would be hunting, then I think it's still a good option.

more locking lugs is objectively better.

also,


who gives a flying fuck about MLK jr?

You dare mock 257 robert?
P A T H E T I C
Its like Flat trajectory and low recoil is undesirable in a round well suited to take out almost any north american game.

Attached: 300px-257_Roberts.jpg (300x279, 5K)

He was killed with a 760 3006 to the neck.
Honest opinion is that pump actions make a great deer rifle.
Really good if you stand hunt. Nothing really to get caught on.

Oh and its not the actual lockup. Its the issue of getting to to lock up

anything a .257 can do, a .264 can do better.
growing up, my dad used a custom mauser in .257 Ackley. even adding a bunch of powder capacity doesn't fix the ballistics problems of 25 cal bullets

>He was killed with a 760 3006 to the neck.
and archduke ferdinand was killed with a .380. your point?

>Nothing really to get caught on
wtf does a lever get caught on in a stand?

I'm not sure I understand you. more bearing surfaces is a good idea. it increases strength, and reduces friction.

What gun was he killed with again?
I want to collect a bunch of guns that put their mark on history.
John lennon
>charter arms 38.
King jr
>760 3006
Jfk
>carcano
Hitler
>ppk (allegedly)
I want to expand my list

If you own a 760 youll note that occasionally you will pump the action and meet resistance or a full stop and would have to draw back the action slightly and repump to get it to battery.

But it happens rarely
The 7600 design is just to ease the effort to get a round into the chamber

And short answer
>Give it a nylon tip
>Problem solved
Thanks Hornady

I would attribute that to the inherent problem with pump rifles. having a shit-ton of lugs isn't a problem for a bolt action or a lever action, and is an advantage. pumps run you into the problem of having to have long incline plane locking lugs, which progressively cam the bolt open, so you end up with needing this giant amount of stiff travel to unlock.

I want a functioning reliable modern pump gun.
I also want to buy less prevalent, modified, snowflake and in this case actually not better but one could argue worse if not the same for more expensive.

Like what is your thought process right now? I'm literally baffled at the level of contradiction.

Like being convinced to cut your leg off to be a cyclist.

You want X so you sacrifice ABCDE & F, in the end making X absolutely redundant.

flex-tip is a mixed bag and only really helps with big low velocity bullets. a tip soft enough to not set off a primer, flattens in flight with wind resistance and heat. it isn't buying you much.

>I want a functioning reliable modern pump gun.
not him, but why? a lever gat is a better option for high pressure cartridges. you can buy a pump rifle if you're in the market, but I've yet to see a better pump option than a lever gat in a high powered platform.

>Big low velocity bullets
So everything a lever gun is chambered in and anything someone would want a pump rifle chambered in.

Instead of a box magazine spitzer pump rifle I'd rather just rather have someone design a BAR/semi auto purpose built hunting rifle that wasn't 4-6moa.
>AR10 Ares SCR with wood furniture when

You are missing his point.

Buy nylon tipped ammo
"Whats wrong with a pump gun now huh?" and they literally think the answer is nothing.

They implied all you do is buy this round then your problems are gone and you have no need for a magazine except capacity.

>So everything a lever gun is chambered in and anything someone would want a pump rifle chambered in.
huh? you can get a BLR in 7mm Mag. go find me a reliable pump in that.

The point
I
---------------------
Your head

Read what I was replying to and what he was replying to dumbass
>Y no new production twist tube for pointy bullets?
>He outlays all the reasons why no one employs an antiquated at birth design from after the detatchable box magazine to "fix" tube fed rifles
>I outlay the one reason he left out, that if you want the ballistic improvement of spitzer for your .30-30 then a nylon tip means you don't need to change a thing about the gun

>Assblasted irrational anger at the existence of tube magazines
>This is the hill you die on
For pointy Bois in your tube mag it literally solves the problem. A box mag pump or lever action rifle is a goddamn AWB/Australian level abomination. Just buy a fucking AR10, M1a, or BAR

There is a guy with a pump action fightlite.
I cant for the life of me find it but it has a wood 1100 stock snd a custom handguard and pump.

pump guns are shit. battlefield vegas said their pump guns are disposable and last around 2 weeks on average before they break and they have to throw them away

Found it

Attached: Screenshot_20181013-223417_Instagram.jpg (1439x733, 393K)

I misunderstood your post and called you a retard. I was wrong and deleted it. I'm drunk

But what would be the purpose of it? The SCR is a 50 state legal rifle.
Hunting? Is he trying to avoid the mag capacity regulations for semi autos?
Is he not American? Clearly not because there's a US flag in the background.
Maybe he just wanted a pump action?

Just to do it.
Its in 300blk.
Would be better if it was 450 bushmaster.
I own an scr. Nice rifle

that is the stupidest thing I've ever seen.

do we really need to trolling this hard?

>Besides the lever nugget I've never actually seen a lever gun with a magazine.

The Savage 99 would like a word with you

Attached: wm_9158719.jpg (4599x1417, 527K)

I've got a couple model 14's, literally never had an issue with them feeding.

The problem was that they were very small, which made them susceptible to deformation and fouling. 760's like to be kept clean, while simultaneously not being easy to disassemble. So, fudds bought them, didn't take care of them and started having issues. Then they'd try to "fix" them. It doesn't take much forcing or prying to slightly fuck up the lugs, resulting in an unreliable or "broken" gun.

760's and 740's can often be bought really cheap in "non-functional" condition as a result. Strip them down, clean things up, debur a lug or two and they work fine.

My mind condition 760 3006 cost 200 bucks.
Coated in dust and barrel filled with sadust and cobwebs.
Works like a dream

just stopped by to say pump .22's are fun as fuck