Are hollow points more deadly than fmj?

.45 is naturally subsonic, so, no, .45 isn't pushing that kind of velocity. Secondly, 9mm is generally superior to .45 when you're looking at multiple rounds on target in a given period of time. You're comparing things (with false data, even) in a vacuum, and thinking fuddlore = reality.

Why would you pick the lightest .45 and compare it against the heaviest 9mm if you're not full of shit?

But wouldn't a hollow point 45 make a bigger hole than a 9mm hollow point making speed less of a factor because bigger hole

Because Jow Forums is about being the winner, and by the parameters , he wins... whatever you get for winning on Jow Forums.

naturally subsonic? nigger do you understand that there is more than one way to load a bullet, and the variability can be greater in a single caliber than across two different calibers? 45 can be loaded weak as shit and light hot 45 super can outclass factory 10mm

>muh nin milymeetur is actualy wat duh nahtzees designed duh schwere gustav to fire originully it so pawuhful

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So how would you rate 10mm jhp? Was looking at some 170gr jhp ammo but at 70 cents a round it's not the cheapest shooter.

>b..big hole good....fuh five make biggest hole so it better! it feel good squeeze trigger and make big bullet come out! nine milluh...miller...millum...uh, duh nine smaller so I not like!

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> deadlier
maybe
> cause more trauma(which could lead to increased risk of death)
yes this has been proven for a long time

most people dont carry practice ammo, heavy 9 and light 45 are common defense choices. It's not an outlandish comparison and it shows that regardless of 9mms advantages, it does not have the same wounding potential as 45.

>If
>Can
And hotloaded 9mm and 10mm will sitll both outperform it in every practical way. Your argument is:
>Special snowflake .45 is better than plinking 9mm, so therefore .45 is better!
Most .45 loads are subsonic. Most 9mm loads are not.
If you know you can't defeat facts with facts, why even bother? No handgun round is particularly good at killing things, and the difference between 9mm and .45 is so negligible that 9mm is preferable due to quicker follow ups, which any handgun round requires, and capacity.
Pretty fucking rad, but trying to shoot it fast sucks. Same with 9x25.
Except that the wounding potential is so close to equal between them that they might as well be identical.

Cant you read senpai, according to this genius 9mm will BTFO of weak 10mm.
>huh huhuuhh silly tin mimeeter is ony wun mimeetr biggur den sooper nin mimeeter so it big n ghey n slow it no keyp ub wit fast stronk nin meemeeter

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Well how would you rate 40sw vs 9mm?

>Things I never stated
That said, you can get more rounds on target quicker. The whole point of 10mm is to not be weakly loaded, or you just wind up with .40, which 9mm is most definitely preferable over.
Shot-for-shot in a vacuum, and actual, practical results are entirely different things. I can appreciate that living with autism is hard, but stop sperging out so much, you might enjoy life more.

.40 has better barrier penetration, but its a compromise caliber that doesnt do anything significantly better than 9mm or .45
The hard truth 9mm fanboys will never understand is that the ONLY pro it has over both .40 and .45 pistols is capacity.
Thats literally it.
Both .40 and .45 can be loaded to outperform 9mm by a large margin.
>things i never stated
Yeah but youre such a brainlet I can already see your weak arguments, theyre the same as every other 9mm fanboy.
Example, after they are shown clear evidence that 9mm is only superior to .380 .32 .25 and others, they immediately jump to the
>hur all pistol calibers are practically duh same so all that matters is capacity
Lol ok keep telling yourself that.
>more rounds on target easier
Ah yes, I see youve never fired a quality handgun in larger than 9mm.
Maybe if I lived in a country where 80% of people werent obese 9mm would be my choice.
For me? Its the .45ACP.

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I carry a nine or a 380 depending on the weather, I don't have stock in 45. If the question is which is arguably better, 9mm has proven itself as a functional round. If the question is which is more likely to be fatal to get shot by, I would argue 45 all damn day, special snowflake round or not.

Would you reccomend hst for a ruger security 9? Its a sub compact

Will Jow Forums ever definitively prove the pistol caliber arguement? How long have we been arguing over the big 3 now? 30 years?

No, holla tipz are a meme.

Flat nose FMJ for pistols.
FMJ that tumbles quickly for rifles.
Anything else is meme cuck ammo.

