9mm vs .40 S/W

You seem a little upset brother

Be nice- he could easily be both.

10mm

.357 magnum

For a handgun, any of (9mm, .40, .357sig) will do handgun things just fine, and 9mm is cheapest mm. .40 and .357 hit a little harder, but give up a little capacity and rapidity -- you can really make a good argument either way, but there's no bad choices here, so you may as well go with the cheap one.
For a carbine, though, .357sig is a definite winner; it just gains more from a given barrel length than the others. So if that's an option, I'd encourage you to go with it. If not, 9mm, and use +P+ when in carbine mode.

Both are fine for typical CCW needs. Ones cheaper, lighter recoil, and offers meaninglessly more capacity(usually). The other pokes a marginally bigger hole, works a lot better with low tech bullets, and in general may be marginally better where extra penetration is needed. Only real reasons to pick the .40(imo) would be:
1. woods gun but you don't want a .357 or 10mm for some strange reason.
2. you refuse to carry ammo other than WWB
3. ease of caliber conversions.
4. cheapness of quality used guns in it
Personally i skip right over it, if i want to carve a bigger hole then there's .45, if i want more energy/penetration with good capacity then there's .357 sig, and if i wanted an autoloader for woods defense then there's 10mm. If you approach caliber selection from the frame of mind of having a niche problem you're primarily concerned with then .40 just doesn't really come up, for everything else 9mm works good enough.

THis is stupid.

.40 is more powerful than .45 you can also get it cheaper than all of the other cartridges you just mentioned. If you want the most powerful cartridge that isn't much more expensive than 9mm go with .40

.40 is best for cuck states like CA where you can’t capitalize on the increased capacity of 9mm anyway.

OP just go to a range, try out both, and take whichever one you like better.

Buy a .40, you can usually convert it to not only .357 SIG but 9mm as well. Ignore any memers who shit on .40, it's actually a great round.

>.40 is more powerful than .45
Simply incorrect. With top of the line loads .45 ACP is over 20% more powerful than .40 S&W within typical comparable weight ranges. We're talking roughly 480ftlbs vs 590. Although sense i said "make a bigger hole" instead of "more powerful" that doesn't really matter anyways. IME top end .40 usually expands to around .8", top of the line .45 acp routinely gets a hair over an inch. .45 is a bigger improvement over .40 than .40 is over 9mm in terms of energy or expansion.
>If you want the most powerful cartridge that isn't much more expensive than 9mm go with .40
That's just silly. If you're really concerned with getting what's the best for a particular job then you shouldn't half ass it to save 6cpr and buy a round that barely does it better than 9mm which is also typically going to be around 6cpr cheaper than .40 is. IME assuming all brass new manufacture ammo you can usually get 9mm for around 20cpr shipped, .40 for around 26cpr, and .45 for around .32cpr. If you consider an extra 6cpr to be barely more expensive and totally worth the increase in price then that would make .45 barely cheaper than your current ammo preference with an even bigger increase in performance to justify that cost. The cost to reward ratio is higher with the .45 making it the better choice even when price is considered.

S/W= Short and weak.
Stick with 9mm in this case, cheap as hell for shit that's not a .22 and metric shit ton of load options.
SW was cop-out round for law enforcement who wrists were to racked with carpal tunnel from keyboard patrol to handle the spicy 10mm.
Can confirm Gov ditching for nines again.

Not to mention if something goes horribly wrong all the 9mm and .45 is going to disappear fast, .40 will be right there for you though.

>Simply incorrect. With top of the line loads .45 ACP is over 20% more powerful than .40 S&W within typical comparable weight ranges. We're talking roughly 480ftlbs vs 590. Although sense i said "make a bigger hole" instead of "more powerful" that doesn't really matter anyways. IME top end .40 usually expands to around .8", top of the line .45 acp routinely gets a hair over an inch. .45 is a bigger improvement over .40 than .40 is over 9mm in terms of energy or expansion.

the most powerful .45 ammo is 450lbs where as .40 you can get more than 500lbs of energy.

You might be thinking of .45 Super, which just isn't a fair comparison.

>That's just silly. If you're really concerned with getting what's the best for a particular job then you shouldn't half ass it to save 6cpr and buy a round that barely does it better than 9mm which is also typically going to be around 6cpr cheaper than .40 is. IME assuming all brass new manufacture ammo you can usually get 9mm for around 20cpr shipped, .40 for around 26cpr, and .45 for around .32cpr. If you consider an extra 6cpr to be barely more expensive and totally worth the increase in price then that would make .45 barely cheaper than your current ammo preference with an even bigger increase in performance to justify that cost. The cost to reward ratio is higher with the .45 making it the better choice even when price is considered.

