Admiral Gorshkov frigate vs Italian FREMM

Since the first Gorshkov is officially in service(and its sister ship the Kasatonov is about to enter testing) to the painful issues with its long range SAM being finally ironed out, it makes sense to compare it to the worlds most powerful and advanced frigate in service


Tonnage
FREMM: 6700t>Gorshkov: 4500t

The FREMM is a much larger frigate

Range:
FREMM: 6800nm

Gorshkov: 4850nm

The FREMM has quite a lot more endurance due to having more crew space and range. The advantage here goes to the FREMM

Sensors:
FREMM: MFRA AESA radar system, UMS 4110 sonar

Gorshkov: Furke-4 Air search PESA, Monolit 34K1 surface search, Poliment AESA, zarya-5 sonar

Since very little information exists on both frigates' sensors, its very hard to make a comparison for them. Both seem to have very advanced Air track capabilities though. I'll consider them equal.
Armament

SAMs

FREMM: 16x aster 15(30km range, mach 3.5)/aster 30(120km range mach 4.5) in VLS

Gorshkov: 32x 9M100(15km range, mach 2)/9M96(120km range, mach 5.4) in VLS and 16x Sosna optically guided SAMs on the Palash CIWS mount(10km range, mach 2,6)

In terms of short range SAM firepower, both frigates are about equal. The Aster 15 is faster and has longer range, while the 9M100 and Sosna are in higher numbers. However the Gorshkov's advantage is that it can carry both both long range 9M96s in its VLS and Sosna short range SAMs, while the FREMM has to choose divide the numbers of Aster 15 and Aster 30s because they're stored in the same VLS.

Attached: ru_gor10.jpg (1024x611, 173K)

Other urls found in this thread:

google.fr/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.naval-group.com/fr/news/deux-fregates-de-defense-aerienne-pour-la-derniere-partie-du-programme-fremm/&ved=2ahUKEwjozcTlgYjeAhXUcsAKHfthBjgQFjACegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw2kw_8rIMF4ld85Jwg-lbDA
military-today.com/navy/top_10_frigates.htm
defencyclopedia.com/2016/01/02/top-10-most-powerful-frigates-in-the-world/
ria.ru/defense_safety/20180702/1523755997.html
3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/model/9feb1819-8d39-4fc5-887d-d7fa45edc19c/Type-055-∕-Renhai-WIP
twitter.com/AnonBabble

The Aster 30 and 9M96 are comparable in range, with the latter having a bit higher speed. I couldnt find info on their maneuverability.

The gorshkov theoretically has an advantage in long range SAM firepower due to having 2 times more VLS cells than the FREMM. However the 9M96 experienced guidance teething problems that were the cause of the Gorshkov's 5 year delay. There are rumors that the SAM is still not 100% ready for service, which if true makes the FREMM superior because the Aster 30 is in service.

CIWS

FREMM:2x 76mm OTO melara cannons(120rpm, 16/40km range) and 2x 20mm oerlikon RWS(700 rpm, 3km range)
Gorshkov: 1x Arsenal A-192 130mm cannon(45rpm, 23km range surface, 18km range AA), 2x palash 30mm CIWS(10000rpm, 5km range)

The FREMM has better long range cannon firepower due to guided vulcano shells(Russian 130mm guided shells are only on paper ATM), more cannons and higher ROF.

However the gorshkov wins hands down in missile killing ability because of the very high ROF of the palash CIWS(76mm guns are of dubious usefulness in anti-missile work).
Anti-Ship/ASW

FREMM:
8x OTOMAT mk2 AShM(subsonic sea skimming, 180km range), 4x OTOMAT MILAS ASW missile(35km range)

Gorshkov:
16xP-800 onyx AShM( 600km range, mach 2.5 sea skimming)/16x3M54 Kalibr 2 stage AShM(660km range, subsonic 1st stage, mach 2.9 second stage)/16x 91RT2 ASW missile(40km range, mach2)/16x 3M14 LACM(subsonic, 2500km range)

FREMM: 2x SH-90 helicopters with MU-90 torpedoes(23km range), 6x MU-90 torpedoes in tubes

Gorshkov: 1x Ka-27 helicopter with APR-3 torpedos(3km), 8x PAKET-NK ASW/Antitorpedo torpedoes(10km range(ASW), 800m anti-torpedo range)

While the Gorshkov has more, faster, and longer ranged ASW missiles than the FREMM, the FREMM has more and faster helos with much better ASW torpedos. The Gorshkov has a slight antitorpedo defence advantage due to having more Paket tubes. Both are about equal in the ASW department, with the FREMM having a slight advantage perhaps.
In terms of antiship and land attack capability the Gorshkov wins hands down because it has missiles with much longer range, more of them, and they're much faster.