>m-muh overpenetration!
No such thing. Exit wounds fuck people up.

I kekd so hard reading this one in retard voice

Jesus fuck you're dense, and you're so far up your own dogmatic ass you refuse to accept facts. You're the same type of fudd that thinks 7.62x51 is a better infantry rifle round than 5.56. Let my try to use small words and pictures.

All handgun rounds are, in fact, verifiably and truthfully, pretty bad at killing people and rarely result in a single shot kill. It's not just capacity, the ability to shoot fast is big. No matter how much machismo you have, you will shoot 9mm faster, more accurately, than .45.

Comparing best results of each Federal HST, given five shot averages:
9mm 124gr +p
>Avg 18.3" pen depth, .66" expansion, 1168fps
.40 155gr
>Avg 17.2" pen depth, .67" expansion, 1084fps
.45 230gr +P
>Avg 14.9" pen depth, .79" expasnion, 844 fps

So congratulations; with .45, you're sacrificing the velocity needed to punch bones or tissue and keep going, with early deceleration, sacrificing the ability to put more rounds on target, all for 0.13" of expansion with poorer energy transfer as it travels, possibly not even making it through ribs/sternum, and most likely not able to get into the spine from the chest.

Argue it all you want, the science disagrees.

Federal makes HSTs specifically for subcompacts; microHSTs. Probably your best bet.

This may have been true a decade or two ago, but not anymore.

Congrats OP, this shit thread is way better than the one about hollowpoints on page 10. All we need is that tripfag that only uses fmj's to show up and you'll had a turd in a blender that will float to page 1 for a week.

>No such thing.

As always, when looking for bad outcomes, NYPD is the default. This is back from '98, so maybe FMJ technology has improved since then.
> In New York City during the last two years, seven of the bystanders shot by the police were struck by bullets that passed through other people. The report released Thursday covers shootings from 1995 and 1996. Of the six innocent bystanders struck by hollow-point bullets fired by police officers in the Transit Bureau, one was hit by a bullet that ricocheted and another by a bullet that passed through an object. Of 15 bystanders shot by conventional, full-metal-jacket bullets, five were hit by bullets that had passed through another person and two by bullets that had gone through an object.
> Forty-four police officers accidentally shot themselves or were accidentally shot by other officers over the same two years, according to the report. Of the 40 officers shot by full-metal-jacket bullets, two were hit by ricochets, 17 were hit by bullets that passed through other people and two were struck by bullets that passed through objects. Of the four police officers shot by hollow-points, one was hit by a bullet that passed through another person.
> Fifty-six suspects were shot and killed by police officers over the last two years. Forty-one of them were killed by full-metal-jacket bullets, 14 of which passed through other people first and one of which first passed through an object. Fifteen others were killed by hollow-point bullets, four of which passed through other people first."

Depends. In rifle bullets, yes. They will typically enter and exit the target, which means they have energy to spare. So stretching out that energy slightly by expanding the bullet will dump more energy. This means bigger wound size, larger stretch cavity, more hydraulic shock if you subscribe to that.

In pistol boolets it’s a more careful balance. A .45 that is going, say 500 FPS and somehow magically stretches to an inch and a half but only penetrates an inch will have less of a chance of killing than a 9mm going a thousand, only expanding to .45 an inch, but penetrating 18 inches of tissue.

Obviously these numbers are wildly off, but it’s for the sake of simplicity. Pistol rounds are more of a balance between penetration and expansion than rifles.

A .45 will obviously expand more than a 9mm, but depending on grain, powder charge, and barrel length, a 9mm may penetrate further. Of course that’s not the end all, be all and different things come into play.

>Good .45 and 9mm JHPs expand within 1/10th inch

Lmfao no they don’t you nogunz faggot. Good .45 expands to .71-.76”. 9mm that actually penetrates expands to .45-.55” and that is a hard and fast rule. Penetration and expansion are inversely correlated. Hence why we had cops in 1980s who were selecting 115 grains that actually expanded but didn’t penetrate (see: Miami Dade FBI shootout where the bullet stopped short of his heart)

If you're not carrying the hottest, highest energy JHP load that your weapon can handle, you're a bitch. In other words, Buffalo Bore.

>155gr .40

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>I don't understand, or care about, what actually happens to said JHP once it enter the target
You really out to read: Because everything you said except .45's expansion was wrong.