This entire blurb is predicated on your misconception that .45 is more powerful than .40. It isn't though.

Where do people get the false notion that .40 is only slightly better than 9mm? Every Youtube video I've seen with an apples to apples comparison of the two shows .40 to be significantly better. Also cost isn't as much of a factor, yes PRACTICE rounds for 9mm are dirt cheap, but quality defensive ammo is about the same. Also you can always buy police surplus .40 for cheap.

>the most powerful .45 ammo is 450lbs where as .40 you can get more than 500lbs of energy.
It's becoming clearer and clearer that you simply don't know what you're talking about. .45 ACP +P frequently eclipses 500ftlbs of energy. Comparing similar weight rounds leaves .45 acp with a considerably higher amount of energy. Not that any of this really matters considering they're both low velocity handgun rounds readily capable of acceptable penetration. For instance here is the aforementioned 590ftlbs load:underwoodammo.com/collections/handgun-ammo/products/45-acp-p-185-grain-bonded-jacketed-hollow-point?variant=7865919668281

This is considerably more energy than .40S&W is capable of attaining even with a 5gr lighter bullet, even top of the line 180gr loads top out at under 500ftlbs.
>This entire blurb is predicated on your misconception that .45 is more powerful than .40. It isn't though.
As i've now proven rather thoroughly, with comparable weight bullets the .45 is quite a bit more powerful. Although this is really all an aside point as i was rather clear on multiple occasions that .45 was desirable do to it's ability to carve a larger hole than .40 NOT because of it's energy. .357 sig makes a lot more sense for that sort of thing with it's 600+ftlbs and considerably higher velocity.

I have both. I like both but I like my .40 S&W better - it’s bigger, hits harder and is pretty commonly found. There are lots of pretty cool rounds out there too -Corbon comes most readily to mind.

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You’re a retard. I’m not even going to address your purposefully misrepresented points but you’re wrong all around. Go do your homework dumbass

Triggered .40fag without a leg to stand on. The real retards are the people that bring up ftlbs as if its THE valid and direct means of comparing two handgun rounds performance.

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Why do you caliber tards always compare the heaviest and lightest boutique rounds when you want to make a point? 180gr .40 is ass that's usually loaded to 9mm pressures.

>Why do you caliber tards always compare the heaviest and lightest boutique rounds when you want to make a point?
They're almost the exact same weight you nigger, that's literally what being fair is. An unfair comparison would be finding some meme 90gr loading and comparing it to a 230gr one.
>180gr .40 is ass that's usually loaded to 9mm pressures.
What kind of pathetic shit is this? 180gr is by far the single most commonly carried weight for .40 S&W, particularly by LEOs. Almost all of the top of the line .40S&W carry loads are 180s, with a few lines offering choices in 165.

Your whole premise is based on plain wrong and misleading information and you’re a retard (450 ft lbs va 590ftlbs)then go on to say it’s useless. Lmfao

>Your whole premise is based on plain wrong and misleading information and you're a retard
Put your money where your mouth is if you want to be taken seriously and explain what you mean by this. In a fair comparison with top of the line loads of nearly identical weights i showed that .40 S&W was certainly not more powerful than .45 ACP. You come off as nothing but an immature contrarian who's effectively saying "nuh-uh, you're dumb!" like its a serious counter argument.
>then go on to say it’s useless
Literally never said this, in fact in my original post i said that it was a perfectly fine round. I even carry/shoot .40 fairly frequently myself.

Nope. You're either screwing up barrel lengths or giving .45 the benefit of overpressure ammo (+P or Super). Compared apples-to-apples, .40 and .45 are as close as you could ask for; since you've activated my autism, let me go grab a bunch of numbers.