Conclusion:
Endurance: major advantage for FREMM
Sensors: equal
AA: slight advantage to the gorshkov
AShM and land attack: Major advantage for the Gorshkov
ASW:slight advantage for FREMM

Despite its much smaller size, the Gorshkov compares favourably to the FREMM in most metrics. The gorshkov has more individual killing power while the FREMM is better at performing in a blue water task force. However the FREMM has much larger numbers. It remains to be seen if Russia will build enough Gorshkovs to satisfy its naval needs.

Attached: PUBPOz2.jpg (2362x1176, 632K)

bump

bamp

Upcoming FREMM variant is supposed to be "modular"
>Just has containers stacked on deck

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nice thread
I'd like to know the difference between a FREMM, the french one, and the RN T-45

The french FREMM has 1 76mm gun, has no option for mounting the Aster 30, and instead of otomats has 8x exocets and 16x SCALP LACMs.

It also is 700t lighter, has less MU90 torps and no ASW missile.

The type 45 is more of a lght destroyer. It has 48x Aster 15/30 SAMs, 8x harpoons, phalanx CIWS, and a 4.5 inch gun. Its overall superior to the FREMM in firepower.

Looks like everyone wants to go on troll threads about US fighters

Is there a reason you chose the ASW focused Italian FREMM instead of the more general purpose French FREMM?

Also the FREMM has AESA radars, that in itself gives it an advantage over the Gorshkov's PESA radars.

The French FREMM has inferrior Anti-Air due to not having access to the Aster 30. Also, its SAMs are inferior to the otomat mk.2


>Also the FREMM has AESA radars, that in itself gives it an advantage over the Gorshkov's PESA radars.

The Gorshkov also has an AESA, the Poliment radar that guided the 9M96/9M100 SAM. The PESA radar is just search and track.

bmp

>its SAMs are inferior to the otomat mk.2

I presume you meant AShM, and Otomat are nearly identical in performance to Exocet.

>The PESA radar is just search and track.

Meaning the Gorshkov has inferior radar.

Huh. Dear diary, today OP was not a fag

So basically gorshkov wins because its better in the only relevant metric ( AShM amount )
Thanks

>fight nu_russian navy in 2018
>half a dozen sea skimmers come over the horizon, if they weren't shot down me E-2 supported super hornets already

>fight USN in 2018
>3 dozen SLAMM-ER's and stealthy LSRAMs come over the horizon, with jamming support, HARMS, and JSOW from multiple axis of attack

>16x Sosna optically guided SAMs on the Palash CIWS mount(10km range, mach 2,6)

This has already been cancelled. The Palash/Palma development was stopped due to favoring the Pantsir-M with its longer ranged Hermes-K missiles. Gorshkov Class frigates will only carry the gun mounts of the Palash.

>32x 9M100(15km range, mach 2)
9M100 is six packed for a total of 192, pic related . This also helped cull the Palash development.

Due to the problems with Redut, it seems UKSK has one upped the other VLS. Rumors of it having the capability to fire 40N6 is spreading. However, this is also countered with rumors that Redut carry 48N6DM (Dal'Naya) with 250km range.

>Gorshkov: 4500t
I believe it's around 5,200t-5,400t.

>9M96(120km range, mach 5.4)
There's still questions about this whether 9M96E2/9M96D has 120km or 150km range.

>Gorshkov: 1x Ka-27 helicopter with APR-3 torpedos(3km), 8x PAKET-NK ASW/Antitorpedo torpedoes(10km range(ASW), 800m anti-torpedo range)
Gorshkov carries anti sub Kaliber (91R1)x16 with around 40km-50km range depending on source.