>5.56 is the same as 7.62 terminally
>people without weak trap wrists can’t shoot .45acp as well as 9mm
>comparing 9mm+p while hamstringing the other calibers
>ridiculing “machismo” unironically whole being this mad

When did 9mm babbys get to be so reddit?

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>no source
>implying bystanders are my problem
nope

It's not that 9mm makes the same wound track as .45, and I don't think any advocates of 9mm can argue with the 1+" expansion of certain JHP .45s, but that the wound track and penetration modern JHP 9mm makes is sufficient to cause the trauma that will result in incapacitation, provided you hit the important bits, which is easier to do with a cartridge that recoils less, and which you get more chances to do in a single magazine.

And you have the hit the important bits and crush them. A motivated attacker is still a threat even if that extra 3/16" on the expansion radius of a .45 managed to graze an important bit that a 9mm would have missed.

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.40 S&W is just a shortened 10mm that basically ends up being the same shit as 9mm because it's been significantly reduced in power compared to 10mm to keep recoil managable for bitches.

When the fuck did anyone say 5.56 and 7.62 were terminally identical?
>Hurr durr must b weak
No matter how strong you are, you'll shoot the 9mm better than you'll shoot the .45.
>Hamstringing other calibers
Not even, those are the comparable loads between the calibers Federal offers. We can go through others, if you'd like. At the end of the day, 9mm can't be beat until you get into hot 10mm/9x25. The only one even remotely upset is you, and it shows.

>.45 230gr +P
>Avg 14.9" pen depth, .79" expasnion, 844 fps
>844 fps
>+P
???

>implying bystanders are my problem
Cool for you. Keep on keeping on. My kids are opposite my bedroom with the stairwell between us. I don't have that luxury.

Unless you're using bullets that cant penetrate a few layers of drywall, your kids can be hit regardless.
You're better off selecting a round that will end the fight as fast as possible.

That's what happens when your round is large and heavy.

>ends up being the same shit as 9mm
Not at all really, nogunz detected.

10mm and 9mm fags have trouble accepting that .40 S&W was a better and more successful round. It’s a great round and can be gotten for very cheap right now as retarded cops switch to the 9mm because of the FBI report. But that’s not surprising considering their founder. Pic related

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And a FMJ is that bullet, because it penetrates better?

> giant glock
what's the advantage of the BT vs a glock19 or glock17 ?
I had the original, the Steyr SPP. The trigger was complete dogshit and the AR-style charging handle was a bit on the lame side.

>Better and more successful round
It's literally the exact opposite, but hey, why use facts and evidence when you've got some hot opinions?
Not anymore, because people seem to forget that development didn't just stop twenty years ago.

No, standard pressure .45 is about 830 fps.
+P is like 950.

You clearly are unfamiliar with the subject.

If it was full funmatic, or you're expected to engage at the distances where a stock and red dot would help, but can't carry a rifle.

If it's good enough for Geneva, it's good enough for SD.

Yes.
Unless you hit the CNS, all you can hope for is a psychological stop.
Exit wounds are traumatic, and cause rapid loss of blood pressure.

>what is mens rea
>from "Florida Handgun Laws"
shot, and the one wounded or killed by a bullet any reasonable person would have known was likely to over-penetrate its intended target, are entirely different things.
If your “shoot-through” of a legitimate target tragically injures or kills an innocent person, the defense cited in Myth #3 will be torn apart in mere seconds by the opposing attorney, with a single devastating cross-examination question. “So, Mr. Defendant, you disregarded this obvious danger your chosen ammunition presented to innocent people, because you admit you expected to be presenting a different and much greater danger to those same innocents?”
It goes to an element called mens rea. Mens rea means an intent to commit a crime, or a level of negligence so gross that it rises to a culpable (i.e., guilty) standard. The good person who fires a gun at a violent criminal in good faith, making their best effort to hit that criminal and stop the threat he presents to innocent human life, clearly has justifiable intent.

You're clearly unfamiliar with physics or how weight affects velocity, one of the two.
And you get even more blood loss from expanding ammo, unless as you said earlier, it tumbles/yaws.

>9x25 is actually pretty wicked. .357 Sig is also bretty gud
Retard detected.
9x25 sees incredibly marginal increases over 357sig even out if long barrels. It reduces capacity while not offering better performance.