Underwood standard-pressure (light)
(Note that Underwood states velocities from SAAMI standard test barrels, which are different lengths for different cartridges.)
.45 120gr Xtreme Defender
>1320fps (5" SAAMI)
.40 115gr Xtreme Defender
>1400fps (4" SAAMI)
+80 fps with 1" less barrel (I estimate +180fps at 5" bbl.); small win for .40

Doubletap standard-pressure (medium)
.45 185gr JHP
>1200fps 5" bbl.
.40 180gr JHP
>1050fps 3.5" bbl.
>1140fps 4.5" bbl.
3% lighter and -60 fps with 1/2" less barrel (I estimate -20fps at 5" bbl.); slight win for .45

Doubletap standard-pressure (heavy)
.45 200gr JHP
>1100fps 5" bbl.
.40 200gr JHP
>990fps 3.5" bbl.
>1100fps 4.5" bbl.
Same velocity with 1/2" less barrel (I estimate +50fps at 5" bbl.); slight win for .40

Buffalo Bore +P (medium)
.45 +P 160gr JHP
>1180 fps -- Colt Gold Cup 1911 (5-inch)
.40 +P 155gr JHP
>1318 fps -- Custom made 1911 with Nowlin (5inch barrel)
>1249 fps -- Taurus PT 100 (4.9 inch barrel)
3% lighter bullet, +70-140fps (6% to 12% faster); slight win for .40 +P

So given the options
>cherry-pick the one loading (180gr) where .40 seems to consistently do worse and ignore the ones where it consistently does better
>compare +P to standard-pressure, rather than standard to standard or +P to +P
>disregard the difference in SAAMI barrel length (should gain 75-100 fps, for 14-19% more energy; 490fpe -> 550-580 fpe)
You chose "all of the above"?
Well, thanks for making it clear you're not interested in the truth.

You argue with me in everyone of these threads and you get proven wrong everytime. This time by someone else.

No its not fair though. You compare light for caliber with light for caliber, or compare Heavy for caliber with heavy for caliber. Apples to apples.

Unless you think it is fair to compare 147gr 9mm with 230gr .45

Actually top of the line is 135-165. Basic bitch .40 is 180gr.

See

Fuckdammit, I forgot to mention the weight difference for the Underwood XD ammo. The .40 is over 4% lighter, but that's not enough to account for its being 14% faster (estimated).

Buffalo bore .45 +P 160gr JHP is 1250 fps, not 1180
buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=359

>+p ammo
>overpressure
We aren't talking +P+ here, arbitrarily ignoring within spec +p ammo for .45 is about as valid as ignoring anything other than WWB for one caliber because "i don't like those numbers". Your whole list is a cherry picked selection of only the loads where .40 does better than .45 that you had to select from 3 different manufacturers, ignoring anything that didn't fit your narrative.

>120gr extreme defender vs 115gr xtreme defender
Literal meme bullets so far outside of common ammo weight ranges as to make this point academic at best. 120gr +p still outdoes the 115gr load by a measly 37ftlbs.
>Calling 2000grs a heavy for caliber load in .45 and 160grs medium
Absolutely hilarious. Again you have to pull out light for caliber meme bullets in .45 to try to make your point. The only fairly comparable bullet weights in both calibers that are reasonable carry choices, and therefor actually worth talking about in terms of the calibers practical power for serious use would be 180 and 200gr with the former being far more common than the latter. That is why i chose it.
>muh barrel length
Using BBTI as a reference one can expect approximately a 61FPS drop with a +p 185gr round going from 5" to 4". applying this to the underwood figures would still leave the .45 with more energy than the lighter 180gr loading by 49ft/lbs. The story is likely the same for 200gr rounds with a cursory examination of the data, but as BBTI lacks data on that weight ill hold of on any firm claim.

In any reasonable discussion of the two rounds performance using reasonable top end rounds for carry instead of BS cherry picked meme round comparisons the .45 is CERTAINLY not weaker than the .40 and is in fact SLIGHTLY more powerful with all things being the same. As has been my central point the whole fucking time.

With 10mm you'll have a handgun that can actually kill people, and in a carbine it would be downright murderous. Basically a .357 rifle.

9mm. There is no measurable difference in lethality between any of these combat calibers from .38 special on up and you can fit a lot more 9mm into the same size magazine.

>pathetic shit
You really have no idea what you're talking about do you.

Fuck me, you're absolutely right, somehow I had the 185gr open.

>Unless you think it is fair to compare 147gr 9mm with 230gr .45
That's literally what you're advocating by saying "compare Heavy for caliber with heavy for caliber."
>Actually top of the line is 135-165.
Really, care to support that with something other than paper performance figures like ft/lbs and fps? almost all serious users im aware of use 165gr or 180gr loadings. The latter of which is far more common and offers far more market support in terms of top tier defensive loadings.