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>it seems UKSK has one upped the other VLS.
What do you mean by this?

>I presume you meant AShM, and Otomat are nearly identical in performance to Exocet.
Then the french and italian FREMM dont differ in the anti-ship department


>Meaning the Gorshkov has inferior radar.
the FREMM's and Gorshkov's AESA fulfill the same functions

UKSK carries anti-ship, anti-sub and land attack missiles while Redut carry anti-air and anti-surface missiles.

Speculations from Russians, notably paralay in the English forums. 40N6 anti air missile can fit into UKSK, and there's momentum pushing for such development. This means UKSK can take over the Redut's job.

>This has already been cancelled. The Palash/Palma development was stopped due to favoring the Pantsir-M with its longer ranged Hermes-K missiles. Gorshkov Class frigates will only carry the gun mounts of the Palash.

Source?
Also doesn't a stockpile of sosnas exist, at least for the army? The palash's missile racks are integral to it and they can always be mounted if need be.
>I believe it's around 5,200t-5,400t.
That's full load


>Due to the problems with Redut, it seems UKSK has one upped the other VLS. Rumors of it having the capability to fire 40N6 is spreading.

>This also helped cull the Palash development.
A major mistake since putting all your missiles in one basket is a recipe for disaster.

Officially the redut is fixed, and lingering problems with the 9M96 are just rumors like the UKSK being able to carry the 40N6.

So they could replace the AA VLS with UKSK like how the Chinese done with their Type 052D and Type 055.

>AWACS spotting sea skimming missiles
You really have a poor understanding of physics
>Implying those F-18s wont be shot down by Russian land based air defence

The LRASM isnt in service yet and wont be for the next few years, by that time which the Zirkon will be commissioned and the Kinzhal will be in larger numbers.

The HARM isnt designed for Anti-Ship work

The JSOW isnt sea skimming

>and the Kinzhal will be in larger numbers.
Implying the Russian building more MiG-31.

There are almost a hundred non-upgraded MiG-31s that can and will be modified to the MiG-31K.

They still need them for interceptor role and the.

Un least the MiG-41 program won't be a cluster fuck like the Su-57.

>They still need them for interceptor role and the.
They can still perform interception role.

>The HARM isnt designed for Anti-Ship work
false

>The JSOW isnt sea skimming
never said it was lol

>>AWACS spotting sea skimming missiles
>You really have a poor understanding of physics
false, you can do cooperative engagement of sea skimmers with E-2 and sm3 already lol

why they didnt slapped pantsir m on it?

Pantsir-M is still undergo field testing at the moment.
They won't because those MiG-31K have to be reserved for anti ship operation.

Lol

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That's like saying the F-18s of the USN cant be fighters because they' have to be reserved for anti-ship operation.

Thats a lovely LARP post you've got there fren

>The french FREMM has 1 76mm gun, has no option for mounting the Aster 30
That is wrong
The FREMM DA will have Aster 30 instead of the MdCN
And as of today, every French FREMM in service can change their MdCN for Aster 30

source?

google.fr/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.naval-group.com/fr/news/deux-fregates-de-defense-aerienne-pour-la-derniere-partie-du-programme-fremm/&ved=2ahUKEwjozcTlgYjeAhXUcsAKHfthBjgQFjACegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw2kw_8rIMF4ld85Jwg-lbDA
If you can read french
If you can't:
>Moreover, the FREDA will be equipped with 32 anti-air missiles Aster 15 or 30, more capable than the Aster 15 on the ASM FREMM

The Gorshkov is just the equivalent of the LCS, and the Freedom Class is far better than that Russian scrapheap.

Finally, it comes down to the size of the vls used
An Aster 15 needs a Sylver 43 (for 4.3 meter long) when an Aster 30 needs at least a Sylver 50 (5 meter long)
The French FREMM are equipped with 16 Sylver 43 cells (for the 16 Aster 15) and 16 Sylver 70 for the MdCN (which are longer than the Aster 30)
Those Sylver 70 are 7 meter long and can accommodate both a MdCN or an Aster 30

Only if Almaz Antey agrees, the company has an iron grip on Anti Air systems. Not to mention Redut has a short and long version. Long Version on the Gorshkov while Short Version is on Gremyashchiy Project 20385 frigates.