If he misses, it should be easy to prove that he missed because of the stress induced by the criminal shooting at him, or by the criminal ducking and bobbing and weaving as he fired. In other words, it’s not hard to show that the proximate cause of the bystander’s injury was the action of the criminal, not the defendant who fired at him. or should have known would go through and through the criminal—the only “backstop” for the bullet, even if he placed the shot perfectly—everything has changed. He has recklessly disregarded the safety of people who might predictably be behind that criminal, unseen by the shooter because of the tunnel vision that we know is more likely than not to occur in such an encounter, or because the body of the criminal who had to be shot simply blocked the shooter’s view.
Anyone who believes that over-penetrating bullets are nothing to worry about in a gunfight owes it to himself (and to his loved ones, who will be affected by the post-shooting ordeal in court) to go to a legal library or online and look up “deliberate indifference.” While doing so, he should also look up “reckless and wanton disregard for human life.”

Looks like we found the ill-informed autist that's going to argue this thread to the bump limit for fake internet points.

So how would you rate a 44Mag 240gr JSP at 1400 fps?

>gets called out on how his numbers are retarded
>>U JUST DONT UNDERSTAND PHYSICS!!!!

You've prbably never even seen an exit wound either.

.40 S&W was adopted for widespread use while 10mm was dustbinned
>.40 S&W has performance approaching .357 magnum in the lighter iterations (see:135 and 155 grain) while offering big caliber damage
>not better than 9mm

Go look up felony murder.
Completely btfos your entire argument.

>Anyone who believes that over-penetrating bullets are nothing to worry about in a gunfight owes it to himself (and to his loved ones, who will be affected by the post-shooting ordeal in court) to go to a legal library or online and look up “deliberate indifference.”

Go look up felony murder first.

>.40 has better barrier penetration

Retard.

youtu.be/mUxE9vNgt8E
youtu.be/j2lwNjafHS8

I'm worried about the bullet going through the guy. So I use JHPs.
> Don't, that renders the bullet ineffective. Use FMJ.
What makes it more effective?
> It's more likely to go through the guy

Anyway, rest assured I'm working those failure-to-stop drill with the little blue bastard every damn week after listening to Jared Reston's horror story.

I have, I'm a lawyer. If you carry fmjs and not hollow points you can easily be sent to prison for manslaughter. There is extensive literature available for this claim from the Lethal Force Institute and case laws. In my case many of them listed in the book "Florida Handgun Laws" by David S Catz. And you posted your deliberate indifference publicly. You should really reconsider owning firearms if you know so little about firearms laws or have such a disregard for human life.

>Marginal increase of performance
>Not offering better performance
Except for any situation in which the round hits something prior to hitting the target, going through a body longways, or going through an arm into center of mass. That said, it's impractical as all fuck and I'd rather have .357.

>I'm going to call the one using publically available information an autist! That'll make me right!
So you genuinely do not understand how added weight makes rounds slower, got it. 230gr +p is, in fact, 800+fps. Federals 230gr HST +p is 844, their tactical bonded +p is 887. Federal's 185gr +p is 1002, at .59" expansion. Hornady Critical Duty XTP +p is 965. Liberty Civil Defense 78gr +p is 1844. Notice a trend yet?

>.40
>Performance approaching .357 magnum
Full retard. .357 Sig outperforms 9mm, .40, and .45, by margins that aren't at all negligible, but somehow .40 can outperform .357 Magnum.

This.

Nothing makes FMJ more effective in handguns. Like I said, he's working on information twenty years old at the newest.

>I'm worried about the bullet going through the guy. So I use JHPs.
You should be more worried about misses, and a protracted gunfight.
An fmj that goes through a bad guy and at least 2 walls is so unlikely to kill other people that you should prioritize other concerns.

>What makes it more effective?
I just explained what makes it more effective in my previous post. Did you stop reading half way through?

Why don't they just tell people the laws?

depends. thats too simply of a question and im not going to write you a 10 page paper

Name one .40 load that can match the performance of Tac-XPD, VOR-TX, or XPB.

So you can have more rounds in the same size gun and put them in someone faster and more accurately fucktard

10mm pistol can load and cycle 40 just fine. No reason not to buy a 10mm for the hotter 10mm loads and swap back to 40 as you please

>You should be more worried about misses
I am, I just have a lot more ability to manage a miss then I do preventing a FMJ bullet going through some guy's torso, unless I use bullets that explicitly expands to prevent that.