What if you want a gun in .357 sig that doesn't currently exist? How impossible would it be to get one in .40 and have it converted? I've never considered such a caliber conversion before so I know literally nothing about it.

Depends on the gun. IIRC it's a bad decision for some designs but totally a thing for others but i've only really looked into CZ 75 and beretta 92s and even then not in much detail. what did you have in mind?

>but i've only really looked into CZ 75 and beretta 92s
While I like both of those guns, neither of them seem like good choices for .357 SIG - or any other blasty caliber that is harsh on guns. HK should just releasefFull size USPs in both .357 SIG and 10mm to finally shut everyone the hell up. I can't think of a more perfect platform for "Magnum" auto calibers.

>Your whole list is a cherry picked selection
No, my list is an overview of the whole range of bullet weights which can be found in both calibers, from light to heavy, and considering both standard and +P loads. I covered three manufacturers because that's how you cover the whole range -- e.g. Buffalo Bore has little to no light weight loads, neither Underwood nor Buffalo Bore have much for standard-pressure .45 ACP, etc.
I went browsing through those three manufacturers' on-line catalogs looking for comparable .40 and .45 loadings, and every pair of comparable loads I found is listed.

>of only the loads where .40 does better than .45
Literally false. See the 180gr comparison?

>The only fairly comparable bullet weights in both calibers that are reasonable carry choices, and therefor actually worth talking about in terms of the calibers practical power for serious use would be 180 and 200gr
If the other data points offend you, ignore them. You'll still see I did give numbers for BOTH 180gr and 200gr: .45 won one and .40 won the other (by practically insignificant amounts in both cases).
You, on the other hand, selected only one -- which just happened to be the one that supports your narrative. It sure smells like fresh picked cherries around here, but I'm not the one doing it.

There, corrected below:

Buffalo Bore +P (medium)
.45 +P 160gr JHP
>1260 fps -- Series 90 Colt Gold Cup, 5-inch
>1248 fps -- Series 70 Colt Gold Cup, 5-inch
>1251 fps -- H&K USP Tactical, 5-inch
.40 +P 155gr JHP
>1318 fps -- Custom made 1911 with Nowlin (5inch barrel)
>1249 fps -- Taurus PT 100 (4.9 inch barrel)
3% lighter bullet, -11 to +70fps (-1% to +6%); dead heat

>9mm vs .40 S/W
>everybody's sperging out over .40 vs. .45
Jow Forums is so retarded sometimes...

>You, on the other hand, selected only one -- which just happened to be the one that supports your narrative.
I selected it because it's by far the most commonly carried weights that can be directly compared. Nobody is carrying 160gr .45 acp and rather few are carrying 200gr .45 or .40 S&W. Ignoring +p loads when comparing the power two calibers are capable of isn't "offering a broad selection of data"(paraphrase) It's simply trying to skew the data and influence conclusions. When comparing reasonable top end loads with actual reasonable carry weight rounds the .45 wins in terms of power even when adjusting for bbl length. As i've repeatedly said the difference is almost certainly meaningless in the two calibers and difference in expanded diameter is a much more valid metric if we're really looking for a pissing contest but then this whole shitstorm was in response to somebody claiming that .40 was the more powerful round of the two for carry as if that were a counterpoint to saying that the .45 would make larger holes.

You'd think 10mm would have shut them up by now.

>.40s&w
>A cartridge that does absolutely nothing better than a 9mm while doing several things significantly worse
.40s&w only exists because the FBI was too limp wristed to use 10mm Auto and didn't want to admit that the round they invested millions of dollars into developing was an absolute fucking joke.

>Ignoring +p loads
But I'm not ignoring them.
You're the one ignoring the only apples-to-apples +P comparison I could find because you don't like the bullet weights.

>10mm
fuck that, gimme that 45mm from Colt Koch

Holy shit i actually just looked at what you're talking about. You actually think that bringing up out of spec and officially unrecognized .40 +p ammo in a weight range waaaaay outside of what anyone reasonably would carry in .45 is a fair comparison to in spec .45 acp +p loads? That is literally bananas. I guess i should amend my point made in previous posts since i had honestly missed that:

When comparing reasonable top end loads with actual reasonable carry weight rounds the .45 wins in terms of power even when adjusting for bbl length. However if you compare in spec .45 ACP with out of spec .40 +p or proof rounds for that matter loaded to who knows what specifications then maybe that won't always be the case.

Happy now?

The main problem with .40 S&W is that people think of it as 10mm Short instead of what it really is, 9mm Fat.