>Heavy guided missile frigate is an equivalent of a glorified patrol boat
Project 22160 is the equivalent of LCS, retard.

Attached: 22160 vasily bykov (3).jpg (1141x900, 385K)

>Also doesn't a stockpile of sosnas exist, at least for the army? The palash's missile racks are integral to it and they can always be mounted if need be.

Same problem like the Poliment-Redut, problems with data link with the missile pass a certain range. They just recently solved the Poliment Redut problem so if they continued the Sosna program it could've also took that long or longer since it is not as priority as Redut.

Lol no, 22160 is a glorified patrol boat, literally. It is shit and very expensive compared to superior Chinese fast attack craft. Unlike LCS that has the vaunted modular equipment.

>Falling for the old "well the newest Chinese/Russia/Indian [thing] LOOKS like an Apache/F22/Arleigh Burke THEREFORE..." trick

Try harder, please.

Attached: project 22160 infographic.jpg (2263x3181, 973K)

well the russians claim its a heavy patrol ship
but in a typical russian way the armament of the ship suggest otherwise
in reality its just more hardcore lcs on a smaller package

Is there any advantage in going for 1x Aster 15 over 4x Sea Ceptor? (quad packed)

where is the hangar supposed to be? below the landing spot?

Not every ship needs one, for example Aussies are buying 12 Lurrsen OPV80 that don't have a hanger, but have flexible mission modules under the flight deck if needed, or up to 2 small RHIBs and 1 bigger RHIB

This is for the Offshore Patrol Vessel role

Attached: OPV80.jpg (2880x1908, 392K)

Point taken.

That seems really dubious since the army already accepted the sosna into service. If there were problems, the army wouldn't use it, the same way it doesnt use the S-350.

im asking because the wiki page says it has one, but i dont understand where that is supposed to be (assuming it's correct).

Maybe the design isn't finalized, or that picture/info is out of date?

Between the 2 red small boats in middle picture

Here it's visible.

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cool, thanks

Below the modular deck you can see a hangar for an assault craft. I'm kinda curious how they're going to release a modular towed array if they need to release an assault craft.

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No, that's where different mission modules are based. It has a retractable hangar

The 9M96/9M96E2/9M96D family of missiles are also being used by S-300 and S-400 systems. But they still encountered the problem with the Poliment Redut.

Can the F-18 carry a ballistic missile under the fuselage?
I think not.

An actually nice and informative thread about Russian gear.
Today OP wasn't a fag.

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>Poliment Redut.
i thought that russia was basicly getting the aesa radar of the s400 and just slap in on the ships

>productive thread about russia happens in prime time eu
>literally the smallest shitposting ever
>meanwhile in few hours it will be primetime us
>shitposting will just explode

The naval S-400, dubbed 'Krepost', is different from the Poliment-Redut. The Krepost is the one which should've gotten S-400 radars (PESA not AESA afaik) but was cancelled because the politicians wanted to go uniformed vertical launch storage bins instead of the cylindrical launch systems used by S-300FM and Krepost. So they got Poliment-Redut, which was supposed to be for frigates and lower but it seems they also would use it for bigger ships.

The Admiral Nakhimov refit does not list Poliment-Redut as on the list of equipment being installed, instead it will get S-300FM just like 1 of 2 systems on the Pyotr Velikiy.

why would they put a pesa instead of an aesa? it doesnt make any sense unless they dont have some as advance as the polyana d4m1 for their ships (which makes a lot of sense..)

A few things:
- while we don't know exact capabilites of electronic equipment, Furke radar is advertised as having 200km range and 30 rotations per minute antenna, while Kronos Grand Naval has 300 km range and 60 rpms. I would guess, that 5P-20K is similarly weaker.
- Gorshkov has 50% more crew, which indicates much less automatization - and that hurts combat management and reaction times
- I wouldn't underestimate capabilities of 76mm against missles
- FREMM has CODLAG propolsion, that is both faster and allows for silent runs against submarines, using only batteries.
- I am almost certain that FREMM can't have 8 AshM and Milan at once. Milans occupy te same space, so it's rather 4+4

>The type 45 is more of a lght destroyer
The Type 45s are more than 10000 US tons? How the heck is that a light destroyer?