> I just explained what makes it more effective
Yes, exit wounds, which I said I explicitly do not want. So, I just mentioned that I was pursuing CNS hits under a timer.

Look, I don't care if FMJs are twice as deadly as JHPs. I want the bullets in the guy, not outside him. I'll make due with shooting him twice as much

Headspace

Fuck that user, user. Exit wounds provide less blood pressure loss than good expanding ammo anyway.

Hollow points not only suppose to do more damage, it's also suppose to help from over penetrating what ever you're shooting.

>Outperform
Reading iz hard. Reread what I said

>do work for me
Not sure what loads you’re even talking about what look at what I found after 20 seconds of looking
>shopcorbon.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=84_72&product_id=219

There is not a single .40 load that comes close to .357 magnum performance, period.
>Links Pow'R Ball
HAHAHAHA
Doesn't even expand as much as good 9mm.

Has not bothered my glock in about 1200 rounds of 40, nor has it bothered any other shooter. NOT recommended, but isn't blowing guns up. Take it as you will, ymmv, namaste, etc etc.

.40 doesn’t come close to .357 magnum

357 magnum
>158 gr (10 g) JHP Federal = 1240 fps

.40 S&W
>8.74 g (135 gr) Underwood JHP = 1,400 ft/s (430 m/s)
>10.04 g (155 gr) Federal HST =1,160 ft/s (350 m/s)

.40 is a very powerful round, expands very well, and there are lots of choices out there.

> Using Underwood for .40 A&W but the slowest .357 Mag round he can find
He may have asked for it with his wording of 'not a single load', but you're still better than that, user.

Now link the Underwood .357 Mag loads.

>.40 is a very powerful round
It's really not, though. Compare any two loadings available for .40 and 9mm, and .40 is either 'better' to extremely narrow margins, or is identical to 9mm. In the case of HSTs, 9mm outperforms .40.

Yeah, the statistics you used is totally why you're on the deep end of the spectrum for posting like this.

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Those are the specs for those rounds. You can't argue with facts, user, no matter how much you dislike them. Feel free to present your own.

This is kind of been my line of thinking about it.

fragmentation and lack of penetration makes me nervous about HP rounds.
If the things could penetrate from shoulder to shoulder while expanded correctly I'd be less nervous about it. Still exit holes are always bigger than entrance. If the wound track is small entry, expands in size, then stops, it's a smaller over all wound size in length and width factored in doesn't make up for the non-destroyed tissue.
If you wanted to shoot down a tree, shoot it till it falls in half, would you pick a round that goes all the way through, or one that goes in part way and expands a little bit with a small hole that goes to bigger but stops half way. You're doing more damage overall with the former rather than the latter in my opinion.

For stuff like 9mm if HP's actually caused an exit wound like a traditional FMJ does I'd think it'd be pants on head stupid not to use them.
So are we all cops shooting into crowds here or what?

Hi Mr. Lawyer, when are you going to move to New Jersey and tell people they'll get arrested for carrying hollowpoints instead of FMJ's?

You're so fucking autistic you can't even get trolled properly.

>So are we all cops shooting into crowds here or what?
Nah, you're a big boy. You know your routes and your trouble spots where rule 4 may or may not be an issue. Choose your ammo type accordingly.

Where are the nipples of this semen demon? They've be very very disproportionate if they were above the shirt being pulled. I hope it's photoshoped due dumb porn exporting laws

Do I have to post this every time in a "STOPPAN POWAH" thread?

specops.pl/vortal/download/files/shooting_to_live.pdf

Chapter "Stopping Power"

Probably an A cup with implants. If they don't have enough skin, the nipples end up too high.

>Choose your ammo type accordingly.
Gee do I want the ammo type that is intended to inflict the most damage, or the ammo type that is intended to inflict the most damage under certain circumstances.

I'd kind of like HP rounds that are just maximized to do what they do and not this fucking legal bull shit.

>9mm
>bettter at punching through bones than fuddy five

Asshole, faster and lighter bullets like 9mm deflect more off bones.

Everything about cosplayers is doctored. Those boobs only exist digitally. She's flat as a board IRL.

good point user

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