You've got it backwards actually, 10mm does nothing that .40 already does because almost all commercial 10mm ammo is cold loaded. To max out the 10mm spec you need expensive boutique ammo or you have to handload yourself.

I'm this guy No idea if it's possible with this or not, I'm gonna start researching. I didn't even realize .40 to .357 was a thing, and now I need to know everything.

I buy 40 at 20 cpr delivered. ( target sports USA) 9mm is even less. This is usa made brass case. If the cheaper 9mm get you to practice 30% more, that a pretty good argument. I’d be happy with a 9mm with premium ammo, but I feel the 40 gives a margin of safety on ammo performance.. I have a 40 in the truck, nightstand, and for EDC. I also have a subcompact as a paperweight.

I don’t need a anything bigger in the woods here, and no defensive auto would satisfy me in AK ( I keep a 4570 there- don’t bother with the 44 anymore)

Not taking anything away from 45 GAP or 357 sig, but I’m not a fan of rare calibers- and the double stack 45/10 mm glocks are too large to easially conceal.

>I buy 40 at 20 cpr delivered. ( target sports USA)
What load? just checked their website and the cheapest showing for me is 26cpr before shipping.

Corbon and now Federal and Speer make their best offerings in 135gr 155gr and 155gr respectively.

>care to support that with something other than paper performance figures like ft/lbs and fps
Go on.
>Federal and Speer make their best offerings in 155gr
You mean gold dots and HSTs? how so? Who uses them and how do they objectively outperform comparable 180gr offerings?

Then they did the same thing with .40 and switched to 9mm.

More energy transfer with also better penetration.

>more energy transfer means better
>.40 S&W
Oh yea, and what exactly does the energy transfer do? Liquify organs?
>better penetration.
Gonna need some citations friend.

Also can't help but notice that you didn't list any real world users of these "best offerings"

Oh yea, and what exactly does the energy transfer do? Liquify organs?

No, it causes pain and trauma to tissue. More energy mean the victim of the shot is likely to feel it more.

>Also can't help but notice that you didn't list any real world users of these "best offerings"

Because I am not an autist

>and trauma to tissue
Surely this is based off of scholarly documents and studies by qualified researchers or some other sort of verifiable evidence instead of simply your own opinions, right? Would you care to cite those sources showing that the difference in terms of FPE over time and distance in the comparison in question would in fact produce greater trauma?
>I don't have any sources to show that this is a commonly used or accepted load
Wow, how strange that nobody is using this clearly superior top of the line style of load when there are many LEA users of the heavier ones. How unusual that they would not opt for the demonstrably superior loading that offers improved trauma and "makes the victim of the shot feel it more". I wonder why.

By the by, what exactly is your definition of "top of the line" when it comes to this sort of thing anyways?

I like my glock 17 with the 33 round stick mags ya fuckin butt muncher

Again, I am not an Autist.

.40 is the best hands down, more energy than 45 and 9mm and more capacity than 45

So what you're saying is that it's the superior load because you say so? It has more ftlbs which causes more trauma and according to you more penetration neither of which you can prove in any way, shape, or form, but you don't need to since it's *your* opinion and we should all just take you at your word on an anonymous fish scale quilting forum.

0/10, that's literally max not an argument territory. You didn't even bother to post one of the typical previously debunked pro energy sources but instead opted for "just cuz". Sad.

.40 penetrates just as much as 9mm and its a bigger bullet. if you complain about "muh recoil" you need to shoot more and stop being a pussy

Doesn't really matter. Go with capacity in every case. Every pistol round not ending in "magnum" or not starting with "10mm" and ending in "auto" is weak shit and a doctor given any old gunshot victim wouldn't be able to tell a 45 from a 40 from a 9 without retrieving the bullet. Organic lifeforms aren't ballistics gel, an organic lifeform is a flesh sack lined with slime that contains calcium structures and other slimy flesh sacks. You'll get more done with ample powder and a better bullet than hague cuckvention ball ammo or walmart spec hollow points than worrying about how big it is. And more bullets, because most of an organic lifeform is non vital and they will survive long enough to kill you if you don't destroy the heart or the central nervous system.

Capacity is only a valid argument against .45 because most guns are still lowcap single-stack mags. The capacity differences between 9mm, .40 and 10mm are negligible in modern guns.

No I didn't say that you obtuse ass. I said its superior because of its energy and penetration.

If your gonna carry 40 carry 10mm otherwise carry 9. 40 is trash

NC bro?