S-300PMU3 (S-400) started development in the 80's upto the 90's, AESA isn't mature at that time and they have a shit ton of experience with PESA, their foray into naval AESA started in the 2000's with the Poliment.

Both ships are inferior to Renhai anyway, so this discussion is moot. Why not talk about Renhai instead? Truly an impressive ship.

>Carry less missile than both the Korea Destroyer and US Ticonderoga.
>No land attack missile
>No anti ballistic missile

The only good thing aboout Type 055 is its side hull RADAR array, but little information is know.

military-today.com/navy/top_10_frigates.htm
defencyclopedia.com/2016/01/02/top-10-most-powerful-frigates-in-the-world/

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One of the most active vatniks is Canadian.

>the FREMM's and Gorshkov's AESA fulfill the same functions

Gorshkov has a PESA search and track radar.

Gorshkov has both AESA and PESA, for redundancy since their AESA is not as mature as their PESA, although their PESA can be considered one of the best.

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can somebody explain to me why did the russians mount Kinzhal on mig 31s since they have a large nubmer of attack and bomber aircraft like su24/34
and various tupovlevs
is it too big or is it about mig 31 speed?

It's about MiG-31 speed

MiG-31 flies near space where there is far less friction.
MiG-31 flies fast.

Only the MiG-31 can fly hight and fast enough to give the missile more range.

There are plan to mount it into Tu-22M3M, with 3 Kinzhal replace the Kh-22. But no official confirmation yet.

>There are plan to mount it into Tu-22M3M, with 3 Kinzhal replace the Kh-22
I wonder if it's more optimal than Kh-32.

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>But no official confirmation yet.
ria.ru/defense_safety/20180702/1523755997.html
Also, 4 Kinzhals, not 3,

>you can do cooperative engagement of sea skimmers with E-2 and sm3 already lol

SM-6 you mean, which has been done already.

Gorshkov doesn't have search and track AESA.

It would be more interesting to compare the Horizon/Horizonte class to the T-45, they fill the same role.

>humanitarian relief
thats codeword for importing and feeding niggers

>gibs are protected better than the border

>- while we don't know exact capabilites of electronic equipment, Furke radar is advertised as having 200km range and 30 rotations per minute antenna, while Kronos Grand Naval has 300 km range and 60 rpms. I would guess, that 5P-20K is similarly weaker.
Even if this is true, both frigates' missiles have the same range and the FREMM can't exploit its greater range much.

>- I wouldn't underestimate capabilities of 76mm against missles
Against supersonic ones that the gorshkov uses, gatling CIWS is much better
>- Gorshkov has 50% more crew, which indicates much less automatization - and that hurts combat management and reaction times
More crew means more hands on deck when repairing damage and allows for less strain during shifts. The gorshkov has the sigma battle management system which is equal to the latest Aegis.

A destroyer lighter than 9000t

Fair enough, but I still don't believe that modern Russian electronics can compete with Western systems. We know, that Russia is behind in military tech, and developing most advanced systems for secondary-importance systems is unlikely. Crew size and low cost of frigate seems to reflect this.

Don't get me wrong - this is quite impressive ship, but devils in details.

what on earth are you talking about aesa radars are by default decimetric

imagine its belly full with them
now thats the definition of terror

>which is equal to the latest Aegis
Equal to baseline 10 in what regard?

look at that beautiful Buyan next to it .............

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PPA is not a FREMM variant, i's new. And they're going for the slightly smaller version of it rather than the "full" one.

I believe they're going for a mix of versions, actually.

why the fuck does Germany have trash pandas?

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Fur farming gone wrong

Can anyone post more Renhais? It's a pretty impressive ship.

>recreated by yours truly
3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/model/9feb1819-8d39-4fc5-887d-d7fa45edc19c/Type-055-∕-Renhai-WIP

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the enemy navy will be so struck by its sexyness that it wont even realise the incoming missiles