I was honestly just being autistic playing around. I really dont give a shit about what people carry
Yes sir, Mecklenburg county.

Soooo many niggers.

>Carbine
.40 should build more pressure with a heavier bullet though a longer barrel.

Fuck dude, I know. I'm trying to move back to upstate SC in the next year or two. Its crazy, everytime I leave my house, even in one of the nice parts of Charlotte, the moment you get to any busy main road its nothing but Mexicans that don't speak English, homeless, and last but not least, niggers.

I own Glocks chambered in .380, 9mm and .40S&W, and I carry all of them. Additionally, I own a couple other handguns chambered in 9mm, as well as some pistols chambered in .22lr and one in .32ACP. They are all good rounds. When someone owns just one handgun caliber, I think they get defensive because they've conflated their personal decision with a "best" decision, for "everybody." Typical non-arguments they parrot are as follows:

>9mm is THE SAME as .40
>.40 is ACTUALLY WEAKER than 9mm
>.40 is the same as .45, you just get like 2 or 3 extra, which isn't enough to matter, no biggie!!!
>there is no difference between ANY handgun calibers
>muh gel tests
>muh doctors opinions
>it's hard to shoot
>it's a "high pressure" round (but 9mm isn't)
>it's higher velocity than 9mm
>it's a compromise round (but 9mm isn't)
>speaking in meme nonsense, using words like "stronk" and "xboxhueg"
>all calibers are the same as 9mm...EXCEPT FOR 10MM, WHICH IS WAYYYYYY BETTER THAN ALL OF THEM AND WAY MORE POWERFUL THAN .40 WHICH IS FOR BITCHES!!
>"LOL, .40 is just a neutered 10mm for women! Hahaha!" Meanwhile, *carries 9mm*

In reality, .40 does things that 9mm is not suited for. It fires a projectile at about the same velocity as 9mm, but the projectile is about 50% heavier. In terminal ballistics, that translates to 50% more momentum, which is important for retaining velocity after passing through a barrier. It's also important for more penetration when using solid bullets. There are lots of situations where this might come into play in real life. Gunfights where the attacker is behind cover obviously, but people don't often realize that bones inside the human body are a hard barrier as well. Vital organs might be behind those bones, so the projectile that can pass through the bone and retain more velocity is going to be more effective. And while 10mm does exist, it is nice to know that .40S&W is a lot closer to 10mm ballistics than 9mm is, for large wild animal defense.

Move a little north. Im at the foothills in caldwell county. Cheap land and barely any diversity. Where do you shoot there? Indoor ranges have to get old after a while

Blackstone. Before my sister moved to florida, I would go to where she lived (where I grew up) and go shooting outside on their property a few times a month. The indoor ranges do get old after a while desu but its more for socializing than anything because I go to all the little social gathering events they host and what not. I lived in Crossnore (Avery county) for almost a year and I can it was really peaceful. That's another option I've been looking into. Any good places out your way with a cheap house or double wide on some private land out of city limits? You obviously get none of that here consindering Charlotte annexed the entire county of Mecklenburg

bump

Love my .40. Just bought a police trade in- honestly doesn’t look like it’s been shot. P226 desk model. Going to shoot on Saturday

Enjoy man. .40 is a great round and is also fun to shoot. Nice find with the pistol as well. I was going the route of a police trade in but just ended up sticking with a new glock 22 as I was worried it would best to absolute shit. What website did you use? I might pick one up in the near future to add to my collection.

Because it is.
.40s&w has absolutely no appreciable benefit over 9mm in any category, but 9mm has more capacity and lighter recoil.

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>What are ribs
Ballistics gel is useless because it doesn't simulate hard objects like bone. Larger and faster calibers will have an advantage in real life.
>youtube.com/watch?v=LTTDgZZZFa0
He recreated the Miami Dade shot and even with all the improved "bullet technology" that 9mm proponents are constantly screaming about, 9mm still didn't have sufficient penetration to kill a target from the side.

The fact is the FBI switched to 9mm for one single reason, female officers. They couldn't handle 10mm so they invented .40S&W. now agents can't even handle .40 so they have to fall back to 9mm. The FBI is pathetic. Also the capacity argument is silly, any full sized handgun with a double stack magazine will offer sufficient capacity. The capacity argument only applies to shit like the 1911, or very small CCWs.

>.40s&w has absolutely no appreciable benefit over 9mm i

first one